AAA Rosters

[old goalie85]

development is the key for us. Don't want to get crushed every game, but not looking to go undefeated.

[High Off The Glass]

There are too many AAA teams? Why? Because you think the tourneys can't attrack out of state teams? Our tourneys will always attrack out of state teams. Is it because you are concerned that without the top out of state teams coming in the Blades and Machine won't have anyone to play here?? Again, who cares. If they don't have teams to play, let them travel. They do well where ever they go.

I agree that there are very good players spread out over many teams.

The Machine and Blades team fade as they get older because, while they have good players on their teams, they teach a system at a young age that gives them a big edge when playing.

As the kids get older, this advantage disapates. There are many kids even on open teams that could be on the Blades and/or Machine if they wanted, but choose a different option because they want to play other sports during the summer. To say there are too many AAA teams in Minnesota is silly.

I've watched Machine practices (when the curtains weren't up) and son's team played against Machine teams for several years and the reason they dominate at the younger age levels is NOT systems. BM does not teach systems, unless you call a good neutral zone regroup a system. This is one reason, in my opinion, the Machine teams fade, and kids look for better options as they grow older, is because of the lack of system development at the Made. Watch the 99 Machine play, (coached by BM) they have no organized forecheck. They don't work on entering the offense zone properly, they rely on superior individual talent in order to create scoring chances. They are disorganized on the power play and PK. The only systems they work on are face-off plays. MM takes the best kids in the metro area, with initial superior skill development, and of course win. Take these same kids, ie 96 Machine, and fast forward several years and what happens, they are now mediocre, and struggling to get into Championship games in the North America's best AAA tournaments. What MM is turning into is a squirt/PeeWee player development camp, and when kids grow older, they move on to other teams who can teach the game and take these players to the next level. Compare the Select 15 camps for the last several years, how many are Machine players or Blade players. Vast majority are coming from the Blades or other AAA teams that are teaching the game, along with skills. It comes down to coaching and experience. You invest this kind of money on summer hockey, one would expect top quality coaching, teaching the game along with skills. You just don't get that at the Made. At the Made, you get a lot of ice time, but not quality with quality coaching. I've seen on many occasions, Machine teams get out coached and beat by less talented hockey teams at all levels. Take a look at the head coaches at every level for the Machine teams and they tend to be BM or one of the players dad's whom never played past High School, and compare with other upcoming AAA programs coaches. Point is, Machine teams fade because they don't play the "game" of hockey at higher levels, and that's because of poor coaching. Someone here on the blog said a monkey can coach a young Machine team and win, true, but not at the older levels, and you can see that with Machine teams.

[play4fun]

GOYBS, you are correct. It is capitalism in action. Folks are currently a little worked up because of the recent explosion in participation, which has caused a 'building boom' of AAA programs. We can all relax a little, it will eventually reach an equilibrium (not this year, probably not next year) and the better programs will rise to the top, the programs that offer little perceived value will settle to the bottom. Don't place restrictions on it, don't draw imaginary borders on a map, and don't slap labels on the teams or programs yet, let's see where they fall.

DED, you are correct. The Blades don't fade, they get even stronger, most Minnesotans just don't hear about the older groups because they don't play locally (no local competition). The Machine doesn't fade, it completely implodes when those kids get to bantam age.

As I become older and way wiser... (Maybe more jaded) The one thing that I do see that has come out of this boom in AA teams is the ability to have independent teams find tourneys to play in. The showcase people used to have a hammer over your head saying that if you don't play with us you will not have any tourneys or games to play and it was true. Now if you have the support of a bunch of families you can start your own little group and develop the way you see fit. (South Metro Grizzleys good example) Bunch of good guys trying to keep development cheap and are making the most of the openings for tourney play. They don't tout themselves as the next great super team and try to find similar competition to play a few games to keep the kids interested. Parents realize that they are getting good coaching and kids are developing and having fun. win win for everyone. Tough to do unless you stay on top of the development. and it is a lot of work.

And so the talk also increases about independent teams during the winter months as well...

[oholene]

There are too many AAA teams? Why? Because you think the tourneys can't attrack out of state teams? Our tourneys will always attrack out of state teams. Is it because you are concerned that without the top out of state teams coming in the Blades and Machine won't have anyone to play here?? Again, who cares. If they don't have teams to play, let them travel. They do well where ever they go.

I agree that there are very good players spread out over many teams. As the kids get older, this advantage disapates. There are many kids even on open teams that could be on the Blades and/or Machine if they wanted, but choose a different option because they want to play other sports during the summer. To say there are too many AAA teams in Minnesota is silly.

