mnhockeydadof2 wrote:[quote="hockeyhair15.. all im saying is that if its not hurting anyone why go out of your way to get someone in trouble. i kno its hard for you to believe that there are decent kids out there who wanna have a good time every once in awhile. just because you and your mathleate buddies didnt so much as walk to the bathroom without a hall pass does not give you the right to lump everyone who drinks into the "raging alcholic cancer to the team pac man jones type people". and if the sauce is so harmfull it should give your angel of a son an upper hand to make the varsity squad, all he needs to do is out work the other kids. maybe get an extra lift in while they are at the AA meetings
ok. now i understand. you have got to be a kid... or I've seen you before on one of those redneck shows. Kids who wanna have a good time every once in a while? You have to equate that to chemicals? You are right about my kid getting extra time in while the others are at AA - or while they are in jail for a minor.
I agree with the person who said that a player shoudl be able to redeem themselves - especially if they are willing to do whatever it takes to earn their uniform and the respect of the other kids. Then again, there are those who want to sweep it under the rug, pretend they did nothing etc.
people go to jail for minors? where are you from? oh and btw, way to be mature with the "redneck show" comment, sorry we cant all be stuck up CEO's of fortune 500 companies like you must be. if you honestly expect hockey players, who are in this state the most popular athletes in the school, with a few exceptions of course, to not have a social life you're nuts. as someone who's obviously never made a mistake in his life and has a son who is either perfect or neverletout of the house except for school and hockey i can see how you dont understand. whine about the way it is all you want it wont change and it wont make your son any better.
Exactly my point in why it all needs to be tightened up. In an earlier post, you said that you see nothing wrong in kids going out to a party and having some beer on a Saturday night. You call me stuck-up because I follow the law? You think my son doesn't go out? He does - but we have rules and he has integrity and self respect. Do I care if he becomes a better hockey player? Nope. I just want him to grow up to be a good citizen and have respect for himself and others. He may be a "nerd" in your book - but let's see where the chips falls later in life.
to answer a future question you're sure to ask in your future profession young man - yes, I would like fries with that. [/quote]
Hahahahahaha I wish I knew who your kid was to see if he actually does drink. My money is on yes.
hockeyhair15 wrote:i personaly have mixed views on this one. as far as tobacco goes i think if you get caught chewing/smoking by a coach or administrator you deserve the suspension, however i can tell you from experience that coaches wont go out of their way to catch people who chew, if they all did about 70% of the players in the state would have to sit for 2 weeks. as far as drinking goes i think players should only be punished if its a problem, or they are dumb enough to let pics of them drinking show upon facebook/myspace. if its not interfereing with their on-ice or classroom performance, then i say let it go. however if a player is drinking on the night before games, in school,ect then the other players should try totalk tohim about it and if that fails, go to the coach and let him decide what to do. im not promoting underage drinking but were all young and dumb at some point and make mistakes, no reason to jeapordize someone's future so just you can pat yourself on the back.
Underage drinking is illegal... The last time I checked.
mnhockeydadof2 wrote:[quote="hockeyhair15.. all im saying is that if its not hurting anyone why go out of your way to get someone in trouble. i kno its hard for you to believe that there are decent kids out there who wanna have a good time every once in awhile. just because you and your mathleate buddies didnt so much as walk to the bathroom without a hall pass does not give you the right to lump everyone who drinks into the "raging alcholic cancer to the team pac man jones type people". and if the sauce is so harmfull it should give your angel of a son an upper hand to make the varsity squad, all he needs to do is out work the other kids. maybe get an extra lift in while they are at the AA meetings
ok. now i understand. you have got to be a kid... or I've seen you before on one of those redneck shows. Kids who wanna have a good time every once in a while? You have to equate that to chemicals? You are right about my kid getting extra time in while the others are at AA - or while they are in jail for a minor.
I agree with the person who said that a player shoudl be able to redeem themselves - especially if they are willing to do whatever it takes to earn their uniform and the respect of the other kids. Then again, there are those who want to sweep it under the rug, pretend they did nothing etc.
people go to jail for minors? where are you from? oh and btw, way to be mature with the "redneck show" comment, sorry we cant all be stuck up CEO's of fortune 500 companies like you must be. if you honestly expect hockey players, who are in this state the most popular athletes in the school, with a few exceptions of course, to not have a social life you're nuts. as someone who's obviously never made a mistake in his life and has a son who is either perfect or neverletout of the house except for school and hockey i can see how you dont understand. whine about the way it is all you want it wont change and it wont make your son any better.
