Opting up?

[DubCHAGuy]

That might be true, however I don't think it is what anybody wants to see. Small schools playing the big schools is a big part of what makes the state tournament special.

IMO, 5 classes (even 3 or more classes) would be the end of HS hockey as we know it. There are too many alternative options available, especially to the elite players, that leaving HS would become the norm. Players already leave class A schools at a much higher rate than AA schools.

[HShockeywatcher]

In my rankings thread I mentioned that with 168 teams (which is 12 more than there are now) we could have a three class system if classes were adjusted to be equally sized, with 7 team sections given the top seed a first round bye.

You would have the bottom feeders of AA in the new AA and a good majority of A in the new A. I'm not saying it's what I want to happen, just an option. But how would that make more kids leave? In that scenario, there would be more kids playing hockey. In the more likely scenario of 3 classes happening when there's 192 teams, I can't see kids leaving because they are in Class AAA. Why would they simply because there's more teams out there?

Right now schools that are actually small A and AA football schools are in the "small school class" with AAA and AAAA football schools. And they schedule those teams to "better prepare" for the postseason. In a system with more classes, those teams could play against more similarly competitive schools more often.

If we got to 192 teams in the state and still had two classes, there would be 1 vs. 16 blowouts in every A section.

[goldy313]

We used to have 160 or so teams and had 1 class, section 1 at one time had 28 teams and no section had less than 15. They just gave the top few seeds byes into the quarterfinals, one year we didn't get as good of a seed as usual and played a playoff game, a regular season game then went back to the playoffs.

For what it's worth I can remember when making it to the section quarterfinals was a pretty big deal, making the semifinals and getting to play at the Met Center in front of 12,000 people was a huge accomplishment. More classes means getting there is quite a bit less of an achievement.

[StillAnEagle]

We used to have 160 or so teams and had 1 class, section 1 at one time had 28 teams and no section had less than 15. They just gave the top few seeds byes into the quarterfinals, one year we didn't get as good of a seed as usual and played a playoff game, a regular season game then went back to the playoffs.

For what it's worth I can remember when making it to the section quarterfinals was a pretty big deal, making the semifinals and getting to play at the Met Center in front of 12,000 people was a huge accomplishment. More classes means getting there is quite a bit less of an achievement.

Well said!

[HShockeywatcher]

We used to have 160 or so teams and had 1 class, section 1 at one time had 28 teams and no section had less than 15. They just gave the top few seeds byes into the quarterfinals, one year we didn't get as good of a seed as usual and played a playoff game, a regular season game then went back to the playoffs.

For what it's worth I can remember when making it to the section quarterfinals was a pretty big deal, making the semifinals and getting to play at the Met Center in front of 12,000 people was a huge accomplishment. More classes means getting there is quite a bit less of an achievement.

I don't disagree. While some have said different sports can operate differently, I'd personally like a system that works for all sports.

That being said, why not have one class in all sports? Realistically, all it means is one or two more games for the best teams in a couple sports. Only three extra in football. It would be an opportunity for small schools in all sports to get as far as they can. While winning a AA title many years in a row would be great, I bet getting closer to the big title than before would be a bigger accomplishment.

A system where not all teams made the playoffs would also solve this. Doubt that would go over with the MSHSL thought.

[PuckU126]

We used to have 160 or so teams and had 1 class, section 1 at one time had 28 teams and no section had less than 15. They just gave the top few seeds byes into the quarterfinals, one year we didn't get as good of a seed as usual and played a playoff game, a regular season game then went back to the playoffs.

For what it's worth I can remember when making it to the section quarterfinals was a pretty big deal, making the semifinals and getting to play at the Met Center in front of 12,000 people was a huge accomplishment. More classes means getting there is quite a bit less of an achievement.

I don't disagree. While some have said different sports can operate differently, I'd personally like a system that works for all sports.

That being said, why not have one class in all sports? Realistically, all it means is one or two more games for the best teams in a couple sports. Only three extra in football. It would be an opportunity for small schools in all sports to get as far as they can. While winning a AA title many years in a row would be great, I bet getting closer to the big title than before would be a bigger accomplishment.

A system where not all teams made the playoffs would also solve this. Doubt that would go over with the MSHSL thought.

You're correct on that statement.

[goldy313]

All sports are different that's why 1 system won't work. Football is clearly a numbers game, more kids means a higher chance for success. Hockey is an economic game, that's why the West suburbs and privates have such an advantage over others. In basketball 1 kid can make a difference 2 means you're very good.

25 years ago to make the state playoffs in AA football you had to win your conference or get the 1 at large bid to make the field of 8, no sections then in AA and it worked fine.

