Why are Europeans and Canadians filling most NHL teams?

[observer]

I guess I don't know what you're saying. Maybe you need to restate that.

But, I think what the earlier poster is saying is that several of the very best athletes in Canada, and some European countries, are playing hockey. In the US there are several outstanding athletes where hockey wasn't their first choice. Until the last 10 years the sport was only played in 3-4 states total. Amazing athletes in Florida, Texas, California, etc. opted to play other sports that are big in those regions of the country. There are amazing studs in American football, baseball and basketball that might have played hockey had they grown up in Calgary. Take 5 Yankees, 5 Knicks and 5 Giants and introduce them to hockey as 6 year olds and you'd have a pretty good team today.

[Mite-dad]

another issue is the availbility of other sports (mentioned earlier)

On one of my trips to Canada 2 summers ago, I had a discussion with one of the coaches. In Canada all of the "elite" athletes play hockey, that's what they do. Sure some wrestle, some play baseball, some lacrosse, but hockey is the primary focus.

Here in America, face it, it's a football nation. Most of our "elite" athletes play football, maybe basketball, maybe baseball. Many of which have only seen the inside of a hockey rink during the Olympics on TV.

Put this in the waaaaaay out there category, BUT say an athlete as physically gifted as LeBron James (note: I said physically, not mentally!)grew up in Calgary instead of Cleveland.

Great point. If hockey was as popular as football in America, we would probably overtake Canada and the rest of the world in terms of producing elite players.

Exactly. How many Canadians or Swedes/Fins/Russians/Czechs are in the NFL, MLB or NBA?

[SWPrez]

another issue is the availbility of other sports (mentioned earlier)

On one of my trips to Canada 2 summers ago, I had a discussion with one of the coaches. In Canada all of the "elite" athletes play hockey, that's what they do. Sure some wrestle, some play baseball, some lacrosse, but hockey is the primary focus.

Here in America, face it, it's a football nation. Most of our "elite" athletes play football, maybe basketball, maybe baseball. Many of which have only seen the inside of a hockey rink during the Olympics on TV.

Put this in the waaaaaay out there category, BUT say an athlete as physically gifted as LeBron James (note: I said physically, not mentally!)grew up in Calgary instead of Cleveland.

Great point. If hockey was as popular as football in America, we would probably overtake Canada and the rest of the world in terms of producing elite players.

Exactly. How many Canadians or Swedes/Fins/Russians/Czechs are in the NFL, MLB or NBA?

Only Canada is a hockey centric country of the ones you named. Sweden suffers the same fight to get quality athletes into hockey. Kids have more options to play sports there than they do here: soccer, floorball, team handball, bandy, Nordic sports (downhill and cross country), tennis, and more are all fighting for athletes. Yet Sweden continues to develop high end talent at a fast pace.

I was surprised that in a Swedish city (Vasteras) with almost 200,000 metropolitan population they had virtually no girls program. I asked why and they said there are just too many competing sports and options for the kids.

Same applies in Russia, Finland, and the Czech Republic. Just turn on Eurosport when you are over there and you will see a half dozen sports you have never seen or heard of before!

My point is - these countries are taking the limited number of kids that come their way and they are developing them into stud athletes through programming that teaches athleticism.

Think about this - just about every team in the NHL has a Finnish goalie in their system. If they are not on the current roster, they are one or two steps away from the show. At the same time, where are Minnesota goalies and what is going wrong with their development?

Comes back to athleticism. All of the Finnish goalies have been trained to be great athletes first, goalies second. Culturally, Europe and Russia have an advantage over how we do things here and it will continue to be harder and harder to compete.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Comes back to athleticism. All of the Finnish goalies have been trained to be great athletes first, goalies second. Culturally, Europe and Russia have an advantage over how we do things here and it will continue to be harder and harder to compete.

Interesting post Prez... in my experience though you can't create great athletes through training... you can make good athletes and non-athletes better.

Do you think that the fins just put more of their natural athletes into goaltending at an early age?

[Mite-dad]

Great point. If hockey was as popular as football in America, we would probably overtake Canada and the rest of the world in terms of producing elite players.

Exactly. How many Canadians or Swedes/Fins/Russians/Czechs are in the NFL, MLB or NBA?