Exactly my point in why it all needs to be tightened up. In an earlier post, you said that you see nothing wrong in kids going out to a party and having some beer on a Saturday night. You call me stuck-up because I follow the law? You think my son doesn't go out? He does - but we have rules and he has integrity and self respect. Do I care if he becomes a better hockey player? Nope. I just want him to grow up to be a good citizen and have respect for himself and others. He may be a "nerd" in your book - but let's see where the chips falls later in life.
to answer a future question you're sure to ask in your future profession young man - yes, I would like fries with that. [/quote]
awww does this mean we're not friends anymore?
let me ask you a question. do you have a problem with kids drinking because its against the law? and if not what makes it so bad in your book?
I guess I have several reasons for having such a strong opinion on it.
Having been a kid in HS who's parents wanted to be "cool" and let me run my life however I wanted, I learned the hardway how it can damage more than just a HS sports opportunity.
The law is the law and no, I'm not a cop. But why give leeway to some criminals and not to others? Yea, they may not go to jail for a minor, but they do get a record and it gets reported to the school.
And no, my kid is obviously not as talented as the trouble maker (or two) on our team... but when they aren't there because they aren't eligible be it hockey or whatever sport - my kid is good enough. And although he has never been in trouble for anything illegal or requiring an actual detention or suspension, the reward he gets for his hard work and waiting in the wings is a trip back when the golden boy arrives. Full of tears and promises - until the next time they are caught - probably at school again.
I'm just waiting for the day when an adult at a school - the AD or a coach has the balls to say enough is enough and learn this lesson now instead of a bigger lesson when they are an adult.
what you meant to say was "i think that people who drink should be kicked off the team so my son can play". i get the feeling if you son was this "golden boy" who has been in trouble you would be saying "c'mon they're kids, they're gonna screw up, give 'em a break". i was never the golden boy either, however when i was at parties i tried to make sure no broads snapped pictures of our star players drinking/chewing/smoking that might end up on facebook, and when i did get a consumption, i told the coach and the ad noone else on the team was there even tho half the squad was there. i did these things because cared more about the sucess of the team then my own personal glory. yea riding the pine or playing jv sucks, but the coach has to do whats best for the team.
The big difference is does the coach just worry about winning or does he reallly care about the kid involved and what the drinking could lead to. Some people on this board think that these coaches jobs is just about the hockey, it is way more then that. This is what seperates the good coaches from the bad, how they handle these situations. Life is about playing by the rules just like in a game break the rules serve your penalty.
The rules from MHSL are very clear. The following is the consequences for a third violation:
3. Third and Subsequent Violations: After confirmation of the third or subsequent violations, the student shall lose eligibility for the next twelve (12) consecutive interscholastic contests in which the student is a participant or four (4) weeks, whichever is greater. If after the third or subsequent violations, the student has been assessed to be chemically dependent and the student on her/his own volition becomes a participant in a chemical dependency program or treatment program, then the student may be certified for reinstatement in MSHSL activities after a minimum period of six (6) weeks. Such certification must be issued by the director or a counselor of a chemical dependency treatment center.
The problem is that some high schools have different consequences and that coaches can cut whoever they want. My opinion is consequences are good and we should encourage players that are in trouble with drugs or alcohol to get help. If they get they help they need. they should be encouraged to return to the positive environment that sport offers. You would think we could have unified rules that the MSHL, schools, and coaches can all follow.
Mnhockeydadof2 I would tell my son to enjoy playing in a position that he would have NEVER had the opportunity to be in and then during the season and off season I would tell him to work hard and maybe he will EARN that spot next year. Your son, the coach, the parents, and the fans all know when a player is playing in a position that he doesn't belong in.
As far as the coaches...they should leave the punishment up to the parents and follow the rules.
What message would it send to the players that if you get into trouble society will NOT give you a second chance? I can't think of ONE person that I know that hasn't made a mistake at one time or other! Look at the professional athletes and they are ADULTS.
[quote="mnhockeydadof2"]What does everyone think about coaches and parents who turn the other cheek when a kid gets into trouble with chemicals. You know... kids will be kids.[/quote]
As far as each distric having their own rules. I know the schools in Rochester Public have a half season rule to where if a athlete gets caught they must sit out half the seaosn, twice a full season, and 3 times they are done for HS sports.
Anyother districs have stricter rules than the MSHSL?
I think the MSHSL rule is 2 weeks for a 1st, 6 for a second and the year of all sports for a third, with an appeal process after treatment.
Almost all athletes who get caught are caught for drinking or drug possession. No one cares about tobacco and coaches often look the other way when they are chewing/smoking. Drinking and getting caught lets down your whole team and the coach should make sure the player knows that, however, I think MSHSL punishments are enough. Also, the kids who get caught are often only 5% of the kids who actually so no one should go whine about kids getting caught and getting to come back and to work there way back into a spot because I'm sure if there kid was the unlucky one who got caught, they would feel that their kid should be able to come back after serving the punishment.
