STA

[MrBoDangles]

Mr Bo, three posts about STA today before 7:45, you must be really bored

You had three posts over an hour span two days ago.

St. Paul Abandoneer Press < Hockey Forum

[eastsideguy]

I was bored, but at least it was on more than one topic

[The X]

What everyone defending STA here seems to miss is the fact that if there was still a one class system, they would still be getting kicked around like a tin can (as MNmade put it) because the allure of the easier class A state tournament birth would not exist and most of these players would not have chosen to go there.

The class split was not implemented for the private schools to take over. It was done so small communities like Silver Bay, Red Wing, and the like would have as good of a shot to see St. Paul as Eden Prairie or Duluth East.

This actually worked for the first few years, but since then the private schools have taken over. Its not a coincidence that even though there have only been 10-12 private schools in class A that 3 or 4 of them are in the state tournament every year as opposed only 4 or 5 of the 75 public schools.

These teams all belong in AA. Period.

The bottom line IMO really is this: St. Thomas is playing in the class that they were assigned to play. I agree and most others agree that they should opt up to AA and play at that level, even most of the alumni would agree off the record and the players would too. The "A" level was implemented to give the Red Wings, Albert Leas, Thief River Falls, etc... a chance to win a small school title. For the last 10 years the "A" class has been dominated by the privates no doubt, there is no denying that nor do I think even the privates would argue that. But.....the schools directors choose not to opt up for business reasons, and, the MSHL really dont care who wins and simply don't have an answer to fix the system nor do they care to. This will not change in the near future or ever unless these schools decide to opt up on their own. The reason the privates are winning is no secret, everyone knows why. Most of the kids on STA were all stars in their age groups, I know that because I coached several of them on a top 'AAA' team during the summers. This problem is not the kids fault, it is squarely in the hands of the decision makers of these schools, most of whom have never laced up a skate in their lives. So.....until the school either opts up or the MSHL changes their policies, STA is doing nothing wrong by playing at the "A" level. HSHW has very fairly laid these facts out and is 100% correct in his observations regarding the issue.

[TTpuckster]

I for one, do not care of STA or any of the private schools opt up.
The Class A schools struggle to win the Class A title very often, but it does happen.
It gives a small town program something to strive for, and, in some cases will help them to become better programs.

And, it also creates the adversarial environment that usually makes for a great championship game like the one this year.

In the end, IMO, it will make for a continual improvement in the small school programs and a more competitive tourney.

[HShockeywatcher]

What everyone defending STA here seems to miss is the fact that if there was still a one class system, they would still be getting kicked around like a tin can (as MNmade put it) because the allure of the easier class A state tournament birth would not exist and most of these players would not have chosen to go there.

The class split was not implemented for the private schools to take over. It was done so small communities like Silver Bay, Red Wing, and the like would have as good of a shot to see St. Paul as Eden Prairie or Duluth East.

This actually worked for the first few years, but since then the private schools have taken over. Its not a coincidence that even though there have only been 10-12 private schools in class A that 3 or 4 of them are in the state tournament every year as opposed only 4 or 5 of the 75 public schools.

These teams all belong in AA. Period.

The bottom line IMO really is this: St. Thomas is playing in the class that they were assigned to play. I agree and most others agree that they should opt up to AA and play at that level, even most of the alumni would agree off the record and the players would too. The "A" level was implemented to give the Red Wings, Albert Leas, Thief River Falls, etc... a chance to win a small school title. For the last 10 years the "A" class has been dominated by the privates no doubt, there is no denying that nor do I think even the privates would argue that. But.....the schools directors choose not to opt up for business reasons, and, the MSHL really dont care who wins and simply don't have an answer to fix the system nor do they care to. This will not change in the near future or ever unless these schools decide to opt up on their own. The reason the privates are winning is no secret, everyone knows why. Most of the kids on STA were all stars in their age groups, I know that because I coached several of them on a top 'AAA' team during the summers. This problem is not the kids fault, it is squarely in the hands of the decision makers of these schools, most of whom have never laced up a skate in their lives. So.....until the school either opts up or the MSHL changes their policies, STA is doing nothing wrong by playing at the "A" level. HSHW has very fairly laid these facts out and is 100% correct in his observations regarding the issue.

