Class A Rankings 2-10-13

[OldTimePuck00]

Or SCC could just do the ballsy thing and move up to AA where they belong. They draw the best talent from a large metro area. Why not sack up and play with the big boys?

Baby steps. Lets get STA and Breck, the teams with the big budgets where they belong first. The Twin Cities metro of over 3 million is much larger than Duluth, St. Cloud, or Rochester's 70,000+approximately another ~35k if you count their respective "metro areas".

[mn miracle man]

Now it seems that Posters are saying they want early games to carry more weight? Really?? So is that how you justify your wild swings that now have RL and SCC above HT?? You decided to do that now that the season is just about over? Change your methodology on the end of season rankings? You are a piece of work, I'll give you that.

All season my methodology has been based the ranks on results of games, using the weight of the most recent more heavily than previous. I have also listened to posters and the results of my polls and adjusted accordingly. Class A is so diverse with many of the teams who do not play each other and also very few people who can see all of the teams play, myself included, which is why I highly value all of the constructive feedback I can get. I use it regularly.

My poll last week showed that not many people think TRF should be where they are. Comments last week from people were also that because of the whoopin' the Hawks put on the Prowlers early in the season, Hermantown couldn't possibly be ranked lower than TRF.
I don't read minds and there were zero posts about TRF being lower and zero very descriptive posts about Hermantown being higher.
It appeared, to me, that 1 game 17 games previous counted more to some people than the 17 that happened since.

Cathedral has beaten Breck while losing to a couple teams one wouldn't expect them to. Apparently they had missing players in some, but I don't know. Right now they are on a 9 game win streak, which was started with a win over Hermantown and includes a recent victory over Princeton. They were below Princeton last week, but proved to currently be the better team. It would be hard for me to keep them below Hermantown at this point.
Lourdes is one of those teams that has been in limbo all season as they has lost to really good teams and beaten worse teams. There is little evidence they couldn't be the 3rd best team in Class A. In their 4th game of the season they beat Cathedral.

It continues to intrigue me that people only rant and rave about the things that don't benefit their team from being where they want, but when the exact same things happen to another team, it's okay.
Breck dropped quite a few spots early from a loss to a ranked team and no one cared, but then when Hermantown did the same, I was suddenly a Hermantown hater.
The same has been true all season for teams jumping up. Where's the love for Totino? In two weeks they went from 3 to 11.

In my opinion, you have to think of Class A as more of a fluid list than something set in stone. This is what I've heard from many as well. There are 6-8 teams that on any given night any could be the victor and a loss could drop you quite a few spots while a win could do the same in the other direction.
I respect your opinion of where you think your team should be. It is not mine, but I respect it and will continue to.

The last two seasons I have had Hermantown supporters tell me how stupid I was for not having them number 1, saying many of the same things you are, and when push came to shove Hermantown lost to the team I had at number 1. Then the excuses flew.
This year they don't have the record against Class A they did those years (0 losses outside of state final) or the consistency (one game last year of more than 3GA) and somehow it's different this year?

By the way Spinner, Zevnik gave up 4 goals on 19 shots in a 4-4-tie with Tartan. I did the math for you. That’s a goal every 4.75 shots. You didn’t say much about this. In your STAA summary you make it sound like Zevnik was not in the nets. Quote: “The Cadets stumbled with a tie to Tartan then racked up many points against Simley. They will likely pick up two wins and some more playing time for the backup goalie this week”. The score sheet has Zevnik as the goalie in this game… So who was in the nets in the Tartan game?

Imo, Breck and Hermantown are tied, and either one of them can give STAA a run for its money; especially with the goaltending STAA had against Tartan.

Not sure what you didn't understand, but I never said he wasn't in net against Tartan. He was in net against Tartan and Conor Murphy (back up goalie) played against Simley. My guess is that Murphy will likely play one or both of the games this week. Maybe even the first playoff game, but I haven't a clue.

I can do the math, but thanks. It's also a 79% save percentage. It's not an excuse, although I know it won't matter to you, but Mr. Hockey finalist Jake Jackson was involved in 3 of the 4 goals against that game. Regardless of why it was, it was Zevnik's third game of the season with more than 2GA. Everyone has off games. I'm sure he'll be fine going forward.

To me, it has little to do with which teams are represented and more to do with as much of an actual geographic assignment of the teams, since that's what the MSHSL claims it is doing. If that is really the only thing considered, there is a lot wrong with this map:
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/googlemap_ne ... 0&dclass=A

Proctor/Hermantown in 5A and not 7A.
Why aren't Apollo, Cathedral, Sartell and Sauk Rapids all in the same section, whatever section that is?
There's also a lot of interesting things that could be done in the 2A/4A/5A area. Chisago in 4A and not 5A?
Mankato into section 3 and Litch/Hutch into 6 would likely make some sense too.
I would also likely send Int. Falls over to 8 and get Detroit Lakes and Park Rapids, and maybe even Bagley into 6.
In the end, though, it would be difficult arrange things so all sections were competitive with each other if that was a part of your goal.