How do most D1 college coaches look at alcohol/drug violations of would be high school recruits? I would think this would cause most of them to move on, or at a minimum be extra cautious.
I've seen lots of comments here that many (or even most) high school kids partake, but only the unlucky ones get caught. But for any kid who has aspirations of playing D1, why would you want to take a chance? Likewise, if you're a college coach, why would you want to take a chance?
MNHockeyFan wrote:How do most D1 college coaches look at alcohol/drug violations of would be high school recruits? I would think this would cause most of them to move on, or at a minimum be extra cautious.
I've seen lots of comments here that many (or even most) high school kids partake, but only the unlucky ones get caught. But for any kid who has aspirations of playing D1, why would you want to take a chance? Likewise, if you're a college coach, why would you want to take a chance?
In my experience (and this is a gross generalization, and for obvious reasons I am avoiding the naming of any names) the people who are serious about trying to play D1, and those who are the most passionate about hockey (or any high school sport) will avoid alcohol/drugs, or at least during the season. The ones doing them during the season generally are making it clear that they have higher priorities than hockey.
Of course that's not going to stop everyone, but in the end the cream of the crop is not where most of the alcohol is used, and definitely not where the drugs are used.
As for what college coaches look for...smoking/chewing is probably not considered much of a problem, unpleasant as they may seem, as these things become legal when the kid goes to college and using them doesn't immediately impact performance. Alcohol would be the next level, but most people understand that it happens...the ones with multiple violations obviously become less and less desirable, as this is an indication of addiction/questionable priorities. I'd think drugs would be an immediate turnoff. At least, that's how I'd judge things if I were a college coach.
MNHockeyFan wrote:How do most D1 college coaches look at alcohol/drug violations of would be high school recruits? I would think this would cause most of them to move on, or at a minimum be extra cautious.
I've seen lots of comments here that many (or even most) high school kids partake, but only the unlucky ones get caught. But for any kid who has aspirations of playing D1, why would you want to take a chance? Likewise, if you're a college coach, why would you want to take a chance?
I don't think many college coaches care if you are good enough. High school and college kids will drink. The dumb ones will get caught and the college coaches know that.
See Don Lucia's handling of the Fox9 story that came out a few years ago to know what he really thinks. He did nothing and was most angry at Fox for going out and trying to prove something we already know... college kids drink.
scoreboard33 wrote:I don't think many college coaches care if you are good enough. High school and college kids will drink. The dumb ones will get caught and the college coaches know that.
See Don Lucia's handling of the Fox9 story that came out a few years ago to know what he really thinks. He did nothing and was most angry at Fox for going out and trying to prove something we already know... college kids drink.
Yes I realize college kids drink but I was talking about the recruitment of high school players who already drink - not the same thing.
After reading the first few posts in this thread I had to stop. I'm not sure of the age of the posters, but for someone to say that drinking in high school is okay "if it doesn't affect their performance", that it matters how many times they screwed up for if they should be punished, or the talent of the athlete should have any iota to do with anything is crazy.
Alcohol is illegal to own or consume for anyone not 21. I highly doubt there are too many good HS athletes who are 21. Tobacco, of any kind, is illegal to use until you are 18. Bottom line, whether you are a 4th liner, or the leading scorer, you chose to break the law, the punishment should be the same.
It's okay "if it doesn't affect their performance?" There have been extensive studies to show a direct correlation between drug and alcohol use and affecting an athlete's performance negatively. The only way for a drug not to affect your performance is to not use it.
Are there teams, groups of students, etc who decide to take the season off from drinking/drugs because of the added physical benefit for the TEAM? Anyone who decides to participate in those behaviors is bringing the team down. If they decided to not drink as a team any mediocre team would become that much better.
HShockeywatcher wrote:After reading the first few posts in this thread I had to stop. I'm not sure of the age of the posters, but for someone to say that drinking in high school is okay "if it doesn't affect their performance", that it matters how many times they screwed up for if they should be punished, or the talent of the athlete should have any iota to do with anything is crazy.
Alcohol is illegal to own or consume for anyone not 21. I highly doubt there are too many good HS athletes who are 21. Tobacco, of any kind, is illegal to use until you are 18. Bottom line, whether you are a 4th liner, or the leading scorer, you chose to break the law, the punishment should be the same.
It's okay "if it doesn't affect their performance?" There have been extensive studies to show a direct correlation between drug and alcohol use and affecting an athlete's performance negatively. The only way for a drug not to affect your performance is to not use it.
