defense wrote:Probably right on Apollo,I hadn't thought they felloff that much.
That said, Alex did lose to them. Shouldn't that be considered?
I would still consider Apollo a contender but after the disappointing loss to Willmar and the terrible performance and loss to Sartell shows that Apollo still has a lot to work on, but at the same time hey also have beaten Alex and played both Little Falls and Fergus close. Time will tell with the Eagles but they have to figure things out real quick.
Apollo likely is a contender but, at what level? And where do they get seeded now?
I have to start grouping them with the next group which includes Willmar and Breck wahp in my opinion. No matter if you use Apollo or not, I still say lf is on top with ff second and Alex third.
See this is what its about. All of us who cant get enough hockey conversing about pretty insignificant issues. Keep putting the post up week after week hshw, ill always find some interest in it.
PuckRanger, you are right on about the BCS, they are actually probably going to be changing things this year. The system isn't the point and you know it. Right now Murray St is ranked 16th in BB (actually went down a spot from last week) and they are undefeated. Baylor is undefeated and at #4. A few years ago Morris/Benson started two seasons undefeated for a good chunk of the season and was nowhere on any rankings; heck this year St Louis Park was undefeated for a while and on no rankings.
Sure, their schedules aren't as good as Hermantown's but they also weren't good.
I'm still missing where I'm somehow "reasoning my Cadets into the top spot." They have played very well this season and their only losses were games they played well in. I try my best to be as consistent as I can. I spend more time than most of you think analyzing stats and scores and such and there's a lot that goes into the results.
Instead of using vague statements telling me how I'm use logic one way for one team and one way for another, give me an example. Don't picking and choosing what you respond to of mind to make your point, but respond to the questions I have.
When you guys post criticism, I respond to every point that is made to be thorough. If my logic is somehow flawed, respond to the questions I ask about it. In the first weeks how I started my ranking was questioned and I asked what people didn't like about it on both the board and in PMs to numerous people. Zero responses.
Someone just used one game comparisons to show that Hermantown must be the best team and then I did the same thing to show that Hermantown must suck. When I explain why my opinion is opposite of those posted nothing is said in response.
What I see is admitted Hermantown fans and people from the north saying Hermantown is #1 while calling an STA grad biased. If no one sees the irony in that, well now you should. I love seeing them do well, but I also have ties to 3 of the top 4 teams; I'm from mpls so I guess you could say all 4. It's cool to see any of the teams do well. There is no right or wrong way to do this and I have tried to be as consistent as I can over the last couple years. But I'm not perfect, so I look for constructive criticism, in fact I ask for it almost every week. In AA, all the top teams play each other. Not the same in A, so it comes down to opinion.
You're right, I'd love to see them play more games. I wish I was in a position to be able to and I wish more top Class A games were streamed. But at the end of the day, watching some, and not all, will have bias in your opinion. The point of this game is to put the puck in the net, period. So, it comes down to how you do that and who you do it against. If "dominating your opponent" on the ice was what it was all about, St Thomas would have at least one less loss, maybe two (depending on who you ask). But it's not.
You point out that the Hermantown coach doesn't care about how his play will affect the rankings. If that's true, then why do you care so much about it? Which is it; do you care or not care?
You admit that scores may make it look like they aren't as good, but I'm supposed to take that as them being better?
Anyway, I'm rambling. If you have constructive criticism to give, please give it. There are questions I have about criticism that I've asked numerous time that haven't been answered. I'd prefer to do "this" once, rather than every week.
elliott70 wrote:Watcher has a built in bias.
A recent STA grad.
Also, a private school bias.
Also, lack of seeing games other than teams that played against STA, and now some games in the Duluth area.
He is also very young with virtually no hockey experience.
BUT, he does do research and he does a decent summary.
His logic (as viewed by some) may be biased and flawed, but the effort is what counts AND he gives us fodder to generate discussion.
Bottom line, he helps make all this fun, so keep it up Watcher.
