D6 Refs

[hiptzech]

The problem I see in D6, and elsewhere, is that the relationship is adversarial. It shouldn't be. The refs can do whatever they want. So now we're clear on that. The coaches need to work with the refs to help their players understand the rules and play within them. It's never the refs. Do they make an occasional mistake? Have coaches or players ever made a mistake? Everyone (team mates, coaches and parents) wants to blame someone other than the player that used bad judgement and did something that was a risk and got caught. Don't do it. There are kids on every team with zero penalties and another with 15. So, it's obvious you can play without getting any. Just do it.

We're trying to play a fun game that is best played 5 on 5. The competition out there is to difficult to beat anyone shorthanded so the goal has to be zero penalties or you'll just mark another in the loss column. Instead I see players making mistakes, getting penalties, getting upset, and the coach acting poorly and setting a poor example. Coaches need to back the ref, sit the kid, and send a clear message to the player that penalties are bad for the team and hurt the entire team. If the coach screams and waves his arms the kids think it's ok. It's not. Coaches and players should rarely even speak with the refs. If the game is played correct the refs are invisible. Stop blaming refs and bless them for the difficult job they have. If you stand back and watch the behavior of the kids and coaches you'll generally see they're the ones behaving poorly. Not half the time, 95% of the time.

Nice Post. It's good to see others getting it..

[Fire and Ice]

Why is it that D6 has refs call more penalties than any other district in the state of Minnesota? Then have the audacity to consider themselves the model of perfection from the teams in their district, to their district director, and finally their ref in chief "making Larry, Curly, and Moe" interpret the rules a certain way.

Most of us are baffled and so are the teams in D6...just ask them.

[hiptzech]

I don’t know much about the referees and credentials and all that. It is my understanding in D6 that refs have to have some advanced training to ref at the A level in Bantams and Peewees. I do know that because the game flows faster, the refs at the A levels have to work harder to keep up with the calls.

It part you are correct and your assumptions typically would be right on. However, not all of the games are spread out to those that have the training and wheels to get the job done. You can read into the rest, do some additional assuming and you will figure it out.
Additionally, it is a general assumption to think that because the players at the A level are faster that the refs need to be faster, this is not the case. Knowing the game and being able to anticipate the flow is more critical than foot speed. It's actually gets easier to officiate the upper levels as the players know the game and the play goes in a more predictable pattern. There are times during the higher level games that become “track meets”, however these times are not sustained and the refs can typically recuperate.

In a sense, this is the source of my questioning the D6 rule that forces D6 teams to use D6 referees (whatever that means) in home scrimmages and tourneys. Does D6 have enough refs that are capable enough to referee all the games going on during the simultaneous play at two different sites with five rinks all active for three days?

Again, Yes. But the games need to be spread out to those that have the training and wheels to get the job done.

For the Thanksgiving holiday tourneys in Burnsville and Eden Prairie, at any given time during the day, approximately 13-14 D6 refs certified for A level would be needed on the ice. If each group of 13-14 refs worked two successive games (call that one shift), and then was done for the day, 6 shifts or 78-82 refs would be needed to support both tourneys with D6 refs.

The association has a policy. When scheduling tourneys, the limit is 3 in a row, with a total of 4/day, basically 2 of your “shifts”. Typically in the 3-ref system, all three officials will rotate between lines and ref’ing.

If the refs try to take on more games, the more tired they are and the more inconsistent the calls. So are we seeing tired refs because they are being overused or does D6 “bring up” refs that have not refereed at the A level to make quoted?

That is why the policy is in place. Did I mention that there are additional qualified officials that have the wheels to get the job done?

[QuackerTracker]

I don’t know much about the referees and credentials and all that. It is my understanding in D6 that refs have to have some advanced training to ref at the A level in Bantams and Peewees. I do know that because the game flows faster, the refs at the A levels have to work harder to keep up with the calls.

In a sense, this is the source of my questioning the D6 rule that forces D6 teams to use D6 referees (whatever that means) in home scrimmages and tourneys. Does D6 have enough refs that are capable enough to referee all the games going on during the simultaneous play at two different sites with five rinks all active for three days?

My concern is that the refs get tired. I have seen that happen. When they are tired they are out of position and guess on the call. For example, a tired ref will often call off-sides because he is inside the blue line along the boards near the top of the face off circle. He has lost his line of sight.

For the Thanksgiving holiday tourneys in Burnsville and Eden Prairie, at any given time during the day, approximately 13-14 D6 refs certified for A level would be needed on the ice. If each group of 13-14 refs worked two successive games (call that one shift), and then was done for the day, 6 shifts or 78-82 refs would be needed to support both tourneys with D6 refs.