Very nice post.

What continues to annoy me is the phenomenon is MN High School Hockey that your class has something to do with ability (and somehow integrity).

Personally, I would like to see them up simply because it would probably help the program out a bit. Beyond that, I don't mind. What I'd prefer is for teams to stop opting up and have two amazing tournaments.

At the end of the day, a vast majority of people go to public schools, as it should be. Most of them are ignorant to what goes on in private schools and disrespect them out of what is usually a friendly rivalry. I would guess that regardless of what happens, public program supporters will always complain about private schools.

If the 5 or so schools that most people want to see in AA all opted up, their programs improved, there were more private schools in the AA tournament year in and year out and (maybe) they gained a AA dominance they'd had in A, would they be more respected? I highly doubt it.

[MrBoDangles]

I'm not jealous of STA because...what's there to be jealous of? A school with academics not even as good as the public I will send my kids to? A school with phony military requirements that make them look like posers in the public eye? A school that won't play in the big tournament with the big boys? The school I went to and the district my kids are in just won two out of the last three big boy state tournaments. The Bantam A team is ranked tops in the state. Notice that there is no nine page thread tearing apart EP after they won. Wake up buddy, STA looks like crap playing in the A tournament when they play a AA schedule all year.

You mention one thing that isn't true and another that isn't not of huge importance, overall, to those associated with the school. EP has great academics, no one will debate that.

EP staying as one school has so much more to do with the quality of the school and the environment it creates than athletic success. I've been involved with EP schools and I can tell you the plan all along was to stay as one school. This graduating class is the biggest they will have in at least 12 years, the current freshmen are about 100 smaller. The fact that you think the EP school district chooses to stay as one big school because of sports is simply embarrassing. Not to mention that Wayzata has now passed EP in students.

I cannot disagree with much of what has been said. Similar to how LV was before the split, they are very dominant in sports, have an amazing HS, a very large HS, and in a very affluent area . Why it is still only one is anyone's guess.

Okay buddy I'm not gonna sit here and argue with an internet einstein but from someone who has attended the school, has kids that will attend the school, and knows students at the school, I can tell you that it works. There are great teachers at EP and great opportunities provided to kids that you can't get at smaller schools. Yes, some kids don't make a varsity squad, but if that is really the most important thing to you than go somewhere else. Minnesota has open enrollment and there are smaller schools all over the place. I don't need to hear from some jealous idiot from St. Paul that the most successful school in the state in sports and academics isn't a good place, because it is.
I would argue that Washington County just wasted a ton of money that could have been better spent improving the environment at the two existing schools. You are someone with no firsthand experience in Eden Prairie schools and are pretty much throwing around a bunch of BS.

If you wonder why, refer to the last of 4 points. No disrespect. A great place, met students, walked the halls, great place. I, for one, have no issue, with anything apart from all the slander and ignorance of my alma mater. You graduated from a great school and many will after you.


You, and all out there, are okay with schools where it is okay to attend if your parents lived elsewhere and moved so they could send you there, but you are not okay if parents live where they want and send their kids where they want? Seems like a huge burden you, and the high school league, place on parents.

No one has lifted a finger toward New Ulm Cathedral who is allowed to do everything St Thomas Academy has done but has failed to do. The general public is only upset with private schools if they are successful. If they are not good, you all hate them. It should be the same year in and year out. St Thomas didn't become a school that needed to recruit to keep their doors open in the last 10 years, that has been forever. But the hate has only been recently.

