Shortening Bench at 12A Level

[RealisticRonnie]

STOP!

[Green is gold]

Lucky Dad... Quit drinking at lunch! Are you saying that shorting a LONG bench in crunch time is going to do away with hockey as we know it? CHECK YOURSELF! I've always liked your input... NO LONGER. RONNIE IS RIGHT !
NEVER....NEVER... really? If you are a dad.. you would know! NEVER say NEVER. And why would we expect a kid who NEVER liked hockey to "get better"? This is why Ronnie and I could laugh at you and enjoy a summit! Why on earth do we want/expect ANYONE who doesn't like hockey to be a fan. I think I know what you wanted to say bet try again... Lacrosse is a GREAT sport.. so is Hockey. Shakopee shorted the bench 5 players for the whole game.. Edina did not.
PS I hate Ping Pong...so I'm gonna go practice! Really EP?

[luckyEPDad]

Lucky Dad... Quit drinking at lunch! Are you saying that shorting a LONG bench in crunch time is going to do away with hockey as we know it? CHECK YOURSELF! I've always liked your input... NO LONGER. RONNIE IS RIGHT !
NEVER....NEVER... really? If you are a dad.. you would know! NEVER say NEVER. And why would we expect a kid who NEVER liked hockey to "get better"? This is why Ronnie and I could laugh at you and enjoy a summit! Why on earth do we want/expect ANYONE who doesn't like hockey to be a fan. I think I know what you wanted to say bet try again... Lacrosse is a GREAT sport.. so is Hockey. Shakopee shorted the bench 5 players for the whole game.. Edina did not.
PS I hate Ping Pong...so I'm gonna go practice! Really EP?

No, but I think pandering to a few special players over and over hurts associations in the long run. Minnetonka is providing proof that a fair play time policy works. Their policy sends the message that you win as a team and you lose as a team. Players growing up in that framework learn to rely on each other and push each other to be better.

By the numbers Minnesota never has been the State of Hockey. Participation in many associations are declining. I'm sure the expense is a big factor, but I also see many places where hockey is almost hostile to those outside the hockey community. Getting my daughter started in EP was somewhat like getting into a speakeasy during prohibition. I was lucky to know a guy who knew a guy. Hockey needs to hold on to as many kids as they have and add wherever they can or it is possible that it may not remain a viable sport. I remember watching hockey games on network television and I remember having to have cable to see a hockey game. I remember Minnesota losing their professional hockey franchise in part because of fan interest.

As far as Edina goes, I think it is a great association. I wish EP was as active about getting more girls playing hockey.

[jg2112]

By the numbers Minnesota never has been the State of Hockey. Participation in many associations are declining. I'm sure the expense is a big factor, but I also see many places where hockey is almost hostile to those outside the hockey community. Getting my daughter started in EP was somewhat like getting into a speakeasy during prohibition. I was lucky to know a guy who knew a guy. Hockey needs to hold on to as many kids as they have and add wherever they can or it is possible that it may not remain a viable sport. I remember watching hockey games on network television and I remember having to have cable to see a hockey game. I remember Minnesota losing their professional hockey franchise in part because of fan interest.

As far as Edina goes, I think it is a great association. I wish EP was as active about getting more girls playing hockey.

Most of this comment is silly. Participation in some associations is declining, sure. In others it is booming.

I don't know what you did wrong re: registering your daughter. I live in Roseville and all I had to do was a) show up at registration and b) pay them in American dollars and they happily accepted my daughter's registration.

As far as losing the hockey team, come on. You know it wasn't because of fan interest. You're just twisting many facts to prove incorrect points.

[luckyEPDad]

As far as losing the hockey team, come on. You know it wasn't because of fan interest. You're just twisting many facts to prove incorrect points.

You don't think the team left because of Norm, do you? Minnesota lost the North Stars in the 80's due to poor attendence (often due to lousy teams on the ice). When the Gunds cashed out the writing was on the wall. Attendence was peaky but often (usually) poor through the 90's and it was only a matter of time before Norm realized owning a professional hockey team in Minnesota was a bad idea. If you think the team left for a reason other than money you are lying to yourself.

[jg2112]

As far as losing the hockey team, come on. You know it wasn't because of fan interest. You're just twisting many facts to prove incorrect points.