Only Canada is a hockey centric country of the ones you named. Sweden suffers the same fight to get quality athletes into hockey. Kids have more options to play sports there than they do here: soccer, floorball, team handball, bandy, Nordic sports (downhill and cross country), tennis, and more are all fighting for athletes. Yet Sweden continues to develop high end talent at a fast pace.

I was surprised that in a Swedish city (Vasteras) with almost 200,000 metropolitan population they had virtually no girls program. I asked why and they said there are just too many competing sports and options for the kids.

Same applies in Russia, Finland, and the Czech Republic. Just turn on Eurosport when you are over there and you will see a half dozen sports you have never seen or heard of before!

My point is - these countries are taking the limited number of kids that come their way and they are developing them into stud athletes through programming that teaches athleticism.

Think about this - just about every team in the NHL has a Finnish goalie in their system. If they are not on the current roster, they are one or two steps away from the show. At the same time, where are Minnesota goalies and what is going wrong with their development?

Comes back to athleticism. All of the Finnish goalies have been trained to be great athletes first, goalies second. Culturally, Europe and Russia have an advantage over how we do things here and it will continue to be harder and harder to compete.

I'm clueless about athletes in those countries, but I'm guessing hockey is still pulling a lot of the best athletes to the sport. In this country the best athletes play other sports. Hockey is way down the list. And, imvho, athletes, for the most part, are born not made.

[JSR]

Exactly. How many Canadians or Swedes/Fins/Russians/Czechs are in the NFL, MLB or NBA?

Only Canada is a hockey centric country of the ones you named. Sweden suffers the same fight to get quality athletes into hockey. Kids have more options to play sports there than they do here: soccer, floorball, team handball, bandy, Nordic sports (downhill and cross country), tennis, and more are all fighting for athletes. Yet Sweden continues to develop high end talent at a fast pace.

I was surprised that in a Swedish city (Vasteras) with almost 200,000 metropolitan population they had virtually no girls program. I asked why and they said there are just too many competing sports and options for the kids.

Same applies in Russia, Finland, and the Czech Republic. Just turn on Eurosport when you are over there and you will see a half dozen sports you have never seen or heard of before!

My point is - these countries are taking the limited number of kids that come their way and they are developing them into stud athletes through programming that teaches athleticism.

Think about this - just about every team in the NHL has a Finnish goalie in their system. If they are not on the current roster, they are one or two steps away from the show. At the same time, where are Minnesota goalies and what is going wrong with their development?

Comes back to athleticism. All of the Finnish goalies have been trained to be great athletes first, goalies second. Culturally, Europe and Russia have an advantage over how we do things here and it will continue to be harder and harder to compete.

I'm clueless about athletes in those countries, but I'm guessing hockey is still pulling a lot of the best athletes to the sport. In this country the best athletes play other sports. Hockey is way down the list. And, imvho, athletes, for the most part, are born not made.

THis has been hashed over ad nauseum on here but I believe kids are born with certain amounts of athletic ability but from there they are "made" not born. I see it in small communities and large. My guess is atleast half the kids in your own kids school were born with a certain amount of decent to good athleticism, from there the ones who go further in sports are generally the ones who train hardest and work hardest at their sports.

[black sheep]

Skill without true knowledge of the game is something I see a lot of.

i agree 100% with this. It is seen at many levels. way too much individual play in all US hockey.

In Canada your are ridiculed for making dumb plays, in US you made a nice try. Watch a Canadian Junior game and count how many times a players turn the puck over at a blue line, then watch a MN High School game...the difference is alarming. Canada plays defense first hockey, US is offense first. Watch a Canadian NHL game and listen to the crowd cheer when a nice D play is made...Many US fanbases don't cheer until a goal is scored or there is a fight.

Europe is also much harsher than US, if you are not good enough go home. Thats it. Sports there are a privledge, not a right. In the US we use alot of resources on players who will never be elite regardless.

But, the US is improving and you are seeing more successful young US NHL players now than ever. We are competing at the Junior levels with Europe & Canada. The game is branching out but until it is made more accessible to top athletes we will never be the top dogs.