I have hated the Yankees always. They do things no other team does or will do. I hated them last year, as well as they years they've won. Why? Because of what they represent. It doesn't matter how they do, it is how they do it.
The difference with the private school hate is that it only comes out only when they do well. The Yankees give us all a reason to hate them all the time, and they probably always will. They have many trophies. In history, the private schools to not, for either. Period.

If my kids access at hockey, the class sizes drop, the school violence decreases, and the graduation rates increase in Minneapolis public schools increase, I will gladly send my kids there, otherwise I will, more likely than not, not send them there. Similar to how our country's President is not enrolling his children in the public school system in which he lives.

In my opinion, it is the burden of the local public school system to use local tax dollars wisely and improve incentive to keep locals local. The common opinion is that it is the responsibility of private schools who rely on numbers to make their product less attractive. I continue to wonder why I am wrong...and why St Thomas won't be in 2A next year.

The Yankees are a perfect example. Now make it even more drastic and put them in the minors.......... There you have your STA

[Night Train]

St. Thomas loses quite a bit to graduation so I don't think they'll be as strong next season.

[HockeyMN1]

Nobody on here is jealous?... Yea ok Sorry.. So it sounds to me like your ok with STA recruiting as long as they opt up to AA and do it there just like Hill and Benilde do? Are we really suppose to buy that? Is that really your argument? I'd be willing to bet your probably jealous because they have a great school and the Vannelli's have built a winning tradition and your just one of those people that don't like a winner.
STA proves year in and year out they can play with the big boys as evividenced by schedule they play. As i said earlier they are right where they belong..

I'm not jealous of STA because...what's there to be jealous of? A school with academics not even as good as the public I will send my kids to? A school with phony military requirements that make them look like posers in the public eye? A school that won't play in the big tournament with the big boys? The school I went to and the district my kids are in just won two out of the last three big boy state tournaments. The Bantam A team is ranked tops in the state. Notice that there is no nine page thread tearing apart EP after they won. Wake up buddy, STA looks like crap playing in the A tournament when they play a AA schedule all year.

I'm going to link a couple things that you can mull over.



First, in the 6th paragraph it states the average SAT and ACT scores for Eden Prairie. I'll summarize:
98% graduate from high school
94% attend college
ACT average for seniors: 23.8
SAT verbal: 595/635 (depending on website)
SAT math: 612/610 (depending on website)
http://realestatetwincities.net/eden-pr ... s-isd-272/



Here is St. Thomas Academy's for the year 2010:
100% graduate
98% attend college (2 are playing junior hockey)
ACT average for seniors: 28.4
SAT Critical Reading: 646
Math: 655
Writing: 640

Flemming, Reid, and Schroeder made the honor roll (3.33-3.66).


http://www.cadets.com/page/331

http://www.cadets.com/files/pg331/HRoll_Sem1_201011.pdf

http://www.mnschools.com/SchoolFinder/D ... s/f272.htm

I'm not sure if you are aware, but most colleges look at these standardized test scores as a metric to use for college admittance.

Another internet einstein here. Eden Prairie is a public school with over 3000 students, STA is a private with around 550 (so would be 1100 with girls) and a fairly hefty tuition, of course STA will have higher average test scores. Again, I don't need to "prove" to anyone the academic strength of Eden Prairie High School, it taught me well enough to score well above both of those averages. By the way, along with being state champions the last two out of three years, EP has also been academic state champions in their last two trips. The team GPA is 3.85, Kyle Rau held a 4.0 leading into this year.

[HShockeywatcher]

St. Thomas loses quite a bit to graduation so I don't think they'll be as strong next season.

Herein lies a huge hole I see. The issue isn't with private schools, it's with private schools when they do well. Had Hermantown won, all people would be talking about is how the public school beat the private school.

I haven't heard any complaints about New Ulm Cathedral, or even Totino Grace for that matter. They are evil if they win.

[MrBoDangles]

Is this the odyssey of the mind forum?

[MrBoDangles]

St. Thomas loses quite a bit to graduation so I don't think they'll be as strong next season.