I've watched Machine practices (when the curtains weren't up) and son's team played against Machine teams for several years and the reason they dominate at the younger age levels is NOT systems. BM does not teach systems, unless you call a good neutral zone regroup a system. This is one reason, in my opinion, the Machine teams fade, and kids look for better options as they grow older, is because of the lack of system development at the Made. Watch the 99 Machine play, (coached by BM) they have no organized forecheck. They don't work on entering the offense zone properly, they rely on superior individual talent in order to create scoring chances. They are disorganized on the power play and PK. The only systems they work on are face-off plays. MM takes the best kids in the metro area, with initial superior skill development, and of course win. Take these same kids, ie 96 Machine, and fast forward several years and what happens, they are now mediocre, and struggling to get into Championship games in the North America's best AAA tournaments. What MM is turning into is a squirt/PeeWee player development camp, and when kids grow older, they move on to other teams who can teach the game and take these players to the next level. Compare the Select 15 camps for the last several years, how many are Machine players or Blade players. Vast majority are coming from the Blades or other AAA teams that are teaching the game, along with skills. It comes down to coaching and experience. You invest this kind of money on summer hockey, one would expect top quality coaching, teaching the game along with skills. You just don't get that at the Made. At the Made, you get a lot of ice time, but not quality with quality coaching. I've seen on many occasions, Machine teams get out coached and beat by less talented hockey teams at all levels. Take a look at the head coaches at every level for the Machine teams and they tend to be BM or one of the players dad's whom never played past High School, and compare with other upcoming AAA programs coaches. Point is, Machine teams fade because they don't play the "game" of hockey at higher levels, and that's because of poor coaching. Someone here on the blog said a monkey can coach a young Machine team and win, true, but not at the older levels, and you can see that with Machine teams.

This is EXACTLY right on!! I've tried for years to sum up what I've witnessed at Machine games/practices versus the quality I've seen with the Blades but have never been able to summarize it like this. The big bottom line difference folks is one is for profit and one is not!

Very interesting post, did the Machine have teams at the 94, 93, 92... birth years?

[buttend]

Compare the Select 15 camps for the last several years, how many are Machine players or Blade players. Vast majority are coming from the Blades or other AAA teams that are teaching the game, along with skills. .

Greatone99,

Good insight, I agree with the majority of your post. I will add a few comments.

Summer hockey to me is really about skill development. MM does a good job with skating, edges stick handling and passing. Games should be reward and fun for the hard work that is put in to practice time. I do not believe teaching a hockey system outside of the basics is where its at for 9-13 years old players in the summer. I am very familiar with AAA programs through out the metro area. The majority of them are a skills based programs like MM. At Bantam and High School levels the players will learn nothing but their coaches systems. To play, they better have the skills!

With respect to Select 15's. MM ( Bernie ) had a "88" team and then started up his 96,97,98,99,00 etc..... This year Select 15's are 95's. Looking at past Select 15 rosters you will never see a "Machine" player because there were not any Machine teams earlier than 96. Are Advanced /Select rosters available for past years? How many "88's" made those teams? It will be interesting to see those rosters in the next few years.

I think the level of skill and hockey ability has risen in Minnesota. The number of summer programs and parents appetite is driving this. In the end, we will probably see what we have always seen. The best players at 15's, 16's 17's are big , strong, multi sport athlete with the right DNA.

[dogeatdog1]

And so the talk also increases about independent teams during the winter months as well...[/quote]


Don't know what your getting at.

[GreatOne99]

Compare the Select 15 camps for the last several years, how many are Machine players or Blade players. Vast majority are coming from the Blades or other AAA teams that are teaching the game, along with skills. .

Greatone99,

Good insight, I agree with the majority of your post. I will add a few comments.

Summer hockey to me is really about skill development. MM does a good job with skating, edges stick handling and passing. Games should be reward and fun for the hard work that is put in to practice time. I do not believe teaching a hockey system outside of the basics is where its at for 9-13 years old players in the summer. I am very familiar with AAA programs through out the metro area. The majority of them are a skills based programs like MM. At Bantam and High School levels the players will learn nothing but their coaches systems. To play, they better have the skills!

With respect to Select 15's. MM ( Bernie ) had a "88" team and then started up his 96,97,98,99,00 etc..... This year Select 15's are 95's. Looking at past Select 15 rosters you will never see a "Machine" player because there were not any Machine teams earlier than 96. Are Advanced /Select rosters available for past years? How many "88's" made those teams? It will be interesting to see those rosters in the next few years.

I think the level of skill and hockey ability has risen in Minnesota. The number of summer programs and parents appetite is driving this. In the end, we will probably see what we have always seen. The best players at 15's, 16's 17's are big , strong, multi sport athlete with the right DNA.