Are there teams, groups of students, etc who decide to take the season off from drinking/drugs because of the added physical benefit for the TEAM? Anyone who decides to participate in those behaviors is bringing the team down. If they decided to not drink as a team any mediocre team would become that much better.
u state the obvious i know u are referring to a couple of my quotes which is fine but let me be clear and restate them because you want to question my age.
If a hockey player who loves to play hockey and is good at it makes a mistake and wants a second chance after his consequence than by all means let him if the coach or ad approve if they dont approve fine there must be good reason example the kid isnt that good and or needs more help than a consequence...every hs coach has some discretion as his job is always on the line
I'm not at all saying 2nd chances aren't a good thing. The part of the human brain that thinks through consequences of one's actions isn't fully developed until around age 25; just about every high school student, athlete or not, will screw up in some way or another. 2nd chances are a must. What I am saying is that the athlete's ability shouldn't be a factor in their punishment. If anything, it should make the penalty worse to set an example.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying the 1st liner who gets caught drinking (which is holding him back from being even better, and is breaking a rule) should have a lesser punishment than the 4th liner who gets caught drinking because he is more of an asset to the team? Maybe on a professional team if everyone is okay with it while it is purely their job to win, but in high school that is different. If the punishments aren't going to be equal, I say have the 1st liner's be worse to set an example and hopefully prevent it from happening in the future. If the consequences are clear to the students, then the 1st liner made a much bigger mistake as they are affecting their whole team, not just them, while the 4th liner is only negatively affecting them and probably helping someone else, in giving someone else a chance to play up.
scoreboard33 wrote:I don't think many college coaches care if you are good enough. High school and college kids will drink. The dumb ones will get caught and the college coaches know that.
See Don Lucia's handling of the Fox9 story that came out a few years ago to know what he really thinks. He did nothing and was most angry at Fox for going out and trying to prove something we already know... college kids drink.
Yes I realize college kids drink but I was talking about the recruitment of high school players who already drink - not the same thing.
How often do people who drink in college wait till they get there to have their first drink?
IMO, the rule should be followed regardless of what line the offender plays on. That is why there are rules and it should be enforced across the board. This eliminates a coach or AD showing favoritism to one player over another. Because people can make mistakes the rules does have a three tier process to give those offenders a second and even a third chance. If any player hits the third chance rule, they have a problem. Gez, when I read the term "broads", I won't even post what I thought! Lastly, someone mentioned the Rochester School district's policy being harsher than the MSHL policy: You are correct.
scoreboard33 wrote:I don't think many college coaches care if you are good enough. High school and college kids will drink. The dumb ones will get caught and the college coaches know that.
See Don Lucia's handling of the Fox9 story that came out a few years ago to know what he really thinks. He did nothing and was most angry at Fox for going out and trying to prove something we already know... college kids drink.
Yes I realize college kids drink but I was talking about the recruitment of high school players who already drink - not the same thing.
Speaking for most, I think they understand that the majority of high school athletes drink and don't really care unless the kid seems to have a substance abuse problem. Official visits often end up all about drinking and parties for the visiting prospect, so the college coaches really turn the other cheek.
Being an educator who has also coached at both the high school and college levels and also worked for the state high school league, I'd like to add my two cents to this rather interesting discussion.
1. As far as the MSHSL rules go, I feel they are fair and appropriate. A player who is caught using alcohol, tobacco or any other drug is subject to a first time penalty of two weeks or two games, whichever is longer. The penalty increases with any subsequent offenses. Coaches, of course, are free to lengthen the suspensions, but they may not shorten it
2. As to the argument that speeding or stealign are also illegal, that is true, but it is also irrelevant. All high school athletes are required to sign an agreement to follow the MSHSL rules. Therefore, they know what the rules are (or, at least, they should) If a player knows the rules and is unable or unwilling to follow them, then I, as a coach, would have to question how badly I want that player on my team. Yes, players make mistakes. That is why the first offense is only two weeks or two games. When I coached, I had a "no third chance" policy. Any player who was caught a second time during a season was finished playhing for that season.
3. As far as college coaches recruiting players with drinking/durg suspensions, I would take a serious look at a potential recruit who had been suspended for using alcohohl or drugs, especially if he/she had mujoltiple offenses. Again, the main reason for me would be the players apparent inability to follow rules and policies.
I don't expect everyone to agree with my take on this question, I merely wanted to provide the board with another point of view.
but one question remains.... how fair do you think it is that the athlete that gets caught gets his same spot back? The kid who fills in because he or she was an idiot gets dumped.
I do believe in 2nd chances - and kids will make mistakes... but part of that I think should be the bump down to JV, loosing their captain status etc.
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