Herein lies a huge hole I see. The issue isn't with private schools, it's with private schools when they do well. Had Hermantown won, all people would be talking about is how the public school beat the private school.

I haven't heard any complaints about New Ulm Cathedral, or even Totino Grace for that matter. They are evil if they win.

I'm SURE most other A program would make the move if......
-They were consistently in the top 10 of the all school rankings (AA/A)
-Played at an elite level in the Schwan Cup
-Felt confident in scheduling Shattuck St. Mary and Delbarton
-They were the overwhelming favorites for four years running
-Played one of toughest schedules out there
- etc
- etc
Holy family moves up and STA stays down speaks volumes.

I thought you said that STA should move up?

[HShockeywatcher]

A school with academics not even as good as the public I will send my kids to? A school with phony military requirements that make them look like posers in the public eye?

I'm going to link a couple things that you can mull over.



First, in the 6th paragraph it states the average SAT and ACT scores for Eden Prairie. I'll summarize:
98% graduate from high school
94% attend college
ACT average for seniors: 23.8
SAT verbal: 595/635 (depending on website)
SAT math: 612/610 (depending on website)
http://realestatetwincities.net/eden-pr ... s-isd-272/



Here is St. Thomas Academy's for the year 2010:
100% graduate
98% attend college (2 are playing junior hockey)
ACT average for seniors: 28.4
SAT Critical Reading: 646
Math: 655
Writing: 640

Flemming, Reid, and Schroeder made the honor roll (3.33-3.66).


http://www.cadets.com/page/331

http://www.cadets.com/files/pg331/HRoll_Sem1_201011.pdf

http://www.mnschools.com/SchoolFinder/D ... s/f272.htm

I'm not sure if you are aware, but most colleges look at these standardized test scores as a metric to use for college admittance.

Another internet einstein here. Eden Prairie is a public school with over 3000 students, STA is a private with around 550 (so would be 1100 with girls) and a fairly hefty tuition, of course STA will have higher average test scores. Again, I don't need to "prove" to anyone the academic strength of Eden Prairie High School, it taught me well enough to score well above both of those averages. By the way, along with being state champions the last two out of three years, EP has also been academic state champions in their last two trips. The team GPA is 3.85, Kyle Rau held a 4.0 leading into this year.

The issue is the statement you made. No one would ever disagree with Eden Prairie being a great public school, probably one of the best in the state (nation even I'd say), but to claim that certain school is not as good is just silly. Especially when you follow it up with the exact opposite statement.

[stpaul]

Earlier he said:

The academics there are at best on par with the big metro publics

Then he said:

of course STA will have higher average test scores

Then he got mad and said:

Another internet einstein here.

Stop using numbers and fact. They confuse and upset him.

[HockeyMN1]

Earlier he said:

The academics there are at best on par with the big metro publics

Then he said:

of course STA will have higher average test scores

Then he got mad and said:

Another internet einstein here.

Stop using numbers and fact. They confuse and upset him.

You obviously don't understand what I'm saying. Of course the STA averages will be higher when you have 100% affluent, driven kids. The education there is no better than Eden Prairie, you could learn just as much for free in essentially all SW metro publics.

[deacon]

Yeah, because STA has 100% affluent students, and affluent people are ALWAYS going to be smarter than a slightly less affluent student. Am I right?!?!

[deacon]

And that gap in ACT scores is pretty significant.

[HockeyMN1]

Yeah, because STA has 100% affluent students, and affluent people are ALWAYS going to be smarter than a slightly less affluent student. Am I right?!?!

No, but the average will be higher.

[old goalie85]

HOCKEYMN-are you saying that the sw metro public schools are better schools than the North East metro public schools??