You don't think the team left because of Norm, do you? Minnesota lost the North Stars in the 80's due to poor attendence (often due to lousy teams on the ice). When the Gunds cashed out the writing was on the wall. Attendence was peaky but often (usually) poor through the 90's and it was only a matter of time before Norm realized owning a professional hockey team in Minnesota was a bad idea. If you think the team left for a reason other than money you are lying to yourself.

Actually, I thought the North Stars left because they couldn't figure out how to register their kids with Eden Prairie youth hockey.

[luckyEPDad]

As far as losing the hockey team, come on. You know it wasn't because of fan interest. You're just twisting many facts to prove incorrect points.

You don't think the team left because of Norm, do you? Minnesota lost the North Stars in the 80's due to poor attendence (often due to lousy teams on the ice). When the Gunds cashed out the writing was on the wall. Attendence was peaky but often (usually) poor through the 90's and it was only a matter of time before Norm realized owning a professional hockey team in Minnesota was a bad idea. If you think the team left for a reason other than money you are lying to yourself.

Actually, I thought the North Stars left because they couldn't figure out how to register their kids with Eden Prairie youth hockey.

Butterfly's flapping their wings...

[D6 Girls Fan]

I don't think shortening the bench during the playoffs scars anyone.

If anything, it might toughen up a few kids. How many kids make a HS team out of any class? 8? I bet they are the same ones who played in the important youth games. Most girls probably quit after 14s when it becomes obvious they won't make their HS team. What de-motivates girls? Being excluded from AAA teams when those girls were supposed to be their friends... (Our first dropped when this happened to her)

It's less a coach's fault and more a parent's. Pushing too hard, failing to network properly with "the Powers that be" to get a shot at good teams, there are lots of reasons why girls drop.

Minnetonka has done a great job at the High School level, but I put that on the HS coach. He's just better than most coaches. He's been able to keep more of his talent than Wayzata, Edina, and EP. He has better ties with his youth association. I don't think it's because Tonka rolls its lines at U12.

[InigoMontoya]

Minnesota lost the North Stars in the 80's due to poor attendence (often due to lousy teams on the ice).

In order for this to tie togehter, you must be saying the North Stars were lousy because Edina 12U shortened their bench in the state championship game? I'm a big believer in "if you pick 'em, play 'em", but this is a stretch.

[peterthepuck]

Development! Development! Development! Do you people who preach development really have any idea what you are talking about? Seriously? Development is about teaching kids the game from skating, stickhandling, puck protection, ice vision, individual battles, passing and teamwork, time and space, etc....It is also about putting kids in situations that they can succeed!

Peterthepuck, Hansonbrother and all the others that cry about shortening the bench are jealous and most likely have learned how to be happy with mediocrity. What's wrong with the motto: "If you don't like it do something about it!"???? Hansonbrother, my guess is your kid could never play on the team SS729 is referring to...they play to win!

If you want development, work hard to get better. Learn how to skate better, shoot better, stickhandle better...the coaches & teachers develop players and from the looks of it Edina seems to have a lot of good players. Where were they developed???? Get off the development bandwagon because the word is a joke. Development is about getting better and sitting out for three or four shifts here and there through a season is NOT going to hinder that one bit!

Ronnie you know the truth, this was not bench shortening but playing one certain player in every situation and scored the majority of their goals. remove this player and this team does not advance. I guess you call this player development? stop with all the BS about play harder train harder blah blah blah. you were a very good team this year, remove two players and your a average team. all developed right? congrats your doing a great job developing your girls. can't wait to see the banner hung green and gold

[RealisticRonnie]

Peterthepuck, what a great observation! You actually realized that Edina had a few outstanding players. You are a hockey genius! Your statement that if such and such player was removed that Edina doesn't advance is BS. Would the Bulls of won 6 titles without Jordan? Would the Kings have won the Cup without Quick? If you don't think every team that made it to State has players like that then you truly are delusional. Do you think Shakopee makes it to the finals without #'s 11 and 12??? WBL without #9 and their goalie? How bout Edina last year without whatever #'s were their 'STARS"?