[paulsonj72]

Football changed the format in 1984 from needing to be a conference champion to the current section format. The 1st 2 or 3 years most AA(%A today) sections were 4 team section playoffs which meant you played 9 regular season games . By the way that rule does exist today. If any section wants to have only 4 teams make the playoffs they can have a 9 game regular season. The only game limit in football is that you can have a maximum of 11 games by the time the state quarterfinals roll around.

[The X]

All sports are different that's why 1 system won't work. Football is clearly a numbers game, more kids means a higher chance for success. Hockey is an economic game, that's why the West suburbs and privates have such an advantage over others. In basketball 1 kid can make a difference 2 means you're very good.

25 years ago to make the state playoffs in AA football you had to win your conference or get the 1 at large bid to make the field of 8, no sections then in AA and it worked fine.

I agree with your statement Goldy, hockey is an economic game. Since everybody knows this, will the MSHL keep the system the same even though some teams have a distinct advantage over other teams? Should a team like Lourdes be allowed to stay in section 1A when clearly they can compete with the best teams in class "A" and "AA"? Drawing from an area with 3 AA schools in town and a population over 100,000? Just using Lourdes as an example as there are others that have the same scenario in the metro. Clearly Lourdes will be strong for several more years. Will they consider to opt-up like St. Thomas is looking at doing?

[eastsideguy]

With the current section alignment it's a no brainer for lourdes, 1a or 1aa, they would be making a trip to the x

[DubCHAGuy]

Reading this thread, I get the feeling that going back to a Tier 1/Tier 2 format might actually be popular. It seems like people are more concerned with competitive balance than they are with matching schools based on enrollment.

[HShockeywatcher]

Reading this thread, I get the feeling that going back to a Tier 1/Tier 2 format might actually be popular. It seems like people are more concerned with competitive balance than they are with matching schools based on enrollment.

Right, which is what is so confusing to me. With the exception of probably football, no other sport crowns the top class champion as the best team in the state. It is often known that the best team is not in the top class. And those are congratulated, not put down.

If St Thomas (I just use them because of their schedule), for example were to go undefeated and win state, they would have beat some of the best AA schools in state and probably be the best all around team in state. Instead of congratulating them, people would look down on them. For their class.

But when teams who don't have such a tough schedule do that, like Hermantown in 2007, everyone crowns them the best A team and leaves it at that.

[The X]

Reading this thread, I get the feeling that going back to a Tier 1/Tier 2 format might actually be popular. It seems like people are more concerned with competitive balance than they are with matching schools based on enrollment.

Yes, I think high school sports should be driven by competitive balance. How can you classify schools by their enrollment given the situation that currently exists in high school hockey? There is no competitive balance right now between the two classes imo.

[The X]

With the current section alignment it's a no brainer for lourdes, 1a or 1aa, they would be making a trip to the x

Exactly, but obviously they would get more balanced competition in 1AA with the lakevilles.

[PuckU126]

With the current section alignment it's a no brainer for lourdes, 1a or 1aa, they would be making a trip to the x

Exactly, but obviously they would get more balanced competition in 1AA with the lakevilles.

They would be contenders; however, making a trip to the X would be a lot harder for them on the AA level.

[goldy313]

The biggest problem with the Tier system was you were rewarded for being 9th. They seeded every team in the section, #1 through #16 or however many teams you had just like they always did, then the top 8 were Tier 1, the rest Tier 2. A few tweaks in the system and it would have worked better.

[eastsideguy]

With the current section alignment it's a no brainer for lourdes, 1a or 1aa, they would be making a trip to the x

Exactly, but obviously they would get more balanced competition in 1AA with the lakevilles.

They would be contenders; however, making a trip to the X would be a lot harder for them on the AA level.

The lakevilles are not as good as Lourdes this year

[The X]

Exactly, but obviously they would get more balanced competition in 1AA with the lakevilles.

They would be contenders; however, making a trip to the X would be a lot harder for them on the AA level.

The lakevilles are not as good as Lourdes this year

Agreed, and will not be for the next 2 to 3 years actually.

[crickett75]

The biggest problem with the Tier system was you were rewarded for being 9th. They seeded every team in the section, #1 through #16 or however many teams you had just like they always did, then the top 8 were Tier 1, the rest Tier 2. A few tweaks in the system and it would have worked better.

The biggest problem with the tier system was the attention given to tier II. In college basketball they have a tier system, "Road to the Final Four" and the NIT. Nobody cares about the NIT except for the participating schools, and I think its only broadcast at 2am on ESPN 4.

Rewarding middling hockey with television is ludicrous. Only the participating schools will like it, everyone else will say how much it sucks...

