Is the time coming where kids don't play winter hockey?

[noonespecial]

Well if peoples associations are a mess and you do nothing but complain about it, nothing is going to get changed. step up to the plate and get more involved. Most kids love playing with their buddies in the winter, because when it is time for summer activities, some play just baseball, lacrosse or hockey, and even if they play summer hockey, they could end up on different teams

[yeahyeahyeah]

Bravo Doglover! Guys I am not far away from the Mite level adn I can tell you that I have already witnesses 9, 10, 11 year olds that have been playig a lot of hockey, MELT DOWN. Enjoy the early years, I am not a sage old vet. Rather I am very close to the age your kids are at and I have come to realize that burn out reveals itself in many forms. My biggest concern is when I see kdis losing the passion for the game.
When hockey becomes something that is a burden on their young psyche's.
Just be careful, watch for signs, don't let it get to that point.

Oh and by the way HD41, there are no rules against painting a players helmet. I think you will start a cottage industry for air brush artists in the Soutwest metro. I suggest you take your sons helmet and get er customized. I am pretty certain that the player that don's the first custom job will get the most attention from D1 scouts. After all that is what we are here for right?&*?*^%?

[Hoops]

I have heard all the stats about making varsity, D1, pro's etc.. and I know that my kid will more than likely hang up the skates after he finishes high school, but so what? Right now if he has the desire, I want to give him the opportunity to play on the best team he can.

Odds are your kid will more than likely hang it up long before he finishes high school, that's nothing against you or your kid just the facts. Most kids quit and talent or lack there of isn't the leading cause.

WHAT?? Most kids play to the level they tap out at...name some kids please that were good enough to play varsity hockey and just hung it up. Talent is absolutely the reason people stop playing..and that's true in most sports.

[muckandgrind]

Hockeydad I know you may find this hard to believe but I think the majority of us do think you are "overzealous". Kids love playing hockey with their buddies especially when they are ONLY 5 years old and in Mites. They don't want to drive all over town to play with kids they don't know so their parents can feel like they are on the best team (read "bragging rights"). There has been a lot of wisdom shared in this thread, but as I'm learning with the new breed of young hockey dads, it falls on deaf ears. You really should consider listening to the wealth of experience on this board. We've been down the path - you haven't.

Association hockey is great - if yours is "messed up" (hard to believe at the Mite level), then get involved and make it better or quit complaining. At the rate you're going, my bet is your kid may not make it to HS without hanging up the skates. Let them have fun, learn to love the game playing with their buddies. It gets crazy soon enough. You're going to burn yourself and your sons out before your little 5 yr old hits second year Squirts.

You assume that parents and players that have issues with their local associations haven't tried to make it a better experience. Our association is BEYOND screwed up. I have put forth MUCH effort to turn things around for the better (been a board member, coach, etc.) and still the wheels keep spinning without gaining any traction,

My older son (14 years old) looks forward to summer hockey more than he does to winter hockey. He likes his buddies that he plays association hockey with, but he has much more fun playing on the more skilled summer teams...that's his competitive nature.

There absolutely nothing wrong with playing hockey year round if that's what the kid wants to do. Basketball and soccer are both played year round, why should it be different for hockey? I hear people say that kids should quit playing hockey in the summer for fear of "burn-out"....do these people also think that basketball players shouldn't be shooting hoops in the summer? Of course not.

I've been involved in summer AAA hockey for going on 10 years now, and contrary to the stereotypes, I have met very few people who think there kid is the next Gretzky or Crosby. Most parents just want a good experience for their kids.

[Puck Whisperer]

Hockeydad I know you may find this hard to believe but I think the majority of us do think you are "overzealous". Kids love playing hockey with their buddies especially when they are ONLY 5 years old and in Mites. They don't want to drive all over town to play with kids they don't know so their parents can feel like they are on the best team (read "bragging rights"). There has been a lot of wisdom shared in this thread, but as I'm learning with the new breed of young hockey dads, it falls on deaf ears. You really should consider listening to the wealth of experience on this board. We've been down the path - you haven't.

Association hockey is great - if yours is "messed up" (hard to believe at the Mite level), then get involved and make it better or quit complaining. At the rate you're going, my bet is your kid may not make it to HS without hanging up the skates. Let them have fun, learn to love the game playing with their buddies. It gets crazy soon enough. You're going to burn yourself and your sons out before your little 5 yr old hits second year Squirts.