It's clear drive time/money is not the only thing they are concerned with, as they say it is, so I'm curious if anyone knows how the rest is determined?
Who says "hey, let's draw an arbitrary line right down the middle of St Cloud dividing sections"?
Taking a quick glance at other sports, with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 instances per sport, I don't see any other sport with the glaring geographic issues that hockey has.

You are correct, HShockeywatcher, in saying its based on geography. It is based solely on that and nothing more. Zero consideration is given to level of competition other than which class they play in. They start at the outside corners and work in, thus you have the sections in the NW, NE, SE, SW and they move inward from there as the sections fill up. I think this is rather obvious to me when you look at the map. You don't see a an odd color marker anywhere in the middle of any other area. This "theoretically" produces the most efficient drive time possibilities for section play. (In reality, that doesn't always work out.) The reason you see the more distant sections (like 5A and 7AA) is because they don't want a section with 13 teams and another with only 7 or 8.

That was the case with Proctor and Hermantown in 5A. 7A had a full 10 teams in it when the realignment was done last, so they were not going to have a 13 team section, thus Proctor, Denfeld, and Hermantown were shifted south into 5A, whom without them would have only had 8 teams. (Since then Silver Bay combined with Two Harbors and Duluth Central joined with Denfeld so this will probably change next year to bring 7A back to 10 or 11 teams.)

Right now sections have either 9, 10, 11 or 12 teams. There are 2 sections of each size; currently 84 teams in Class A.

If 5A (11) gave two teams (Hermantown and Proctor) to 7A (10), both teams would still between 9 and 12.
If 6A (10) gave two (Sartell and Apollo) to 5A (now 9), 5A would then have the 11 they have no but be more geographically centered and 6A would then have 8.
Then 8A (10) could give 6A one or two (Detroit Lakes and/or Park Rapids), and 8A would be at 8 or 9 and 6A back to 8 or 9.
You could also take Chisago from 4A and put them in 5A, which would allow Cathedral/Sauk Rapids to go to 6A.
All of this moving would keep sections between the current 9 and 12 teams they have.

I don't personally care where International Falls is, but arguing they stay for conference affiliation and then arguing not to move schools like Hermantown, Proctor, Detroits Lakes, Sauk Rapids and likely others for the same reason seems illogical to me. Conferences and sections are not the same thing and while they line up often, they don't always.
That being said, if drive time/money/geography is truly the main concern, it's really a wash if the section tournament is held anywhere other than EGF, especially if each tournament were held in the most geographically central locations. Ultimately I don't care, it was just a thought.

I am not the first to make many of these observations, but if you want to maintain that basically everything I say is wrong, you're more than welcome to. I'm not even claiming the moves I'd suggest are perfect, simply that there is no way what the sections currently are is the most central geographically speaking. But if it makes you feel better, I admit it, I was wrong.

Your proposals were spot on with realignment in my opinion UNTIL the bolded portion. What logic are you using where you would take Sartell/Apollo out of 6A to go to 5A but then remove SCC and Sauk Rapids to then replace them in 6A? Sartell/Apollo are further away from 5A then the current Granite City area teams to begin with. Here is what that proposal would look like without the last comments...and should look like....(new teams in BOLD)


3A
Fairmont
Hutchinson
Litchfield
Luverne
Marshall
New Ulm
Redwood Valley
Willmar
Windom
Worthington
(10)
**Willmar could easily slide into this section


5A
Chisago Lakes
Legacy Christian Academy
Moose Lake
Mora
North Branch
Pine City
Princeton
Rogers
Little Falls
(9)
**Chisago Lakes makes more sense here than with the St. Paul schools, and Little Falls is already in a conference with Princeton and Mora for other sports


6A
Alexandria
Breckenridge
Fergus Falls
Morris/Benson
Prairie Centre
Sartell
Sauk Rapids
St. Cloud Apollo
St. Cloud Cathedral
Wadena
(10)
**Now the Granite City Schools are together in one section

7A
Duluth Denfeld
Duluth Marshall
Ely
Eveleth
Greenway
Hermantown
Hibbing
International Falls
Proctor
Silver Bay
Virginia MIB
(11)
**Hermantown and Proctor back where they belong (Hermantown/Proctor are in iron range district for youth hockey as well)

8A
Bagley
Crookston
Detroit Lakes
EGF
Kittson Central
Lake of the Woods
Park Rapids
Red Lake Falls
TRF
Warroad
(10)
**Nothing should need to change as the section is about as geographically sound as it needs to be right now while not messing up other sections as well


Anyone have any suggestions? If only the MSHSL made this much sense

[/b]

[HawkeyPower]

**Hermantown and Proctor back where they belong (Hermantown/Proctor are in iron range district for youth hockey as well)

Hermantown and Proctor are in District 11 with Duluth East, Denfeld, Cloquet. Iron Range associations are District 12.

And Rogers will be AA next year.