[nahc]

As we all are aware, Hockey is a very expensive sport. How are kids supported financially in other countries? Does the govt pick up the tab or does the $$$ come out of parent pockets like here in the states?

[MrBoDangles]

History shows that most of the best Hockey players were not the most naturally (6'4" 230 natural build..... Maybe Mario?) gifted in size athletes.

Hockey is a highly skilled sport.

[SWPrez]

As we all are aware, Hockey is a very expensive sport. How are kids supported financially in other countries? Does the govt pick up the tab or does the $$$ come out of parent pockets like here in the states?

Definitely another advantage. Most Swedish hockey clubs run from youth all the way to Professional. Corporate community sponsorship is heavy. This sponsorship extends from the pro team down to the youth teams. Local Facilities are also sponsored by local corporations, defraying costs for facility use. Players still need to buy their equipment and I am sure there are subsidized ice dues.

Here is our association's 'sister club' in Sweden:
http://www.vik.se/
Youth programs are found under the 'ovriga lag' button.

At the older ages (96' and older), many of the clubs offer Hockey School (gymnasiet). Kids attend the school academically, and train/play hockey several times a day as part of the curriculum. By offering specialized schools (just about every sport has 'magnet' schools), the schools attract more students and receive more gov't $$$. This also substantially defrays training costs.

[old goalie85]

SW. Prez.. Well then how does the multi-sport athlete fit in. [that I believe in & usah says is a must]

[SWPrez]

SW. Prez.. Well then how does the multi-sport athlete fit in. [that I believe in & usah says is a must]

The '96s and older have dialed into hockey as their #1. The herd gets thinned if you know what I mean. There are no Excel Leagues, Recreational Leagues, or even what we would call "B2" or "C" leagues as there is no ice availability (4 rinks for a metro of 200,000 - 2 of the rinks are walled on three sides and open air on one side and used for practices). Younger than that they play seasonal sports.

From a US paradigm, we believe we need to have other structured sports with games and tournaments to satisfy the 'multi-sport' thing. When the Swedish kids train, they play soccer, floorball, run, and do other activities including orienteering in order to get other activity/multi-sports in.

When our kids were over this last fall, they got there an hour and a half early, played soccer for twenty minutes, went for a 5k run, weight trained, practiced on ice, and went for another 5k run. Each practice was about a three hour commitment and there were multi-sport activities.

Most hockey players are pretty good golfers too as that is a favored offseason sport.

[old goalie85]

Sounds like a great trip. Much different set-up.

[MnMade-4-Life]

SW. Prez.. Well then how does the multi-sport athlete fit in. [that I believe in & usah says is a must]

The '96s and older have dialed into hockey as their #1. The herd gets thinned if you know what I mean. There are no Excel Leagues, Recreational Leagues, or even what we would call "B2" or "C" leagues as there is no ice availability (4 rinks for a metro of 200,000 - 2 of the rinks are walled on three sides and open air on one side and used for practices). Younger than that they play seasonal sports.

From a US paradigm, we believe we need to have other structured sports with games and tournaments to satisfy the 'multi-sport' thing. When the Swedish kids train, they play soccer, floorball, run, and do other activities including orienteering in order to get other activity/multi-sports in.

When our kids were over this last fall, they got there an hour and a half early, played soccer for twenty minutes, went for a 5k run, weight trained, practiced on ice, and went for another 5k run. Each practice was about a three hour commitment and there were multi-sport activities.

Most hockey players are pretty good golfers too as that is a favored offseason sport.

do they ever come over here?

[SWPrez]

SW. Prez.. Well then how does the multi-sport athlete fit in. [that I believe in & usah says is a must]

The '96s and older have dialed into hockey as their #1. The herd gets thinned if you know what I mean. There are no Excel Leagues, Recreational Leagues, or even what we would call "B2" or "C" leagues as there is no ice availability (4 rinks for a metro of 200,000 - 2 of the rinks are walled on three sides and open air on one side and used for practices). Younger than that they play seasonal sports.

From a US paradigm, we believe we need to have other structured sports with games and tournaments to satisfy the 'multi-sport' thing. When the Swedish kids train, they play soccer, floorball, run, and do other activities including orienteering in order to get other activity/multi-sports in.