You assume that parents and players that have issues with their local associations haven't tried to make it a better experience. Our association is BEYOND screwed up. I have put forth MUCH effort to turn things around for the better (been a board member, coach, etc.) and still the wheels keep spinning without gaining any traction,

My older son (14 years old) looks forward to summer hockey more than he does to winter hockey. He likes his buddies that he plays association hockey with, but he has much more fun playing on the more skilled summer teams...that's his competitive nature.

There absolutely nothing wrong with playing hockey year round if that's what the kid wants to do. Basketball and soccer are both played year round, why should it be different for hockey? I hear people say that kids should quit playing hockey in the summer for fear of "burn-out"....do these people also think that basketball players shouldn't be shooting hoops in the summer? Of course not.

I've been involved in summer AAA hockey for going on 10 years now, and contrary to the stereotypes, I have met very few people who think there kid is the next Gretzky or Crosby. Most parents just want a good experience for their kids.

Like I said before it is a choice and I have no business commenting on someone's personal decision. I think where this became a debate like many other threads is we are talking about an 8 yr old Mite not a 14 yr old. He stated he is working to get the association heading in the right direction which is good.

I just think it is a real head scratcher, what is that association doing at the MITE level that you would consider pulling them out? The coaches would have to be sitting in the box drinking beers and screaming at the kids? All things I had considered when I coached the little ones

I say play spring/fall AAA and association in the winter - it is a great balance! Again, if you want to go year round - have at it!

[greybeard58]

There was an interesting segment on the HBO Real Sports with Bryant Gumble dealing with parents and youth sports. The part was about youth wrestling in Michigan. It included interviews with Doctors who are now seeing injuries caused by over training at ages where they never saw before. The youngest was a 4 year old with knee injuries caused by figure skating. I mention this segment as you can substitute any sport and see the parents there.
For the parent of a young player enjoy your time with your children, let them explore what interests them. Encourage and support them but be careful how intense you are. If you chose to get involved at the association level,remember that you should get involved not only for the betterment of your child but for the betterment of all.
I now have grand children and when I was growing up and even when my children were growing up it was expected if you had problems with how things were being run,you got involved and worked to solve the problems.

[InigoMontoya]

An 8 year old doesn't drink from a sippy cup. He can read; he can tie his own shoes; he is capable of lifting the toilet seat (though he must think it's more fun NOT to); and he is capable of completing some of the simple large muscle tasks necessary to start playing hockey - instead of being praised for making snow angels and getting a free belly ride from end to end while holding onto the coach's stick.

So go ahead now and copy and paste the last post you sent about how my kid won't make it to D1 and I am working out my D1 issues on him. Personally, I think it is darn near child abuse to get out the guitar and sing Kum-by-yah for 4 years of mites, then send him out there with absolutely no way to compete as a 9 year old, but keep score so that he is fully aware of what he can't do on the ice. I know this isn't anyone on this board, but I am sick and tired of the juice box / goldfish set that blame the squirt coach for the beatings the kids take week in and week out, after they made a concious decision not to develop the kids as mites; then conspire at parties, school functions, and even at church, badmouthing parents who couldn't take it anymore and found something else for their kid - even going as far as making by-law changes keeping those kids from competing with their undeveloped kids for spots on the travel team the next year. So go ahead and brow beat me now for only complaining and never attempting to work with the association - there is nothing that can be said on this board that is as bad as winter hockey in that environment.

Sorry about that. I appreciate your patience. That was very cathartic. Now I won't say those same things to our board president when I pass him in the frozen food aisle at the grocery store.

[Doglover]

M&G I actually do agree with you and some associations are beyond repair altho puck whisper does bring up a good point about how screwed up can Mite hockey actually be? I have always agreed there is a real purpose and need for the Fire Club for the good players to have a place to play in the winter if their association is bad, the coach at their level is psychotic or their assoc. just can't field an A team and they are good players.

Guess I would just love for the kids to be able to play association in the winter and AAA in the spring/summer - seems like we have the best of both systems available for our kids here in MN.