[mn miracle man]

**Hermantown and Proctor back where they belong (Hermantown/Proctor are in iron range district for youth hockey as well)

Hermantown and Proctor are in District 11 with Duluth East, Denfeld, Cloquet. Iron Range associations are District 12.

And Rogers will be AA next year.

Thank you, I didn't realize they had it split up like that now.

In that case, to account for Rogers you could leave Proctor in 5A (we all know they couldn't ever compete in 7A anyways) to keep it at 9 teams. Then 7A would go to a more manageable 10 teams anyways!

[HShockeywatcher]

If 5A (11) gave two teams (Hermantown and Proctor) to 7A (10), both teams would still between 9 and 12.
If 6A (10) gave two (Sartell and Apollo) to 5A (now 9), 5A would then have the 11 they have no but be more geographically centered and 6A would then have 8.
Then 8A (10) could give 6A one or two (Detroit Lakes and/or Park Rapids), and 8A would be at 8 or 9 and 6A back to 8 or 9.
You could also take Chisago from 4A and put them in 5A, which would allow Cathedral/Sauk Rapids to go to 6A.
All of this moving would keep sections between the current 9 and 12 teams they have.

Your proposals were spot on with realignment in my opinion UNTIL the bolded portion. What logic are you using where you would take Sartell/Apollo out of 6A to go to 5A but then remove SCC and Sauk Rapids to then replace them in 6A? Sartell/Apollo are further away from 5A then the current Granite City area teams to begin with. Here is what that proposal would look like without the last comments...and should look like....(new teams in BOLD)

I believe that was a typo on my part.
Either that, or I was saying without the things listed above Chisago could move to 5A, then the two St Cloud area 5A teams could be in 6A with the other two St Cloud area teams.
Ultimately, my main point is that it's silly for the 4 St Cloud area and 4 Duluth area teams to not be in the same section.

There are other minor changes that could be made, but if it was truly about location, they would be.

[shins]

........ 2 sections always have the potential of really embarrassing class A (sections 3 and 6).

........ and we can make sure little falls has adequate competition in the section year in and year out otherwise this is a historically weak section at state other than hanowskis senior year..

I do agree that it makes sense to have SCC and SRR in section 6 (and even more sense to have the privates in a class that would realistically show the size of population they pull from), to rag on LF for being embarrassing at state would show a little bias.
2012 - (2-1) wins over DM and Roch. L -- loss to #1 STA
2009 - (2-1) wins over Virg and SCC -- loss to eventual champ Breck
2008 - (2-1) wins over Blake and Mank W - Loss to #1 STA
2007 - (0-2) losses to #1 Hermantown and Albert Lea
2006 and 2005 were both (1-2) trips

Are they state championship material most years? NO
Are many small school public teams in class A? NO
Have they put on an embarrassing display at state? Absolutely not

They had back to back years where they drew the #1 seed and were tied or ahead in the 3rd before losing. Last year they were beaten down by STA, but they beat two other privates to win the consolation championship.

Section 6 is typically the bottom 2 or 3 sections as far as depth of competition, but don't rewrite history

[Celihockey88]

Little Falls beat SCC IN THE 2010-2011 year that would have been the junior year for the little Hanowski. I agree that SCC is better than LF this year but SCC is a private school and should move up.

[HShockeywatcher]

I do agree that it makes sense to have SCC and SRR in section 6 (and even more sense to have the privates in a class that would realistically show the size of population they pull from), to rag on LF for being embarrassing at state would show a little bias.

Are they state championship material most years? NO
Are many small school public teams in class A? NO
Have they put on an embarrassing display at state? Absolutely not

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

[elliott70]

I do agree that it makes sense to have SCC and SRR in section 6 (and even more sense to have the privates in a class that would realistically show the size of population they pull from), to rag on LF for being embarrassing at state would show a little bias.

Are they state championship material most years? NO
Are many small school public teams in class A? NO
Have they put on an embarrassing display at state? Absolutely not

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

This is asinine.

[shins]

I do agree that it makes sense to have SCC and SRR in section 6 (and even more sense to have the privates in a class that would realistically show the size of population they pull from), to rag on LF for being embarrassing at state would show a little bias.

Are they state championship material most years? NO
Are many small school public teams in class A? NO
Have they put on an embarrassing display at state? Absolutely not

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

That was poorly written by me, what I meant was "are many small, public A schools state championship material". The reality is that many of the smaller communities can field strong teams that can compete at the tournament, but the depth of the private schools is too much in most cases. I think STA and Breck have won 7 of the last 9 championships.

[elliott70]

I do agree that it makes sense to have SCC and SRR in section 6 (and even more sense to have the privates in a class that would realistically show the size of population they pull from), to rag on LF for being embarrassing at state would show a little bias.

Are they state championship material most years? NO
Are many small school public teams in class A? NO
Have they put on an embarrassing display at state? Absolutely not

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

That was poorly written by me, what I meant was "are many small, public A schools state championship material". The reality is that many of the smaller communities can field strong teams that can compete at the tournament, but the depth of the private schools is too much in most cases. I think STA and Breck have won 7 of the last 9 championships.