When our kids were over this last fall, they got there an hour and a half early, played soccer for twenty minutes, went for a 5k run, weight trained, practiced on ice, and went for another 5k run. Each practice was about a three hour commitment and there were multi-sport activities.

Most hockey players are pretty good golfers too as that is a favored offseason sport.

do they ever come over here?

Last summer a couple of '93s came over and skated in the U of M Model Camp for high schoolers. They stayed at one of our member's home. All of their teams have an open invitation to come over here. May have one or two '94s come over this summer to do the same.

We also partner with the Tillberga (a suburb) bandy club and our kids also skate and train with them while over there. They brought 20 kids over about four years ago and are planning on coming again in 2012.

Here is the 2010 trip:
http://minneapolispark.pucksystems2.com ... bandy-blog

[O-townClown]

AAA is the biggest factor making our kids more competitive in todays market.

You may be 100% right, but there are an army of college coaches that disagree. At that level, some kids from affluent backgrounds are skilled enough to play but lack the drive needed to get better. Ask an NCAA coach about "three-car garage" kids and I'm sure they can cite examples of this.

In Canada, tons of kids make the NHL without playing in their Tier I system. Lots grow up as mostly Tier II players.

[MrBoDangles]

AAA is the biggest factor making our kids more competitive in todays market.

You may be 100% right, but there are an army of college coaches that disagree. At that level, some kids from affluent backgrounds are skilled enough to play but lack the drive needed to get better. Ask an NCAA coach about "three-car garage" kids and I'm sure they can cite examples of this.

In Canada, tons of kids make the NHL without playing in their Tier I system. Lots grow up as mostly Tier II players.

Would you explain this theory a little more..

[O-townClown]

Would you explain this theory a little more..

Bo, it is widely documented in many sports. Boxing's champions come from an oppressed class. Look at how many Italian and Jewish champions there were in the first half of the last century, and how things dried up as those groups moved from immigrants to the next generation that was born here.

Soccer players on the Brazilian national team rarely are middle class. In hockey, the U.S. and Canada constantly preach the importance of keeping the sport affordable to expand the player pool.

AAA hockey is elitist. The notion that it is the "best" place is laughable to many college coaches when you consider the cost. The league for the fabled five Detroit Tier I programs includes Kansas City, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Cleveland, Madison, Pittsburgh, and other areas.

http://www.tier1elitehockeyleague.com/p ... boys-teams

NFL scouts miss frequently because they can't predict what will happen to a player's motivation once they get paid. Super Bowls are now won by the teams that can fill their roster with low paid guys that were overlooked.

As youth hockey parents, most look at their kid's career with a pretty short time horizon. Teams like Bemidji and RIT can make the Frozen Four because they have found players that just keep working and working over several years. Many were not the "elite" Tier I players as youths.

[Ugottobekiddingme]

[clop clop]
ARTHUR: Old woman!
DENNIS: Man!
ARTHUR: Old Man, sorry. What knight live in that castle over there?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven -- I'm not old!
ARTHUR: Well, I can't just call you `Man'.
DENNIS: Well, you could say `Dennis'.
ARTHUR: Well, I didn't know you were called `Dennis.'
DENNIS: Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?
ARTHUR: I did say sorry about the `old woman,' but from the behind
you looked--
DENNIS: What I object to is you automatically treat me like an inferior!
ARTHUR: Well, I AM king...
DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. An' how'd you get that, eh? By
exploitin' the workers -- by 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma
which perpetuates the economic an' social differences in our society!
If there's ever going to be any progress--
WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh -- how d'you do?
ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
Who's castle is that?
WOMAN: King of the who?
ARTHUR: The Britons.
WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous
collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship.
A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives
in that castle?
WOMAN: No one live there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take
it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified
at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, 'ow did you become king then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,
[angels sing]
her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur
from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I,
Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power
just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just
because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd
put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here that,
eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me,
you saw it didn't you?


So much for looking for a home with a "three car garage"....I'm going to show my players repression to get results...new training starts tomorrow. Clown, is there a video I can share with my skaters?

[AlterEagle]

As far as Canada goes, Canadians just know the game better than Americans because of better coaching.

What's the ratio for European to USA born players in the NHL?