I'm sure you realize how ludicrous your statement is by now so I'll stop beating the dead horse. Besides, we'll never know if Edina would of advanced without their stars because they don't play sports with your what if scenarios!

Please do me a favor and congratulate the Edina 12A State Champs and quit making excuses for why they won. They deserve better!

Only time will tell if the girls can win at the high school level, but I can promise you the Edina girls hockey program is as strong as ever and the girls are "developing" just fine. Thank you!

[peterthepuck]

Peterthepuck, what a great observation! You actually realized that Edina had a few outstanding players. You are a hockey genius! Your statement that if such and such player was removed that Edina doesn't advance is BS. Would the Bulls of won 6 titles without Jordan? Would the Kings have won the Cup without Quick? If you don't think every team that made it to State has players like that then you truly are delusional. Do you think Shakopee makes it to the finals without #'s 11 and 12??? WBL without #9 and their goalie? How bout Edina last year without whatever #'s were their 'STARS"?

I'm sure you realize how ludicrous your statement is by now so I'll stop beating the dead horse. Besides, we'll never know if Edina would of advanced without their stars because they don't play sports with your what if scenarios!

Please do me a favor and congratulate the Edina 12A State Champs and quit making excuses for why they won. They deserve better!

Only time will tell if the girls can win at the high school level, but I can promise you the Edina girls hockey program is as strong as ever and the girls are "developing" just fine. Thank you!

Weak rebuttal Ronnie, sure I will congratulate the jersey tugging, please look at us and how great we are team. if it makes you feel better congrats to Eagan, WBL and Shakopee.

[Green is gold]

Green IS Gold... I beg your pardon.

[Hansonbrother]

Development! Development! Development! Do you people who preach development really have any idea what you are talking about? Seriously? Development is about teaching kids the game from skating, stickhandling, puck protection, ice vision, individual battles, passing and teamwork, time and space, etc....It is also about putting kids in situations that they can succeed!

Peterthepuck, Hansonbrother and all the others that cry about shortening the bench are jealous and most likely have learned how to be happy with mediocrity. What's wrong with the motto: "If you don't like it do something about it!"???? Hansonbrother, my guess is your kid could never play on the team SS729 is referring to...they play to win!

If you want development, work hard to get better. Learn how to skate better, shoot better, stickhandle better...the coaches & teachers develop players and from the looks of it Edina seems to have a lot of good players. Where were they developed???? Get off the development bandwagon because the word is a joke. Development is about getting better and sitting out for three or four shifts here and there through a season is NOT going to hinder that one bit!

Realistic Ronnie- what color is the sky in your world? My daughter does play at that high level, and I myself have made 3 trips to the dance as a high school coach and one as a Bantam coach...and I can assure you, it wasn't about shortening the bench in youth hockey. I know what it takes to win...a full team with everyone understanding their role. Developing everyone so you don't run your best players out of gas. Like I said earlier, I'm sure glad you don't coach my daughters team, she'd never get a chance to come off the ice and learn what its like to play rested. Oh, and by the way, I have loved nothing more than kickin' Edina's butt in the state tournaments!! Twice!

[InigoMontoya]

Development! Development! Development! Do you people who preach development really have any idea what you are talking about? Seriously? Development is about teaching kids the game from skating, stickhandling, puck protection, ice vision, individual battles, passing and teamwork, time and space, etc....It is also about putting kids in situations that they can succeed!

Peterthepuck, Hansonbrother and all the others that cry about shortening the bench are jealous and most likely have learned how to be happy with mediocrity. What's wrong with the motto: "If you don't like it do something about it!"???? Hansonbrother, my guess is your kid could never play on the team SS729 is referring to...they play to win!

If you want development, work hard to get better. Learn how to skate better, shoot better, stickhandle better...the coaches & teachers develop players and from the looks of it Edina seems to have a lot of good players. Where were they developed???? Get off the development bandwagon because the word is a joke. Development is about getting better and sitting out for three or four shifts here and there through a season is NOT going to hinder that one bit!