I knew what you meant.
And it is quite right.

[HawkeyPower]

I do agree that it makes sense to have SCC and SRR in section 6 (and even more sense to have the privates in a class that would realistically show the size of population they pull from), to rag on LF for being embarrassing at state would show a little bias.

Are they state championship material most years? NO
Are many small school public teams in class A? NO
Have they put on an embarrassing display at state? Absolutely not

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

This is asinine.

[HShockeywatcher]

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

This is asinine.

What part of it?
To the best of my knowledge, there were definite advantages private schools had before, but those are theoretically gone. Unless you believe private schools "are better" what is the difference?
Should public schools not be attractive to students?

That was poorly written by me, what I meant was "are many small, public A schools state championship material". The reality is that many of the smaller communities can field strong teams that can compete at the tournament, but the depth of the private schools is too much in most cases. I think STA and Breck have won 7 of the last 9 championships.

You are right. Since 2000, only two public schools have won a title.
Part of this is because small teams opt up. It's an interesting situation.

[rainier]

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

We'll see how long HSHW can hold off without arguing...oh wait, it only took one response for him to start arguing.

[PuckRanger]

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

This is asinine.

AMEN!

[HShockeywatcher]

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

We'll see how long HSHW can hold off without arguing...oh wait, it only took one response for him to start arguing.

I'm not arguing with anyone and I'm not going to.
I gave my opinion and I'm asking someone else about theirs. I have my opinion and that likely won't change anytime soon, but I would like to be more informed of others.

Similar to my rankings; multiple people each week make broad statements about them with no explanation. So I'm asking for an explanation as I do every week with opinions on teams and rarely get them.

[Mailman]

I do agree that it makes sense to have SCC and SRR in section 6 (and even more sense to have the privates in a class that would realistically show the size of population they pull from), to rag on LF for being embarrassing at state would show a little bias.

Are they state championship material most years? NO
Are many small school public teams in class A? NO
Have they put on an embarrassing display at state? Absolutely not

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

That is the most uninformed post I've seen on this board, pertaining to public schools.

You obviously have spent very, very little time out of the metro area.

The *vast* majority of public schools throughout the state don't have anything close to the pool to "pull from", nor is there much they can do about it.


Believe it or not, Minnesota is composed of areas besides the TC and Duluth metro areas.

The spin you private schoolers put on to justify things is amazing.

[rainier]

I do agree that it makes sense to have SCC and SRR in section 6 (and even more sense to have the privates in a class that would realistically show the size of population they pull from), to rag on LF for being embarrassing at state would show a little bias.

Are they state championship material most years? NO
Are many small school public teams in class A? NO
Have they put on an embarrassing display at state? Absolutely not

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

That is the most uninformed post I've seen on this board, pertaining to public schools.

You obviously have spent very, very little time out of the metro area.

The *vast* majority of public schools throughout the state don't have anything close to the pool to "pull from", nor is there much they can do about it.


Believe it or not, Minnesota is composed of areas besides the TC and Duluth metro areas.

The spin you private schoolers put on to justify things is amazing.

HSHW won't argue with you about this, he said so earlier. He just wants SOMEONE to offer an explanation as to why parts of his rankings are beyond ridiculous.

Too bad he already said he wouldn't argue about this, I'm sure he has plenty to say, even if it makes no sense and has zero consistency logically.

Yeah, small schools need to attract better players. Look at International Falls, they should be attracting more players from...um...um...Canada? Oh, that's right, there are no other cities anywhere near I-Falls.

And you know kids from Virginia can't wait to transfer to Hibbing, oh wait, kids from Virginia hate Hibbing. Same with kids from Hibbing going to Grand Rapids, Adam Johnson's mom lives in Rapids, yet he decided to not transfer to a team that would give him a shot at a state AA title. You know why? Because kids from Hibbing hate Rapids. The Anders Lee, mercenary mentality in small communities is 1/1,000,000 of what it is in the metro.

Who do kids from STA hate? No one, because they all come from surrounding suburbs. Well, they probably hate their butler when he doesn't shine their "medals" brightly enough.

[Mailman]

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

That is the most uninformed post I've seen on this board, pertaining to public schools.

You obviously have spent very, very little time out of the metro area.

The *vast* majority of public schools throughout the state don't have anything close to the pool to "pull from", nor is there much they can do about it.


Believe it or not, Minnesota is composed of areas besides the TC and Duluth metro areas.

The spin you private schoolers put on to justify things is amazing.

HSHW won't argue with you about this, he said so earlier. He just wants SOMEONE to offer an explanation as to why parts of his rankings are beyond ridiculous.

Too bad he already said he wouldn't argue about this, I'm sure he has plenty to say, even if it makes no sense and has zero consistency logically.

That's alright; I have no intention of arguing about it either.

Good for the goose, etc.

Regarding the rankings, I don't worry about those; it's just a guy's opinion on a forum, not worth getting upset about.