(And to thet critics, keep it up, also.)
Agreed. I enjoy a good debate, especially when it's versus a private school alum.
elliott70 wrote:Watcher has a built in bias.
A recent STA grad.
Also, a private school bias.
Also, lack of seeing games other than teams that played against STA, and now some games in the Duluth area.
He is also very young with virtually no hockey experience.
BUT, he does do research and he does a decent summary.
His logic (as viewed by some) may be biased and flawed, but the effort is what counts AND he gives us fodder to generate discussion.
Bottom line, he helps make all this fun, so keep it up Watcher.
(And to thet critics, keep it up, also.)
.
I agree with Elliott,
Keep up the good work HSHW
Yes, I agree with Elliott also. Watcher does help make this fun and he gets my blood pumpin!
Keep up the good work
PuckRanger wrote:Whether your aware of it or not, you have used the same arguments both for STA and then against Hermantown more than once. Its harder than it looks to remain unbiased.
I'm not; fill me in. There are two reasons the Hawks aren't higher on my list:
a. Having to come back from behind against lesser opponents.
b. Playing lesser opponents close.
There has been more than one week I expected them to do better than they did and expected to be putting them at #1 but they didn't.
a. applies to one game for St Thomas; their first game of the season.
b. applies to one game for St Thomas; a 1-0 shut out of SSP.
HShockeywatcher wrote:PuckRanger, you are right on about the BCS, they are actually probably going to be changing things this year. The system isn't the point and you know it. Right now Murray St is ranked 16th in BB (actually went down a spot from last week) and they are undefeated. Baylor is undefeated and at #4. A few years ago Morris/Benson started two seasons undefeated for a good chunk of the season and was nowhere on any rankings; heck this year St Louis Park was undefeated for a while and on no rankings.
Sure, their schedules aren't as good as Hermantown's but they also weren't good.
I'm still missing where I'm somehow "reasoning my Cadets into the top spot." They have played very well this season and their only losses were games they played well in. I try my best to be as consistent as I can. I spend more time than most of you think analyzing stats and scores and such and there's a lot that goes into the results.
Instead of using vague statements telling me how I'm use logic one way for one team and one way for another, give me an example. Don't picking and choosing what you respond to of mind to make your point, but respond to the questions I have.
When you guys post criticism, I respond to every point that is made to be thorough. If my logic is somehow flawed, respond to the questions I ask about it. In the first weeks how I started my ranking was questioned and I asked what people didn't like about it on both the board and in PMs to numerous people. Zero responses.
Someone just used one game comparisons to show that Hermantown must be the best team and then I did the same thing to show that Hermantown must suck. When I explain why my opinion is opposite of those posted nothing is said in response.
What I see is admitted Hermantown fans and people from the north saying Hermantown is #1 while calling an STA grad biased. If no one sees the irony in that, well now you should. I love seeing them do well, but I also have ties to 3 of the top 4 teams; I'm from mpls so I guess you could say all 4. It's cool to see any of the teams do well. There is no right or wrong way to do this and I have tried to be as consistent as I can over the last couple years. But I'm not perfect, so I look for constructive criticism, in fact I ask for it almost every week. In AA, all the top teams play each other. Not the same in A, so it comes down to opinion.
You're right, I'd love to see them play more games. I wish I was in a position to be able to and I wish more top Class A games were streamed. But at the end of the day, watching some, and not all, will have bias in your opinion. The point of this game is to put the puck in the net, period. So, it comes down to how you do that and who you do it against. If "dominating your opponent" on the ice was what it was all about, St Thomas would have at least one less loss, maybe two (depending on who you ask). But it's not.
You point out that the Hermantown coach doesn't care about how his play will affect the rankings. If that's true, then why do you care so much about it? Which is it; do you care or not care?
You admit that scores may make it look like they aren't as good, but I'm supposed to take that as them being better?
Anyway, I'm rambling. If you have constructive criticism to give, please give it. There are questions I have about criticism that I've asked numerous time that haven't been answered. I'd prefer to do "this" once, rather than every week.