[HShockeywatcher]

The biggest problem with the Tier system was you were rewarded for being 9th. They seeded every team in the section, #1 through #16 or however many teams you had just like they always did, then the top 8 were Tier 1, the rest Tier 2. A few tweaks in the system and it would have worked better.

The biggest problem with the tier system was the attention given to tier II. In college basketball they have a tier system, "Road to the Final Four" and the NIT. Nobody cares about the NIT except for the participating schools, and I think its only broadcast at 2am on ESPN 4.

Rewarding middling hockey with television is ludicrous. Only the participating schools will like it, everyone else will say how much it sucks...

Similar to how Class A is looked at now...

As I've always said, don't allow teams to opt up and you fix it

[crickett75]

The biggest problem with the Tier system was you were rewarded for being 9th. They seeded every team in the section, #1 through #16 or however many teams you had just like they always did, then the top 8 were Tier 1, the rest Tier 2. A few tweaks in the system and it would have worked better.

The biggest problem with the tier system was the attention given to tier II. In college basketball they have a tier system, "Road to the Final Four" and the NIT. Nobody cares about the NIT except for the participating schools, and I think its only broadcast at 2am on ESPN 4.

Rewarding middling hockey with television is ludicrous. Only the participating schools will like it, everyone else will say how much it sucks...

Similar to how Class A is looked at now...

As I've always said, don't allow teams to opt up and you fix it

Correct. Everyone should just ignore teams that don't want to be the best.

Everything else is NIT.

[The X]

The biggest problem with the tier system was the attention given to tier II. In college basketball they have a tier system, "Road to the Final Four" and the NIT. Nobody cares about the NIT except for the participating schools, and I think its only broadcast at 2am on ESPN 4.

Rewarding middling hockey with television is ludicrous. Only the participating schools will like it, everyone else will say how much it sucks...

Similar to how Class A is looked at now...

As I've always said, don't allow teams to opt up and you fix it

Correct. Everyone should just ignore teams that don't want to be the best.

Everything else is NIT.

So your saying that high school football should have just one champion and the other 4 classes just dont "want to be the best" so they should not even play the other 4 games? Hockey is no different, there are many small schools that have kids that enjoy playing hockey. Oh yes, this is the state of hockey correct? This is high school hockey, not college where teams can recruit and generate revenue for the university. This is where this new generation of hockey parents miss the boat, most of which have never laced up a skate in a high school game or youth level for that matter. If the privates and small schools that want to opt up play AA, the problem is solved. The playing field then becomes level and all high school kids have a chance to do something special in the state of hockey. What is wrong with that?

[HShockeywatcher]

The biggest problem with the tier system was the attention given to tier II. In college basketball they have a tier system, "Road to the Final Four" and the NIT. Nobody cares about the NIT except for the participating schools, and I think its only broadcast at 2am on ESPN 4.

Rewarding middling hockey with television is ludicrous. Only the participating schools will like it, everyone else will say how much it sucks...

Similar to how Class A is looked at now...

As I've always said, don't allow teams to opt up and you fix it

Correct. Everyone should just ignore teams that don't want to be the best.

Everything else is NIT.

Which is only a hockey opinion. If you read the article, only 25% of it was on hockey. Look at wrestling; if you know anything about wrestling around the state, you know most of the best teams in the state are not in the biggest class.

Do you want tournaments to represent the best teams from around the state while getting a chance to see schools of all sizes? Or do you want one champion?

[PuckU126]

The biggest problem with the Tier system was you were rewarded for being 9th. They seeded every team in the section, #1 through #16 or however many teams you had just like they always did, then the top 8 were Tier 1, the rest Tier 2. A few tweaks in the system and it would have worked better.

The biggest problem with the tier system was the attention given to tier II. In college basketball they have a tier system, "Road to the Final Four" and the NIT. Nobody cares about the NIT except for the participating schools, and I think its only broadcast at 2am on ESPN 4.

Rewarding middling hockey with television is ludicrous. Only the participating schools will like it, everyone else will say how much it sucks...

Similar to how Class A is looked at now...

As I've always said, don't allow teams to opt up and you fix it

You do have a point there... Sad but true (good song btw)

[crickett75]

Which is only a hockey opinion. If you read the article, only 25% of it was on hockey. Look at wrestling; if you know anything about wrestling around the state, you know most of the best teams in the state are not in the biggest class.

Do you want tournaments to represent the best teams from around the state while getting a chance to see schools of all sizes? Or do you want one champion?

Read your own post. YOUR even arguing against yourself. If most of the best teams are not the biggest, why wouldn't we see teams of all sizes in one class?