My kids also loved summer hockey and the more competitive level it offered in the summers as well. Just can't say I'd love the travel it would require on icey MN roads during the winter if we went AAA year-round. I think we all agree more than we disagree. Just want to make sure we steer the young parents in the right directions because there are many money makers out there who just want to take their $$$ by offering the next greatest thing for their young players.

[HockeyDad41]

del

[Puck Whisperer]

An 8 year old doesn't drink from a sippy cup. He can read; he can tie his own shoes; he is capable of lifting the toilet seat (though he must think it's more fun NOT to); and he is capable of completing some of the simple large muscle tasks necessary to start playing hockey - instead of being praised for making snow angels and getting a free belly ride from end to end while holding onto the coach's stick.

So go ahead now and copy and paste the last post you sent about how my kid won't make it to D1 and I am working out my D1 issues on him. Personally, I think it is darn near child abuse to get out the guitar and sing Kum-by-yah for 4 years of mites, then send him out there with absolutely no way to compete as a 9 year old, but keep score so that he is fully aware of what he can't do on the ice. I know this isn't anyone on this board, but I am sick and tired of the juice box / goldfish set that blame the squirt coach for the beatings the kids take week in and week out, after they made a concious decision not to develop the kids as mites; then conspire at parties, school functions, and even at church, badmouthing parents who couldn't take it anymore and found something else for their kid - even going as far as making by-law changes keeping those kids from competing with their undeveloped kids for spots on the travel team the next year. So go ahead and brow beat me now for only complaining and never attempting to work with the association - there is nothing that can be said on this board that is as bad as winter hockey in that environment.

Sorry about that. I appreciate your patience. That was very cathartic. Now I won't say those same things to our board president when I pass him in the frozen food aisle at the grocery store.

We had this very same problem in our Association. It was happy - sparkle - princess - pony hockey for all 4 years of mites. I was basically told to not to coach the game just skate. Wow. Can't I do both? I/We pleaded, got on the board, coached so we could change this philosophy.

Now the first two years of mites are still a juice box / goldfish environment which is great, I have no problem with that. The 3rd & 4th year we really start to push harder with their developement, teaching the game etc...(still 90% skating dev) and you know what, it has had a tremendous effect on our kids entering their first year squirts.

They were more prepared but just as important to mention....they can handle it and have fun! No more happy sparkle princess pony hockey for all 4 years - just the first 2 years!

[noonespecial]

if parents are not happy with their association, send them to mm and see what their kids think of that, not putting mm down, let the kids decide what they want to do, just because you did not make it as a player, don't live the dream threw your kids

[InigoMontoya]

I think the root of much of the parent frustration with the MN model is the monopolistic nature of the system. Other than MM and the Fire (both outside the model, but geographically local to the metro), there is really no option but the association (short of uprooting your family). If the association is strong, it can be a pleasant experience to be forced into it; if not, it can be maddening.

Parents have an illusion of control in most other areas of their kids' lives when they're young. If baseball is weak, there are dozens of baseball organizations; if the piano teacher isn't meshing with the kid, there are 10 more eager to have him; if the dance school isn't what you were looking for, even small to mid-sized towns could have a couple choices; if the school board is a bunch of nit wits and the teachers are incompetent, you can take him to a different school.

[jancze5]

WOW, this post went array from the start.

Everyone has differing views on the topic, but the reality is this: DO YOU WANT TO PAY $6700 for AAA in season hockey? Go to the Chicago team websites, the Mission, the Fury, TI, etc.. and check the fees for 2009-2010, would you pay $6700 fee, plus $300 jersey/uniform package, plus a mandatory fundraiser sales, plus travel?

The only alternative would be to offer a type of hockey that is NOT AAA, but rather district focused, it would have to be at the PW Major and Bantam Major or 2nd years only. The districts would have to purchase rotating ice within the district.

My theory would have a district select team at the PW and Bantam levels, but then straight up A-B-C hockey thereafter. That would take care of that one superstar from Monticello and Waconia while offering a higher level of play throughout the season. Keeping it in state and still within the Minnesota hockey sytstem per say will keep costs realistic.

[InigoMontoya]

The reality is that some people do want to do that.

Why is that the only alternative? Why couldn't there be 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 clubs that played Tier 1 AAA, with association hockey for the rest. If there are only 40 parents willing to pay the money, then I guess you'd only have 2.