If the refs try to take on more games, the more tired they are and the more inconsistent the calls. So are we seeing tired refs because they are being overused or does D6 “bring up” refs that have not refereed at the A level to make quoted?

By the way, the 78-82 numbers does not reflect total need during those three days since other D6 home games were being played. The mouth guard incidents at the Burnsville tourney maybe the result of overworked refs.

D6 currently has over 180 officials register. They are rated on a scale of 1-7 (7 being the highest). The scheduler tries to give guys 2 games in the morning with a break and 2 games in the evening or just 2 games in the afternoon if that's all they want to work. There are alway situations that come up the week before and we do sometimes get over worked.

Another note. There are no d6 league games scheduled the weekend after thanksgiving or the weekend after xmas to the end of new years weekend (except for a few Jr Gold league) for this reason. Teams are also told that they may not get refs for scrimmages during these weekends due to the amount of games

[Leave It To Beaver]

One rule change that I believe has put the biggest strain on the coach/official relationship is the "Zero Tolerance" rule; I call it the "No Accountability" rule. Officials do not have to explain why they made a certain call and the coaches do not get to question the officials, give them their version of what they think happened or ask for an interpretation. It has been my experience with D-6 officials that when you try to talk to them they give you the hand and skate to the opposite side of the rink. If you call across the rink to get their attention you end up with a bench penalty for raising your voice or yelling at them; and at that point it is all about them and proving to the coach that they are in charge. Before this rule was added to the books, officials/coaches would talk to eachother; they would explain their version of what happened, maybe both would vent and then they would agree to disagree and move on. A good official will always go over coach, talk and not take the coaches questioning personal. Finally, officials need to remember coaches never argue "Judgement" calls, they argue "Lack of judgement" calls!

[GreekChurch]

The problem I see in D6, and elsewhere, is that the relationship is adversarial. It shouldn't be. The refs can do whatever they want. So now we're clear on that. The coaches need to work with the refs to help their players understand the rules and play within them. It's never the refs. Do they make an occasional mistake? Have coaches or players ever made a mistake? Everyone (team mates, coaches and parents) wants to blame someone other than the player that used bad judgement and did something that was a risk and got caught. Don't do it. There are kids on every team with zero penalties and another with 15. So, it's obvious you can play without getting any. Just do it.

We're trying to play a fun game that is best played 5 on 5. The competition out there is to difficult to beat anyone shorthanded so the goal has to be zero penalties or you'll just mark another in the loss column. Instead I see players making mistakes, getting penalties, getting upset, and the coach acting poorly and setting a poor example. Coaches need to back the ref, sit the kid, and send a clear message to the player that penalties are bad for the team and hurt the entire team. If the coach screams and waves his arms the kids think it's ok. It's not. Coaches and players should rarely even speak with the refs. If the game is played correct the refs are invisible. Stop blaming refs and bless them for the difficult job they have. If you stand back and watch the behavior of the kids and coaches you'll generally see they're the ones behaving poorly. Not half the time, 95% of the time.

Observer, you are absolutley right. The refs in D6, and elsewhere do control the games, and can do whatever they want. I have seen it too many times - even when I don't have personel interest in the game, where a ref will quickly determine the outcome of a game. They will let a blatant infraction go, much to the dismay of everyone who witnessed it. The coach will question it. He is told to shut his yap, and the next four penalties go against them. Game ends 5-1, and the team, the coach, the fans are frustated, and feel the refs treated them unfairly. Like I said I have seen this over, and over. How can you blame them for being discouraged?

[pioneer]

One rule change that I believe has put the biggest strain on the coach/official relationship is the "Zero Tolerance" rule; I call it the "No Accountability" rule. Officials do not have to explain why they made a certain call and the coaches do not get to question the officials, give them their version of what they think happened or ask for an interpretation. It has been my experience with D-6 officials that when you try to talk to them they give you the hand and skate to the opposite side of the rink. If you call across the rink to get their attention you end up with a bench penalty for raising your voice or yelling at them; and at that point it is all about them and proving to the coach that they are in charge. Before this rule was added to the books, officials/coaches would talk to eachother; they would explain their version of what happened, maybe both would vent and then they would agree to disagree and move on. A good official will always go over coach, talk and not take the coaches questioning personal. Finally, officials need to remember coaches never argue "Judgement" calls, they argue "Lack of judgement" calls!

Very insightful, Beaver. Good assessment.

I actually feel I can say what I feel for two reasons: 1) I have given it the "24 hour rule" (x 365) and 2) I am out of D6 coaching, so no fear of repercussions!