[eastside hockey]

The constant bickering about our school is smarter and we are better, is rediculous. Those who are calling for STA to move up to AA only have to argue the Point about Hockey. Most of us "public school dummies", dont care if you want to leave the public school community and pay for your childs education! Horray for you! Now to the point. this forum is about High School Hockey and competition. The only point to be made here is that A majority of STA's players come from traditionally stong youth programs around the Metro area that are feeders for succesful AA high schools. On this point alone, STA should move up and compete at the AA. This is not all inlcusive to just STA. Any Metro area Private school who draws there players from large AA feeder programs should step up. This has nothing to do with jealousy. Get off your High horse and stop making excuses. I suppose you are going to tell me that i'm jealous, poor and not as affluent as you are now. My son graduates from a public school this year ad is extreamely happy that i didnt remove him from his friends and local school. By the way, since you are being ignorant about money and opportunities, I could have sent 5 kids to STA. Just because we disagree with you, doesn't mean we are all poor, morons that couldn't fit in with your high society. Enough said. Those of you here to defend STA to the hilt arent on here in the better interest of MN HS Hockey. you have your own agenda and will never agree or give up your useless point.

[deacon]

The constant bickering about our school is smarter and we are better, is rediculous. Those who are calling for STA to move up to AA only have to argue the Point about Hockey. Most of us "public school dummies", dont care if you want to leave the public school community and pay for your childs education! Horray for you! Now to the point. this forum is about High School Hockey and competition. The only point to be made here is that A majority of STA's players come from traditionally stong youth programs around the Metro area that are feeders for succesful AA high schools. On this point alone, STA should move up and compete at the AA. This is not all inlcusive to just STA. Any Metro area Private school who draws there players from large AA feeder programs should step up. This has nothing to do with jealousy. Get off your High horse and stop making excuses. I suppose you are going to tell me that i'm jealous, poor and not as affluent as you are now. My son graduates from a public school this year ad is extreamely happy that i didnt remove him from his friends and local school. By the way, since you are being ignorant about money and opportunities, I could have sent 5 kids to STA. Just because we disagree with you, doesn't mean we are all poor, morons that couldn't fit in with your high society. Enough said. Those of you here to defend STA to the hilt arent on here in the better interest of MN HS Hockey. you have your own agenda and will never agree or give up your useless point.

I have a feeling that this is directed at me, and that's fine. I only brought up the education because someone else said something along the lines that the education received at STA wasn't on the same level as other places, which I didn't agree with. I never wanted to imply that anyone was poor or someone else was more affluent than the next guy. I rarely see STA defendants ever bring up the issue of money, it is usually instigated by someone else. To say that everyone that attends STA is affluent is just flat out wrong, STA gives more than $2mm a year in tuition scholarships.

[eastside hockey]

The constant bickering about our school is smarter and we are better, is rediculous. Those who are calling for STA to move up to AA only have to argue the Point about Hockey. Most of us "public school dummies", dont care if you want to leave the public school community and pay for your childs education! Horray for you! Now to the point. this forum is about High School Hockey and competition. The only point to be made here is that A majority of STA's players come from traditionally stong youth programs around the Metro area that are feeders for succesful AA high schools. On this point alone, STA should move up and compete at the AA. This is not all inlcusive to just STA. Any Metro area Private school who draws there players from large AA feeder programs should step up. This has nothing to do with jealousy. Get off your High horse and stop making excuses. I suppose you are going to tell me that i'm jealous, poor and not as affluent as you are now. My son graduates from a public school this year ad is extreamely happy that i didnt remove him from his friends and local school. By the way, since you are being ignorant about money and opportunities, I could have sent 5 kids to STA. Just because we disagree with you, doesn't mean we are all poor, morons that couldn't fit in with your high society. Enough said. Those of you here to defend STA to the hilt arent on here in the better interest of MN HS Hockey. you have your own agenda and will never agree or give up your useless point.