CLASS A RANKINGS
Jan. 15th, 2012
1 Hermantown (5A) 15-0-0
2 Breck School (2A) 11-1-0
3 St. Thomas Acad (4A) 9-3-0
STA has lost 3 games. Granted they have lost to good teams but they have lost.
Do these 3 teams play the same schedule - no.
BUT they all are playing good teams on a regular basis.
SOS is a good sounding board but a computer assigned number of 17.5 versus 18.0 is still a coputerized number - it does not and cannot taccount for all factors and therefore is not 100% right.
PuckRanger wrote:Whether your aware of it or not, you have used the same arguments both for STA and then against Hermantown more than once. Its harder than it looks to remain unbiased.
I'm not; fill me in. There are two reasons the Hawks aren't higher on my list:
a. Having to come back from behind against lesser opponents.
b. Playing lesser opponents close.
There has been more than one week I expected them to do better than they did and expected to be putting them at #1 but they didn't.
a. applies to one game for St Thomas; their first game of the season.
b. applies to one game for St Thomas; a 1-0 shut out of SSP.
If I'm missing something, fill me in.
I would like to hear a concise explanation as to why you have Breck ahead of Hermantown. Their schedules so far have been very similar in difficulty, and Hermantown won their big AA matchup convincingly while Breck lost theirs convincingly. This situation in any other poll, in any other sport, would result in the team in Hermantown's position being moved ahead of the team in Breck's position.
Putting STA ahead of Hermantown is defensible, putting Breck ahead is not.
After 5 days I have not heard responses to any of my points here or any of the PMs I sent out; seems to me like those of you who are complaining just want something to complain about, not to actually change what's happening.
Hermantown won another close one late; sounds like the rule changes are having an effect on games.
The QRF also has Simley at 12
If you take anything away from the QRF more than that it's hard to take anything much from it, you are in the minority.
So all of these rankings say Breck is better than St Thomas; the human polls say Hermantown is better than Breck/St Thomas and the computer rankings say Breck/St Thomas are better than Hermantown. Seems pretty even to me. And really, I understand it; Hermantown is winning. Period. It doesn't matter who they are beating, or how, they are winning.
Saying the "what" over and over doesn't explain the "why" any better. But keep ignoring all of my points.
As I state weekly, this is my opinion about how to order three very close teams. All three are up there and I wouldn't argue with anyone's opinion saying that they are in any order at this point. The winner of today's game will likely get the top seed at state (imo) and the other will be at the mercy of voters. I don't know what it is taken like a personal attack to people to be #3 and have the person posting repeating weekly that they very well could be the top team, it's just hard to tell from schedule/game results at the moment.
Anyway, way past my bed time, have a good hockey day MN.
HShockeywatcher wrote:
As I state weekly, this is my opinion about how to order three very close teams. All three are up there and I wouldn't argue with anyone's opinion saying that they are in any order at this point. The winner of today's game will likely get the top seed at state (imo) and the other will be at the mercy of voters.
IMO, # 1 seed is in Hermantown's control. If they run the table and remain undefeated, no matter how they win, they will be the #1 seed. Winner of Sta/Breck will be 2. Herm loses any games then the winner of Sta/Breck #1 and #2up in the air.
HShockeywatcher wrote:
As I state weekly, this is my opinion about how to order three very close teams. All three are up there and I wouldn't argue with anyone's opinion saying that they are in any order at this point. The winner of today's game will likely get the top seed at state (imo) and the other will be at the mercy of voters.
IMO, # 1 seed is in Hermantown's control. If they run the table and remain undefeated, no matter how they win, they will be the #1 seed. Winner of Sta/Breck will be 2. Herm loses any games then the winner of Sta/Breck #1 and #2up in the air.
3 years ago Little Falls also "earned" the #1 seed by being undefeated with an easy schedule and then got crushed by the eventual state champion.