Realistic Ronnie- what color is the sky in your world? My daughter does play at that high level, and I myself have made 3 trips to the dance as a high school coach and one as a Bantam coach...and I can assure you, it wasn't about shortening the bench in youth hockey. I know what it takes to win...a full team with everyone understanding their role. Developing everyone so you don't run your best players out of gas. Like I said earlier, I'm sure glad you don't coach my daughters team, she'd never get a chance to come off the ice and learn what its like to play rested. Oh, and by the way, I have loved nothing more than kickin' Edina's butt in the state tournaments!! Twice!

A bantam team rolled its lines all season and through the state tourney? I'm skeptical.

[MN-GH]

Topshelfblue, hockeychopper, hansonbro, and others - great perspectives on rolling 'em. Having been around the game long enough, shorting at the U12/U10 levels doesn't get much street credit in the hockey world. I get that hockey is competitive, but I don't get why coaches feel the need to shorten at U12/U10....if a youth coach has done his job with players 1-15 why would they need to shorten? Either way, it can produce an anxiety-ridden environment that's counterproductive.

Too many U12 teams were shorting all year and its starting to feel like its more about not losing than it is about winning. Shortening eventually limits individual & team development, and eventually leads to a lack of depth down the road. U12 is one of the more critical years in developing players, and I am definitely not convinced that its serves as a motivator to an 11/12 yr old. Leave player utilization up to the HS & college levels when the stakes are truly higher and players get it.

Play/coach to develop your depth now becasue the game of girls hockey keeps getting tighter and tighter at the HS level. No matter how good a team's top 5-6 players are today in U12-A, that simply will not be enough to win later in HS.

Shorting has a lot of drawbacks and I would be hard pressed to see any community HS coach support it. Parent's don't like it, players don't like it, it kills team chemistry (for years), chips away at loyalty to a team/program, and in the long term does nothing to help build girls hockey. It's a great game today, keep it that way.

[InigoMontoya]

Why are the stakes higher at high school? Why is shortening a 15 year old girl OK, but shortening a 13 year old girl, by the time the state tourney rolls around, is a heinous crime? If every coach has 'done his job' you should have about 60 high school girls that you can simply roll all season. Ask a state caliber team of 15 year old girls to secret ballot which of them should be picked for the shootout to win a tournament, and I think you'd get about 5 names. We should start a post on the boys side to see the responses to shortening the bench in the Peewee AA tourney. Interesting subject - has turned out some 'first time' posters.

[peterthepuck]

If every coach has 'done his job' you should have about 60 high school girls that you can simply roll all season.

Where is Coach Ronnie? I can't wait to hear your response to this. Maybe it goes something like this Just Win Baby, this is the NFL, oops I mean GIRLS YOUTH HOCKEY

I do congratulate Coach Ronnie on developing 2 of his 15 girls last year, Great Job, keep up the tremendous feeder program to the no-win HS girls state champions

As I said before Ronnie; Case Closed

[Hansonbrother]

Development! Development! Development! Do you people who preach development really have any idea what you are talking about? Seriously? Development is about teaching kids the game from skating, stickhandling, puck protection, ice vision, individual battles, passing and teamwork, time and space, etc....It is also about putting kids in situations that they can succeed!

Peterthepuck, Hansonbrother and all the others that cry about shortening the bench are jealous and most likely have learned how to be happy with mediocrity. What's wrong with the motto: "If you don't like it do something about it!"???? Hansonbrother, my guess is your kid could never play on the team SS729 is referring to...they play to win!

If you want development, work hard to get better. Learn how to skate better, shoot better, stickhandle better...the coaches & teachers develop players and from the looks of it Edina seems to have a lot of good players. Where were they developed???? Get off the development bandwagon because the word is a joke. Development is about getting better and sitting out for three or four shifts here and there through a season is NOT going to hinder that one bit!

Realistic Ronnie- what color is the sky in your world? My daughter does play at that high level, and I myself have made 3 trips to the dance as a high school coach and one as a Bantam coach...and I can assure you, it wasn't about shortening the bench in youth hockey. I know what it takes to win...a full team with everyone understanding their role. Developing everyone so you don't run your best players out of gas. Like I said earlier, I'm sure glad you don't coach my daughters team, she'd never get a chance to come off the ice and learn what its like to play rested. Oh, and by the way, I have loved nothing more than kickin' Edina's butt in the state tournaments!! Twice!

A bantam team rolled its lines all season and through the state tourney? I'm skeptical.