I have a feeling that this is directed at me, and that's fine. I only brought up the education because someone else said something along the lines that the education received at STA wasn't on the same level as other places, which I didn't agree with. I never wanted to imply that anyone was poor or someone else was more affluent than the next guy. I rarely see STA defendants ever bring up the issue of money, it is usually instigated by someone else. To say that everyone that attends STA is affluent is just flat out wrong, STA gives more than $2mm a year in tuition scholarships.

Wrong, this was not just directed toward you. There are multiple posters who are wasteing valuable forum space going off on tangients. Decon, do you disagree with the with how STA's Hockey team should be looked at in respect with where their players are coming from? Sibley HS was very competitive back in the day. Now they are bottem feeders. Most of their players back in the day all came from a program called Mend Eagan Where do you think all of the kids from that same area go now. That is a situation where we can say lets see what happens in ten years. In ten years STA will still be getting most of its players from large AA feeder programs. This point and this point alone should give the STA AD a simple answer about where the HS team should be competing. Nobody hates the kids, they just dont want to see a bunch of quality A banams from large AA feeder programs dominate small town kids.

[blueblood]

As long as AA schools outside of the Classic Suburban continue to schedule STA this issue will only get worse. STA's decision to play other prep schools doesn't bother me.

However, If I were a head HS coach of a AA team, I would not play STA until they decide to move into AA.

So, I think some fault resides with teams like Tonka who continually schedule STA.

Tonka doesn't need STA on their schedule. But STA needs teams like Tonka on their schedule so they can tell their "recruits" and more importantly, their parents, that we play against top teams so your son's hockey skills will not diminish.

[eastside hockey]

As long as AA schools outside of the Classic Suburban continue to schedule STA this issue will only get worse. STA's decision to play other prep schools doesn't bother me.

However, If I were a head HS coach of a AA team, I would not play STA until they decide to move into AA.

So, I think some fault resides with teams like Tonka who continually schedule STA.

Tonka doesn't need STA on their schedule. But STA needs teams like Tonka on their schedule so they can tell their "recruits" and more importantly, their parents, that we play against top teams so your son's hockey skills will not diminish.

Agree completely with yo BB. Thats why I also pay no attention to their record or accomplishments. Bring it to AA and gain the respect due to a great hockey team from Minnesota High school level.

Great point!

[HockeyMN1]

HOCKEYMN-are you saying that the sw metro public schools are better schools than the North East metro public schools??

No, I really have no experience with them so I can't say. I would assume all suburban publics are about the same level, but I know there are some very high preforming schools in the SW metro. Whatever, I'm done now. This is a hockey forum, STA should be in AA.

[deacon]

Not all of their talent comes from AA feeder programs but a lot of it definitely does. Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about the argument that because the majority of the players come AA schools they should therefore play AA hockey. Most of the time the argument goes a little something like this: STA is private school, they recruit, they win, it's a crime they're in A.

Out of curiosity, I went through my old Kaydet's looking for some old records (I'm young, so it's pretty recent). Their record was so bad that they didn't even list it but I think they won maybe 5 games. When I was there, the swimming and diving team was in the middle of winning 8 out of 9 sate titles in class A while producing several All-Americans every year. They never opted up and I doubt they ever considered it. If that is a sign for anything, this argument of whether the hockey team should move up could last quite a while.

As an alumnus of the Academy, I would like to see the hockey team play AA hockey but I'm not going to bothered if they don't. What a lot of people fail to understand is that while coaches and players would like to play AA, the administration doesn't (although that may change in the future, who knows). A shift from class A to class AA would signify a shift in the priorities of the school, that being athletics over academics, which can never happen at a school like STA. I don't think, however, that STA is trophy chasing like many here seem to think. Sure, everyone wants to produce a winner but at STA winning takes a backseat to the founding 4 principles of the school. There may be something to be said about the administration wanting to do this on their own accord. I highly, highly doubt that they will let themselves be pushed around by media types and message boards. If they are ever going to move up, they're are going to do it on their own time. Until this happens, people are just going to have to live it. It's of no surprise to me that the alumni of STA defend the position of an institution that gave them so much.