(added some)

[PuckRanger]

I'm not going to argue about it, but with the new transfer rules and open enrollment, private schools and public schools should have little difference as far as the pool "they pull from."
If public schools aren't doing everything they can to be attractive to students, they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Pretty sure that 4 of the 6 public school teams ranked this week would qualify as "small public school teams"...

That is the most uninformed post I've seen on this board, pertaining to public schools.

You obviously have spent very, very little time out of the metro area.

The *vast* majority of public schools throughout the state don't have anything close to the pool to "pull from", nor is there much they can do about it.


Believe it or not, Minnesota is composed of areas besides the TC and Duluth metro areas.

The spin you private schoolers put on to justify things is amazing.

HSHW won't argue with you about this, he said so earlier. He just wants SOMEONE to offer an explanation as to why parts of his rankings are beyond ridiculous.

Too bad he already said he wouldn't argue about this, I'm sure he has plenty to say, even if it makes no sense and has zero consistency logically.

Yeah, small schools need to attract better players. Look at International Falls, they should be attracting more players from...um...um...Canada? Oh, that's right, there are no other cities anywhere near I-Falls.

And you know kids from Virginia can't wait to transfer to Hibbing, oh wait, kids from Virginia hate Hibbing. Same with kids from Hibbing going to Grand Rapids, Adam Johnson's mom lives in Rapids, yet he decided to not transfer to a team that would give him a shot at a state AA title. You know why? Because kids from Hibbing hate Rapids. The Anders Lee, mercenary mentality in small communities is 1/1,000,000 of what it is in the metro.

Who do kids from STA hate? No one, because they all come from surrounding suburbs. Well, they probably hate their butler when he doesn't shine their "medals" brightly enough.

Good stuff, good stuff! It makes too much sense, however. So prepare for the even more dizzying and incomprehensible circular illogical response now that you brought his butler into it!

[rainier]

That is the most uninformed post I've seen on this board, pertaining to public schools.

You obviously have spent very, very little time out of the metro area.

The *vast* majority of public schools throughout the state don't have anything close to the pool to "pull from", nor is there much they can do about it.


Believe it or not, Minnesota is composed of areas besides the TC and Duluth metro areas.

The spin you private schoolers put on to justify things is amazing.

HSHW won't argue with you about this, he said so earlier. He just wants SOMEONE to offer an explanation as to why parts of his rankings are beyond ridiculous.

Too bad he already said he wouldn't argue about this, I'm sure he has plenty to say, even if it makes no sense and has zero consistency logically.

Yeah, small schools need to attract better players. Look at International Falls, they should be attracting more players from...um...um...Canada? Oh, that's right, there are no other cities anywhere near I-Falls.

And you know kids from Virginia can't wait to transfer to Hibbing, oh wait, kids from Virginia hate Hibbing. Same with kids from Hibbing going to Grand Rapids, Adam Johnson's mom lives in Rapids, yet he decided to not transfer to a team that would give him a shot at a state AA title. You know why? Because kids from Hibbing hate Rapids. The Anders Lee, mercenary mentality in small communities is 1/1,000,000 of what it is in the metro.

Who do kids from STA hate? No one, because they all come from surrounding suburbs. Well, they probably hate their butler when he doesn't shine their "medals" brightly enough.

Good stuff, good stuff! It makes too much sense, however. So prepare for the even more dizzying and incomprehensible circular illogical response now that you brought his butler into it!

I remember in the late 80's/early 90's a kid from Hibbing (Fairchild) transferred to Rapids because the Indians were much better than Hibbing that season. I wasn't even in high school yet but I knew who he was because it was such an unheard of thing to do and every student (and most citizens) in Hibbing hated him. He was a pariah.

These sentiments are why HSHW's assertion that small schools need to do more to "attract" players is so absurd. You couldn't find a more "attractive" place on the Iron Range than Grand Rapids. It is a beautiful city with excellent school athletics, especially hockey. It wouldn't be too terribly hard to have kids from Hibbing and Virginia transfer there after an uncle, older sister, parent, etc. got an apartment there. (Something tells me there would be VERY affordable apartments available for the guardians of good hockey players.)

And given that Rapids is a top AA team already anyway, the potential transfers know they would have tons of exposure and success. The Rapids team of two years ago was as good as any in state, and if Johnson/DeCenzo (combined 150 points)left Hibbing and Hendrickson/Eddy (combined 140 points)left Virginia, it's hard to imagine that Rapids team not winning state. How much better would Rapids be this season with Adam Johnson playing next to Avery Peterson? Top 3 team for sure.

But this doesn't happen often because there is something that is much more attractive than the lure of guaranteed hockey success: loyalty to your school and friends, 70 years of ingrained tradition on who your athletic enemies are, and the fear of becoming a villain in your own hometown.

HSHW thinks the metro/community school comparison is apples to apples, but in reality it is apples to albino giraffes.