Bernie did have a 95 Machine team that was formed after the 96 Machine's teams early success. It was a strong team head coached by Dave Snuggerud (probably the best coach ever at MM). BM and Snuggy butted heads for several years and then they, and the whole 95 Machine team, parted ways two years ago (believe they are called the Breakaway now). By the way, those "88's" were formed and developed by the Blades (don't believe everything you hear).

[ilike2score]

Back to my original post that started this thread...Who picked up on my sarcasm and poor attempt at humor?....
So it looks like we have about forty teams at each birth year level for Spring hockey. Winter hockey has a two year window for each level. So my next question is what percentage of kids play hockey only in winter?

[sinbin]

Good question, like. It would vary by level, of course. From personal experience, my son's teams have ranged from B2 to A and, even at the B2 level, almost all of his teammates play non-winter hockey of some sort. It's got to be 100% at A, probably 90% at B1, 75% at B2, then a big dropoff to C. Total shot in the dark guesses, but it seems pervasive.

Note that my percentages are those who do NOT only play winter hockey, so subtract from 100% to get the answers to your question.

[JoltDelivered]

The best players at 15's, 16's 17's are big , strong, multi sport athlete with the right DNA.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[InigoMontoya]

Not really the most profound statement. I would imagine the best football players at those ages are the biggest, fastest, strongest, best athletes, as well. And baseball, and basketball, and track, and...

[silentbutdeadly3139]

Not really the most profound statement. I would imagine the best football players at those ages are the biggest, fastest, strongest, best athletes, as well. And baseball, and basketball, and track, and...

No but many still have to defend why the same players are always making the highest travel teams. Some people assume its "politics" not realizing they are the best athletes and it translates well to other sports.

[InigoMontoya]

I don't disagree with you, however that does not wipe the slate clean of association/district/state politics. If there was never a kid that made a team they weren't qualified for simply because his mom was on the board, there simply wouldn't be moms on the board just to get their kids on those teams - the pidgeon will stop pecking the bar when the pellet of food stops dropping into her bowl.

[old goalie85]

I grew up playing in the same assc. as my kids play in now. My wife was complaining about about politics in the program, When my 72 year old mom looked at her and said "of course it's hockey". I thought to myself that's to bad. But mom is usually right!!

[MoreCowBell]

I wonder how a kid that didn't play winter hockey but only played summer AAA hockey in the summer would do, of course he would be rink ratting all winter long, hmmmmmm....

[DMom]

I am going to have to resign from the bored, mainly because I'm turning into the biggest hypocrit I have ever met. I have defended association hockey till I'm blue in the face, been against allowing kids to play where they go to school, been for public schools, and a staunch democrat. TomAss has always told me that when I grew up I would rethink a lot of these things. If so, than I am totally and officially old. I have my hockey waiver forms printed out, pulling one kid out of public school today, maybe two, and have serious doubts about health care reform.

OG85, to me that statement is sad. These are kids. I can blame some of my naivete on the fact that we had one really bad experience at summer hockey, not really AAA. We may yet have another one-after all we have a young skater, but it will never compare to the crap that association hockey can be.

Too bad the housing market is depressed, love our home and really don't want to move anyway, but would in a heartbeat. Luckily other people have had similar experiences and have changed the rules to allow kids to still be kids. Thanks to all of the good people who have worked for the kids and to heck with the rest of you. goodbye. I'll be at ProfanityandNameCalling.com where they'll tell me they "told me so" every day, but at least I'll be laughing.

[sinbin]

Don't forget about the Matthew Effect; it starts early and effectively eliminates a lot of kids who "coulda been contendahs".

[northwoods oldtimer]

and a staunch democrat

Hey DMOM you need to seriously rethink this one

[justme]

Machine
Blades
Lake Superior Stars
Icemen
Stealth
Synergy
RBK
Edge
Magicians
Mavericks
Northern Wings
Flames
Storm
Jr Force
Jr Bulldogs
Great Lake Gulls
Fighting Loons
Jr Beavers
Jr Islanders
Mud Sharks
Jr North Stars
Jr Owls
ITR 26ers
Crush

Just off the top of my head. Please continue the list with what you have.

What ever happened to the Chiefs and the Predators teams. Not that it matters but those teams used to be pretty good teams.

[Night Train]

The Predators was an independent organization run by Bob Capra. They are no more. Bob has a 93 son and I believe it started there and then added 94, 95 and 96 teams. The Predators evolved into the Easton Synergy and Stealth teams. Bob also owns the Independent Classic AAA Tourney in May.

http://www.eastonaaa.com/

I don't know that the Chiefs ever had more than one team at one level but they were older, maybe 91s? 92s?

[bosshard]

jr mavericks too