District Selects cause a ton of problems. As was well debated during the winter season, not all districts are created equal - 20 kids from District 4 v. 20 kids from District 6. Who picks them, who coaches them, etc.

[goldy313]

I have heard all the stats about making varsity, D1, pro's etc.. and I know that my kid will more than likely hang up the skates after he finishes high school, but so what? Right now if he has the desire, I want to give him the opportunity to play on the best team he can.

Odds are your kid will more than likely hang it up long before he finishes high school, that's nothing against you or your kid just the facts. Most kids quit and talent or lack there of isn't the leading cause.

WHAT?? Most kids play to the level they tap out at...name some kids please that were good enough to play varsity hockey and just hung it up. Talent is absolutely the reason people stop playing..and that's true in most sports.

Wow, I can't really decide if you're a bit or just ignorant. Since the original subject was mite players I'll just start from there; obviously your smart enough to pick the 6-10 kids out of 100 6 olds that will eventually skate varisty hockey. Geez can you give us the Powerball numbers for Wednesday since you're such a clairvoyant?

Seriously, talent or lack there of is one of the last reasons kids quit, economics, social factors, and if the game is fun are far more important that talent. Why is the attrition rate so high if talent were the reason? Hockey gives kids all kinds of levels to play from the elite player to the recreational level. From bringing up 4 boys who played to coaching I've seen really talented kids quit because of many reasons other than talent. Of my 4 boys the least talented played through his senior year, the most talented walked away after his junior year, he would have rather been ice fishing than at practice - he played second line on a state tournament team so he was pretty good. The absolute best kid I ever coached had problems in school and at home, a sad state really he could have been a star but that's life. The second best kid I ever coached quit to play basketball and was a standout at Mayo at QB and at point guard. Many other kids had the talent to play varsity hockey but not the heart or desire or work ethic. Far too many more in my last years quit because they could not afford it or were told that the only way was to skate year around and decided against that committment.

You want kids who quit prior to their talent level? Let's start with some familiar names; Jim Johanson current president of USA Hockey, he went into the private sector instead of signing a minor league contract. Paul Butters, ex Gopher goalie who thought his education was more important. I work with a guy who was drafted in the 4th round by the Penguins but chose medical school instead, he played for the Czech National teams throughout his youth and even on their Olympic team in "92. Jamie Hoffman, signed with Colorado College out of high school but chose the Dodgers instead, Marion Barber III, chose to walk on at Minnesota and play football. Most high school kids I can name you wouldn't be familiar with anyhow but some may remember Dan Monet, as a freshman played goalie in a section championship game for John Marshall against Burnsville and never played hockey again. This was a kid who was considered a top goalie in his age group and left bantams becaue the challenge wasn't there, played varsity 1 year and never came back.

I looked up my youngest sons hockey program, of the 34 kids who played squirt A hockey with him (2 A teams) 12 played varsity hockey their senior years. That's with 4 high schools, that's a pretty high attrition rate and talent wasn't the main reason. My kid wasn't one of the 12, he quit to wrestle. The simple truth is most kids quit because it isn't fun anymore, the second most is that they've found something else to do and that's true for all sports. To say what you said shows you haven't spent much time around kids and sports because anyone who has ever played sports can go on and on about this kid or that kid that was really talented and just walked away.

[HockeyDad41]

del

[goldy313]

Exactly, you never know what tommorrow will bring. Kids change their minds so often and it's never bad to encourage them at a young age. Be it they want to play in the NHL, be an astronaut, or a teacher, or a doctor, or whatever they choose. You never want to tell a kid he can't be this. The problems come in when parents expect things out of their kids or set goals for their kids that the kids don't want to reach. I used to listen to the parents of squirts and peewees tell me how great their kid was or was becoming then inside the locker room the kid couldn't wait for the season to end because he was tired of hockey, what the kids say in front of their parents is often times very different from what they say away from them. The one thing I miss about coaching is the wide eyed mites, I don't miss the angry dad spending 10 minutes chewing me out at 7:30 am because we spent 5 minutes playing duck-duck-gray duck instead of doing skating drills for 5 minutes of the hour not realizing these kids aren't even old enough for first grade and honestly wondering if they put as much effort into every minute of school time these kids will have as they do into what we do at hockey practice.
(Not saying your one of those hockeydad41)

[HockeyDad41]

del

[royals dad]

With the mix of winter association hockey and the off season options it would be a shame if we were to break our system by having in season invite/open/AAA teams. For the most part associations are run by parent volunteers who do their best for the kids. Association mites can be frustrating with the age/skill range and ongoing debates on small rink vs full sheet but I still hope most parents have their kids with the local teams in winter.