[PuckRanger]

I remember in the late 80's/early 90's a kid from Hibbing (Fairchild) transferred to Rapids because the Indians were much better than Hibbing that season. I wasn't even in high school yet but I knew who he was because it was such an unheard of thing to do and every student (and most citizens) in Hibbing hated him. He was a pariah.

These sentiments are why HSHW's assertion that small schools need to do more to "attract" players is so absurd. You couldn't find a more "attractive" place on the Iron Range than Grand Rapids. It is a beautiful city with excellent school athletics, especially hockey. It wouldn't be too terribly hard to have kids from Hibbing and Virginia transfer there after an uncle, older sister, parent, etc. got an apartment there. (Something tells me there would be VERY affordable apartments available for the guardians of good hockey players.)

And given that Rapids is a top AA team already anyway, the potential transfers know they would have tons of exposure and success. The Rapids team of two years ago was as good as any in state, and if Johnson/DeCenzo (combined 150 points)left Hibbing and Hendrickson/Eddy (combined 140 points)left Virginia, it's hard to imagine that Rapids team not winning state. How much better would Rapids be this season with Adam Johnson playing next to Avery Peterson? Top 3 team for sure.

But this doesn't happen often because there is something that is much more attractive than the lure of guaranteed hockey success: loyalty to your school and friends, 70 years of ingrained tradition on who your athletic enemies are, and the fear of becoming a villain in your own hometown.

HSHW thinks the metro/community school comparison is apples to apples, but in reality it is apples to albino giraffes.

I remember that Fairchild transfer quite well. He transfered to a Grand Rapids team that beat Virginia (who was ranked #2 in the one class state at that time) in the section finals in 1991. Not only was he hated in Hibbing, he was hated in Virginia and across much of the Iron Range hockey community. Most metro kids in this era will NEVER understand this kind of thing. Its just completely foreign to them. This is also why Duluth Marshall had trouble getting many local teams on their schedule for quite some time starting in the late 90's - and still has issues with a couple today.

I recall Pat Finnegan and Ted Suihkonen bolting from Virginia for Duluth East in the mid to late 90's. They are not allowed in the arena in Virginia to this day. The ironic part is that Suihkonen was on and played a big role (as a freshman) for the last Virginia team to beat Duluth East before he transferred. This was also the last team to beat Duluth East in a quarterfinal section game (1993).

There is nothing worse to a smaller hockey community/program than to develop a skilled player only to have that player bolt for what is perceived to be greener pastures.

[PuckRanger]

I'm not arguing with anyone and I'm not going to.
I gave my opinion and I'm asking someone else about theirs. I have my opinion and that likely won't change anytime soon, but I would like to be more informed of others.

Similar to my rankings; multiple people each week make broad statements about them with no explanation. So I'm asking for an explanation as I do every week with opinions on teams and rarely get them.

I say this knowing that I am putting this thread at risk of being locked up, but I honestly try to refrain from directly insulting you, HShockeywatcher, but it has become nearly impossible with the "asinine" (as Elliot well put it) things that you continue to spew out and then vigorously try to defend.

I (and others) give you opinions quite often, and they are NOT broad statements and I ALWAYS back it up with some data to lay out my case (as have others). All we ever get back is that we are wrong and you are right (usually in some twisted, round-about way) and/or that your just being picked on.

The truth is you choose to ignore what other people say when you are not in agreement (which seems to be most of the time) and then claim nobody is saying anything! Then you wonder why people are actually not saying anything anymore. If you're as smart as you think you are, you should know why that is by now.

BTW, when it comes to your rankings, had you ever had the thought that in your polling that most people just go on there and vote for their hometown team or against a team that they just dislike? Or just throw a vote in there to push your buttons? (FYI, I did not. I voted for Hermantown in this week's poll - whom, I, along with many others, feel is the actual #3 team right now - but you know that already because I told you why last week.) Judging by how much your valuing the results of those, I am guessing that thought has not entered your mind.

Some of us (I am one of them) have actually seen many of these teams play (in fact the only one I haven't seen that you have ranked this week is Totino-Grace) and are not just randomly blurting stuff out based on records, scores, and forum poll results.

[HShockeywatcher]

That is the most uninformed post I've seen on this board, pertaining to public schools.

You obviously have spent very, very little time out of the metro area.

The *vast* majority of public schools throughout the state don't have anything close to the pool to "pull from", nor is there much they can do about it.


Believe it or not, Minnesota is composed of areas besides the TC and Duluth metro areas.

The spin you private schoolers put on to justify things is amazing.

My point isn't that a TC school doesn't pull from a "bigger pool" than an outstate school. That would be silly.

My point is simply that any given school, public or private, wherever it is located, has the same rules to follow. Schools like Denfeld and Marshall or Cathedral and Apollo should, given the rules as they are now, be on a similarly level playing field.

I am not saying that a school in the metro doesn't pull from a bigger pool than those outstate. Since discussion about classes started years ago, because of the breakdown of size of hockey schools, I suggested the bottom 64 be in Class A, not the top 64 in AA. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would take out many of the current 5A and 4A football schools.