I haven't posted in probably two years. Mainly because I just didn't need the potential for backlash. I have coached at pretty much every A and B level, Squirts to Bantams over the last 10 years in D6. Look, this is the fact: there is no flow to the games, particularly at the A level where arguably there should be some. If you are reffing Bantam A, please, do these kids a favor and prepare them for high school hockey. A large percentage of the calls being made in these games will NEVER be called at the high school level. Absolutely there are games where there won't be flow that is entirely due to the goonery (okay, overactive hormones) of the participants. I am not talking about those contests (which, maybe surprisingly, are not too frequent). But countless times I have witnessed the flow of a game squeezed right out of the gate. And as a coach, you think I didn't warn the kids against performing any questionable act? Of course I did. And all this serves to do is put kids out there playing tentatively, which should not be the goal! They are supposed to play the game the right way, but with full-out passion! They should be allowed to "compete"! Gotta be honest here, I had kids tell me that the refs were making it "no fun" to play. And I am NOT talking about your typical talentless goons. They were thinking more about getting a penalty for some phantom or incidental contact than they were about trying to compete to win. And if that is what we are accomplishing as referees, then I must submit, we have failed.

To Beaver's comment: right on. It is impossible to discuss a call intelligently with the vast majority of the referees. Look. If the guy (coach) only wants to berate you (and yeah, I do know this happens), then light him up! He deserves it! The freakin' refs have a difficult job! But for chrissakes, give each coach ONE shot per game to see if you can talk to each other like human beings. Can't tell you how many times I was waved off when I genuinely wnated to understand the call. MOST of the time I wanted to know a penalty call so I could educate my kids on why they were called, NOT to berate the guy for calling it.

In the end I believe this is what has happened: too many coaches freaking out on a ref who has missed a call (it happens. Yes, I have been one of those idiots berating a ref over a call. Run my a** out if I do it). Refs get "thin skin" over this, are unwilling to talk to any coaches. The death spiral continues.

The solution: coaches - back off. Refs - do your job and TALK to the coaches. A little communication goes a LOOONG way.

BTW, not ALL refs are bad in D6, but I will have to fully admit that over the years they are as a lot the most consistently "poor" of all the districts. It was always a joy to get out of D6 for scrimmages/tourneys (even up North where the reffing wasn't always "equitable". They still let the kids PLAY).

Enough for now. Sorry I had to vent, but I've had a little "bottled up" if you couldn't tell....

[noConsistancy]

the inconsistency ( notice my login name ) is not a district issue
it is the inconsistency across the whole state. Every team every where
is playing in south,west,north,east districts every other night.

I haven't seen a D6 game get out of hand in quite some time (years)
but play in other random areas and suddenly peewee's and bantams's
are supposed to "play old time" smash hockey....? just my opinion....

My sons bantam b1 team recently played in a tournament
where 1 penalty was called for the entire game (trip)
and it was a blood bath out there. Forearms to the face mask
were as common as the clock ticking down. I saw alot of huge
marks all over 14yr kids legs and arms in the locker room after
the game - not to mention 4 kids with cuts. 1 penalty ?

I will agree that my son in D6 has been called for "head contact" on
very good checks where the opposing player crumbled downward
and forward and sure enough his helmet was certainly hit.
Usually it's called when a larger player crushes a smaller player.

I do often question the physical ability of some refs to keep up
with Bantam B1 or A players - we had a ref in the Bloomington Silver
Stick tourny that could not bend over to pick up a puck - he
always asked a player to pick it up. There should be "conditioning"
requirements. He called offsides from the opposite blue line quite
a few times - guess he needed a break.....

anyway - I enjoy the game so much i keep coming back
regardless of the refs. I always tell my son - they don't determine
who wins or loses - but they sure can control the anger level
of a game - and if they do that - my hat is off to them,
because i sure can't imagine taking all that abuse for $30-40 a game.

[bigcat]

I noticed that two district 6 officials are mentioned in the magazine this month -

Maybe they are qualified to work that next peewee B game at BIG2.

[inthestands]

This is a vicious cycle in each district, and one that continues to shrink the number of new officials coming on the scene.

All it takes is one coach that treats a young official poorly, and all of a sudden that one new ref that might be outstanding in a few years says heck with this crap, I'm going to flip burgers. There are extremes to each side, but we see this over and over again. If the official isn't doing a good job, trying to "fix" them during the game isn't usually a good option. I agree the open discussion avenue is a good one, but only if both sides are willing.

No argument there are people working games out there that shouldn't be. There are also coaches out there that shouldn't be. I've seen both sides of that equation, and one is no better than the other.

As for calling a Bantam A game similar to a High School game, I can tell you that if an official was caught doing this, they wouldn't be doing Bantam A games very long. Although the point is valid, the rules are quite different.