"we won't be talking to him about how the odds are against him"

I don't think anyone was suggesting that you would relay this to your son. It is important that parents hear some of what was on this thread though. There are some plain simple truths:

According to USA Hockey age 13 is the real tipping point, we loose over half of the participants around that age, as previously stated the overwhelming number 1 reason is that it isn't fun any more.

Hockey is not an investment. What you pay in time and money you will not get back. What you gain in spending additional hours at the rink does come with a price; other sports, family time, your own personal time (when did being a good dad come to mean we gave everything else up), work time, school work time, vacations,... Don Lucia said at an EP Hockey banquet a few years back "invest in a college savings plan, play hockey for fun".

AAA hockey is a business, business is good, and for the most part they are good at it. They can take a kid who has a limited amount of natural ability and make them a very competitive player but it is a business. They will sell you that service whether or not it is the best thing for your child or your family. Part of their business is to sell their service to you, not that there is anything wrong with that but you need to be a smart consumer as it involves what kind of childhood your kid will have.

There are great things as well: Hockey is great exercise, lately we have had some really good outdoor ice winters, we have some good metro outdoor artificial chilled sheets (free), Minnesota leads the country in creating lifelong players, we have a great deal of hockey options in Minnesota (especially here in the metro), you can have some great (non hockey) conversations with your kid on the ride to or from hockey, it is still the most fun sport on the planet, ...

What my family has decided to do will hopefully be the right thing for us, hopefully you can read all the posts and get some info to help make good decisions for you. I have one playing HS and two mites.

[InigoMontoya]

According to USA Hockey, what are the reasons the 13 year old gives as to why it's not fun?

[HockeyDad41]

del

[Doglover]

royals dad - you nailed it!! Great post.

[JSR]

According to USA Hockey, what are the reasons the 13 year old gives as to why it's not fun?

Forgive as I don't remember which issue or whatever but about a year ago I remember reading an article (I think it was USA Hockey magazine) and they were talking about reasons kids quit playing orgainized hockey and they talked about the biggest attrition rate being in the 12-13 age categories. One of (not the only but one of) the big reasons they discussed was that this was the age checking/hitting is introduced into the game and there are apparently ALOT of kids who do not liek this aspect of the gaem once it's introduced. They love mite and squirt hockey and they love watching college and NHL hockey on TV and I suspect they know on some level they will be involved in checking at some point but I don't think they fully comprehend or know what it is and then all of a sudden they are a Pee Wee and some big kid puts a big check on them and that is it, the game they thought they loved suddenly became something completely different and they don't like it anymore so they find something else they do like. I remember the article mentioned other reasons (I don;t remember any percentages or anything) but this particular reason really stuck with me as far as rememebring it, as I thought it was interesting and made some reasonable sense as far as the timing and the big change etc.....

[Night Train]

Not that there's time anymore but I wish all young hockey players played football in the fall. Getting used to running full speed, and attempting to blow someone up, helps getting used to checking. Also, practices introduce players to getting hit as well. A solid linebacker, or running back, will have no problem with the hitting part of hockey. They'll love it. No wincing or stopping the feet moving. Just rocking with a smile.

[InigoMontoya]

According to USA Hockey age 13 is the real tipping point, we loose over half of the participants around that age, as previously stated the overwhelming number 1 reason is that it isn't fun any more.

One of (not the only but one of) the big reasons they discussed was that this was the age checking/hitting is introduced into the game and there are apparently ALOT of kids who do not liek this aspect of the gaem once it's introduced.

Thanks, JSR.

I can see where that wouldn't be fun anymore, but I would hardly categorize that as 'burnout'.

Hopefully more information will be put forward regarding this oft quoted reason for the downfall of youth hockey (in fact, our youth in general). I found a dozen articles that included interviews with local families and statements such as 'studies show' - most were connected in some capacity to a guy selling a book. I did not, however, find ANYTHING that referenced a specific study. Perhaps this would be better in a new thread.