Anyway, that is my point. Not at all what you are trying to spin it as.

Similar to my rankings; multiple people each week make broad statements about them with no explanation. So I'm asking for an explanation as I do every week with opinions on teams and rarely get them.

I (and others) give you opinions quite often, and they are NOT broad statements and I ALWAYS back it up with some data to lay out my case (as have others). All we ever get back is that we are wrong and you are right (usually in some twisted, round-about way) and/or that your just being picked on.

The truth is you choose to ignore what other people say when you are not in agreement (which seems to be most of the time) and then claim nobody is saying anything! Then you wonder why people are actually not saying anything anymore. If you're as smart as you think you are, you should know why that is by now.

Some of us (I am one of them) have actually seen many of these teams play (in fact the only one I haven't seen that you have ranked this week is Totino-Grace) and are not just randomly blurting stuff out based on records, scores, and forum poll results.

I respect your opinion, I always have. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it, just like you don't have to agree with mine.
I'm still not seeing the evidence from their schedule, what I based my rankings on, that they are the #3 team in state.
They have beaten a team last week was said to not be a top 5 team pretty badly early in the season. They have lost and won against the #8 team. They have won by 1 goal to the #12 team and shut out a team Mahtomedi recently beat. When you throw on top of that the loss to Cathedral to start their current win streak, I don't see "tied for second with Breck" as someone pointed out. Maybe I'm missing something...

Yes, last week many people said they thought Hermantown should be ahead of Thief River Falls. The only comment as to why was that Hermantown won the head to head match up by a lot. I listened. Hermantown is now ahead of Thief River Falls and I am put down again.

I don't understand the logic that I use the 4th game of the season to put team A above team B, but I then ignore team C's win over team A? Team D also had a win over team C the 4th game of the season, so it all fell into place quite easily I thought.
I was doing something terrible wrong, so I listened and did exactly what was suggested, then I'm doing something terribly wrong again.

I believe you have many teams play. Many of the people I get comments from also claim to have seen many of the teams play. I have always ranked mostly based on the results of games. Recently I have listened to what people are saying a little more. Guess I should stop that?

[pekyman]

That is the most uninformed post I've seen on this board, pertaining to public schools.

You obviously have spent very, very little time out of the metro area.

The *vast* majority of public schools throughout the state don't have anything close to the pool to "pull from", nor is there much they can do about it.


Believe it or not, Minnesota is composed of areas besides the TC and Duluth metro areas.

The spin you private schoolers put on to justify things is amazing.

My point isn't that a TC school doesn't pull from a "bigger pool" than an outstate school. That would be silly.

My point is simply that any given school, public or private, wherever it is located, has the same rules to follow. Schools like Denfeld and Marshall or Cathedral and Apollo should, given the rules as they are now, be on a similarly level playing field.

I am not saying that a school in the metro doesn't pull from a bigger pool than those outstate. Since discussion about classes started years ago, because of the breakdown of size of hockey schools, I suggested the bottom 64 be in Class A, not the top 64 in AA. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would take out many of the current 5A and 4A football schools.

Anyway, that is my point. Not at all what you are trying to spin it as.

Similar to my rankings; multiple people each week make broad statements about them with no explanation. So I'm asking for an explanation as I do every week with opinions on teams and rarely get them.

I (and others) give you opinions quite often, and they are NOT broad statements and I ALWAYS back it up with some data to lay out my case (as have others). All we ever get back is that we are wrong and you are right (usually in some twisted, round-about way) and/or that your just being picked on.

The truth is you choose to ignore what other people say when you are not in agreement (which seems to be most of the time) and then claim nobody is saying anything! Then you wonder why people are actually not saying anything anymore. If you're as smart as you think you are, you should know why that is by now.

Some of us (I am one of them) have actually seen many of these teams play (in fact the only one I haven't seen that you have ranked this week is Totino-Grace) and are not just randomly blurting stuff out based on records, scores, and forum poll results.

I respect your opinion, I always have. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it, just like you don't have to agree with mine.
I'm still not seeing the evidence from their schedule, what I based my rankings on, that they are the #3 team in state.
They have beaten a team last week was said to not be a top 5 team pretty badly early in the season. They have lost and won against the #8 team. They have won by 1 goal to the #12 team and shut out a team Mahtomedi recently beat. When you throw on top of that the loss to Cathedral to start their current win streak, I don't see "tied for second with Breck" as someone pointed out. Maybe I'm missing something...

Yes, last week many people said they thought Hermantown should be ahead of Thief River Falls. The only comment as to why was that Hermantown won the head to head match up by a lot. I listened. Hermantown is now ahead of Thief River Falls and I am put down again.

I don't understand the logic that I use the 4th game of the season to put team A above team B, but I then ignore team C's win over team A? Team D also had a win over team C the 4th game of the season, so it all fell into place quite easily I thought.
I was doing something terrible wrong, so I listened and did exactly what was suggested, then I'm doing something terribly wrong again.