What should happen but probably won't, is the MSHSL and USA Hockey getting together in their rule book meetings to be more consistent between the two. Take the offside rules in each. We expect a 15 year old to play one way, and call games another. Doesn't make sense anyway you look at it, but it's a power struggle between the two. There are more examples, but I don't have the energy to post them all....

[observer]

Some serious bad coaching for the Edina Bantam A team. Anyone see the D6 Bantam A standings? Obviously poor player behavior, no discipline, and no repercussions for the guilty players as they must be consistently stupid. Coach no control? Kids no control?

http://www.district6hockey.net/

It's interesting as I watched Edina play Centennial in the State Tourney last year, fall down by 2 goals, and then totally lose they're focus, and the game, by sending a steady stream of knuckleheads to the penalty box. Great way to attempt a comeback.

This will hurt Edina when the D6 Bantam A Tournament gets seeded. Don't blame D6 refs. Look in the mirror.

[Air Force 1]

because i sure can't imagine taking all that abuse for $30-40 a game.

Your association/district pays well, ours pays $22.50 for a Pee Wee game and it goes down from there.

At a recent tournament, a visiting parent thanked my son on his way out of the official's locker room for the good game he officiated. The same dad then looked at me and said, "I'd never let my kid ref!"

My kid LOVES it! And he has had some tough treatment by some coaches too and after those games asks when his next game is.

[inthestands]

AF1, glad to hear your son enjoys officiating as much as mine does.

That job for sure takes a certain kind of outlook and ability. It's a great deal for kids in high school, college and beyond.

It would be a great thing if every hockey parent and coach would experience their child officiating a game with full bleachers.

[breakout]

At the BV peewee tournement on Sat, a game against IGH and Av the refs called 6 misconduct penalties for mouthguard infractions. Granted the refs did warn the players on both teams but the kids are in a habit of chewing on there mouthguards so they were called. But what I dont understand is how they can stop play and call it? Our they watching the play or are they staring into the the playeers max to see the infractions? I think alot of the refs are control freaks. just let the kids play!!!!

Six?????

Players and coaches should have caught on after one.
It is an important piece of protection - kids need to be educated - not penalized.

Apparently the refs warned the players. Yet the players chose to shove it back in the refs face by not complying? Face it, rules are rules. Imagine if they said, let them play in the NHL. We would go right back to goon, less skilled hockey. The same holds true for youth hockey.

[inthestands]

At the BV peewee tournement on Sat, a game against IGH and Av the refs called 6 misconduct penalties for mouthguard infractions. Granted the refs did warn the players on both teams but the kids are in a habit of chewing on there mouthguards so they were called. But what I dont understand is how they can stop play and call it? Our they watching the play or are they staring into the the playeers max to see the infractions? I think alot of the refs are control freaks. just let the kids play!!!!

Six?????

Players and coaches should have caught on after one.
It is an important piece of protection - kids need to be educated - not penalized.

Apparently the refs warned the players. Yet the players chose to shove it back in the refs face by not complying? Face it, rules are rules. Imagine if they said, let them play in the NHL. We would go right back to goon, less skilled hockey. The same holds true for youth hockey.

I think alot of the refs are control freaks. just let the kids play Although this may be the case in isolated instances, your outlook at the game is a bigger problem.

[breakout]

Six?????

Players and coaches should have caught on after one.
It is an important piece of protection - kids need to be educated - not penalized.

Apparently the refs warned the players. Yet the players chose to shove it back in the refs face by not complying? Face it, rules are rules. Imagine if they said, let them play in the NHL. We would go right back to goon, less skilled hockey. The same holds true for youth hockey.

I think alot of the refs are control freaks. just let the kids play Although this may be the case in isolated instances, your outlook at the game is a bigger problem.

Stricter enforcement of the rules takes place in NHL, USHL, USA Hockey and this year college hockey. Plain and simple, it has been determined that it is good for the game. That is not just my opinion, it's the opinion of hockey experts. Are there overzealous refs out there? ....... yes Are there bad refs out there? ...... sure

"let the kids play", always loved that term. Let me guess, your lad is a less skilled player

[Hockeyguy_27]

They're GOD AWFUL. Nice people but I can safely generalize that most of them have never played the game at a high level, interpret and enforce infractions differently (extremely differently) , hide behind the zero tolerance rule and use it as a means to avoid accountability. My team recently had the pleasure of playing in a tournament that used district 2 refs and it was nice. I'm so conditioned to seeing an arm go up any time there is contact, that I had nearly forgotten what in fact constitutes a real penalty in the rest of the hockey world. District 6 needs to get their act together with respect to quality of officiating I have consistently seen over the past 5 years.