I believe you have many teams play. Many of the people I get comments from also claim to have seen many of the teams play. I have always ranked mostly based on the results of games. Recently I have listened to what people are saying a little more. Guess I should stop that?

I think I just figured out why you want to have “early games to carry more weight”
It makes sense to me that games early in the season should carry more weight, really it does.
Earlier games, when teams are developing lines, testing goalies, skaters, etc are clearly a better indicator of the team that will show up in section playoffs.

STAA vs TARTAN
Jan - 5 7 - 2 Win
Feb - 7 4 - 4 Tie

STAA vs HILL
Dec - 15 2-1 Win
Jan - 24 1 - 3 Loss

HERM vs Denfeld
Dec - 20 5 - 4 Loss
Feb - 5 7 - 1 Win

HERM vs. Superior
Jan - 15 4 - 5 Loss
Feb - 7 5 - 2 Win
By the way, if Superior was in MN it would be a AA school.


Hermantown has avenged it 2 losses to Denfeld and Superior earlier in the season.
In neither game was Hermantown outplayed as goaltending was the issue.
There are only 2 teams on Herm’s schedule that they have not beaten.
Herm has 1 Tie.
See Below:

5-4 OT loss to AA-Grand Rapids.
Shots in the game were 29-28 Rapids.
Herm received 17 penalty minutes to GR 2 minutes.
Hermantown played almost the entire 2nd period short.

5-4 OT away loss to SCC.
Hermantown outshot SCC
Shots were 44-30
OT Loss, SCC was on the PP.

5-5 Tie with AA-#7 Eagan
Championship game, X-Mass tourney.
Shots were 49-38 Hermantown.
Shots in OT - Even at 6 each.

All three of these games could have easily gone the other way at the time they were played.
Hermantown has never been outplayed in any game.
Since then Herm has solidified its goaltending and put a greater focus on team defense as written about on the Hub.
An analysis of comparable games between Herm, SCC, TRF, Breck, Lourdes, Denfeld, etc. shows that
Hermantown has won by a much higher margin and had significantly more shots on goal than any of the other teams in almost every game.

Here is a comparison of common games between HERM, TRF AND BRECK.
HT & BR vs. THIEF RIVER
HT: 7 - 1 : 54-25 : +29
BR: 3 - 2 : 36-15 OT + 21
HT beats TRF by 6 goals, TRF biggest loss of the season.
Breck wins 3-2 in OT.

vs. BEMIDJI
HT: 8 - 1 : 42-12 : +30
BR: 7 - 1 : 36-16: +20
TR: 2 - 1 : 29-19 : +10
HT beats Bemidji by 7, Bemidji’s biggest loss of the season.
TRF 2-1.

vs. MARSHALL
HT: 4 - 3 : 42 - 21 : +21
TR: 4 - 2 : 36 - 26 : +10
BR: 2 - 1 ; 33 - 35 : -2
ST: 4 - 1
HT more SOG that both, Breck and Herm win by 1 goal.
Marshall has more SOG than Breck.

vs. TOTINO (ranked #3 by you at that time)
HT: 4 - 0 : 38-20 : +18
BR: 5 - 3 : 40-23 : +17
TR: 2 - 4 : 38-24 : -14 LOSS
HT wins by 4 goals and shutouts Totino.
No other team this year has done this, not even the mighty STAA.
TRF 4-2 Loss and outshot by 14.

vs. DENFELD (latest Game, ranked #4 by you at that time)
HT: 7 - 1 : 54 - 15 : +39:
TR: 5 - 2 : 39 - 24 : +15
HT wins by 5 and puts 15 more SOG that TRF.

vs. I-FALLS (not even ranked!)
HT: 8 - 1 : 63-18 : +45
TR: 2 - 3 : 27-20 : -7 LOSS
HT hands I-Falls its biggest loss of the season, out shooting them by 45.
TRF outshot by 7 and Loses!!!

TRF just lost to BRECK 2-1 in OT, and had its second loss to ROSEAU 2-1 in its first game
and 4-2 just the other day.
Roseau lost to Bemidji 2-4 on 1-31 and GR 2-5.
HT beat Bemidji 8-1 and lost to #9 GR AA in OT 5-4.

Hermantown has a tie with #7 AA Eagan and a 4-1 victory over #16 AA Cloquet.
Cloquet just played #3 AA EAST to a 3-2 loss.
Herm has:
-not been outshot or outplayed in any game
-outscored its opponents 155-49
-outshot its opponents 1023-446
-one of the best power plays in the state at 39.5%
-one of the best penalty kills at 82.5%
-solid goaltending in Smith with a save ratio of 92%

I could go on but what is the point.
There is a reason that every legitimate poll has Herm back at #3.
Organizations/people that compile the ranking objectively analyze every teams entire season’s body of work.
With 95% of the season over, in my opinion, Hermantown takes #3 and is close to #2.
I don’t see another team below STAA and Breck that can match what Hermantown has done.
The polls agree.