What can I say...it was a really nice team and we only took 4th....but we all had fun.

[RealisticRonnie]

Peter, peter, peter, so much anger and so little to show for it. I'm NOT sure why you are so bitter, but if you spent a little more time "developing" hockey talent you might have more to show for it and less to be angry about. What do you mean when you say "congrats on developing 2 of 15 girls this year"? Do you say this because there are 2 girls that stand out above the crowd on the Edina team? FYI, every team has a pecking order of talent...figure it out. The truth is every girl on the Edina 12A team makes any 12A team in the State...period! You can't say that for the other teams rosters...the Edina girls are GOOD! Give ALL those girls credit because they ALL worked too hard and they deserve it!

As far as your BS argument about "NO win HS team"...time will only tell on how this group of girls will do at the HS level. I'm pretty confident they will be vying for State Championships in the near future. But, remember winning State isn't all about talent. There are a lot of factors that go into a Championship like injuries, bad luck, good luck, etc... besides, according to Hanson brother taking 4th is a lot of fun too!

Lastly, in reference to your comment on "JUST WIN BABY", I'd prefer to use a quote from another football legend:
"SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, AND I'LL SHOW YOU A LOSER!"
At least you're not a "LOSER"...you're just a poor loser!

[demongoed]

[quote="RealisticRonnie"]As far as your BS argument about "NO win HS team"...time will only tell on how this group of girls will do at the HS level.

Well, yes only time will tell. I don't think the "no win" comment is BS when the fact is that Edina has never, ever won a state title. And I guess you can look at the past to get a pretty good idea of what might happen in the future. It's obvious that Edina has had a great deal of success at the youth level in the state tournament for years, more than any other association, because of talent but not in small part due to the coaching philosophy of consistently shortening the bench not only during the district, region and state tournaments but also during the league season, thereby securing favorable standings in the district tournament.

Where does this get them in the marathon of development? Underperformance at the high school level. While not the only reason, to pretend that the two are not related is ridiculous. The "other factors" arguement just doesn't explain why there is no banner hanging in Braemar to date. The longer-term results simply do not show shortening the bench to be this great development tool that Ronnie says it is. It is, however, a very successful short-term win strategy, which must be OK with the powers that be in the high school program since it's been going on for many years.

[sinbin]

One might compare Edina to Tonka, where Tonka youth rolls the bench and Edina plays to win. 3 State HS championships for Tonka and 0 for Edina. I think 4 or 5 youth championships for Tonka, but primarily at U14. Certainly a number of youth state championships for Edina. Edina has probably 50% more youth players than Tonka, so a much larger pool to choose from. Obviously Tonka has a wealth of talent, but that talent has peaked. Both Edina and Tonka have lost players to the private 'B' schools. Tonka's U12 team about 5 years ago lost 1 game all year out of 40+, likely beating Edina 4 or 5 times, but lost in the championship game as they rolled their bench. We won't speculate what may have happened if Tonka employed the Edina philosophy. Maybe this even helped Tonka in the long run and made them hungrier to never let that happen again. Of course, in HS, they play primarily 2 lines when the games are on the line. Is there a connection between U12 and youth philosophy and HS success, everything else being equal? Likely some level, but I don't know how strong this link actually may be since there are so many other confounding factors. Another strong Edina U12 team, so we'll check in about 5 years from now to see if they've earned that first banner. In the meantime, they can visit the PAC and see what the banners look like up close.

[peterthepuck]

Peter, peter, peter, so much anger and so little to show for it. I'm NOT sure why you are so bitter, but if you spent a little more time "developing" hockey talent you might have more to show for it and less to be angry about. What do you mean when you say "congrats on developing 2 of 15 girls this year"? Do you say this because there are 2 girls that stand out above the crowd on the Edina team? FYI, every team has a pecking order of talent...figure it out. The truth is every girl on the Edina 12A team makes any 12A team in the State...period! You can't say that for the other teams rosters...the Edina girls are GOOD! Give ALL those girls credit because they ALL worked too hard and they deserve it!

As far as your BS argument about "NO win HS team"...time will only tell on how this group of girls will do at the HS level. I'm pretty confident they will be vying for State Championships in the near future. But, remember winning State isn't all about talent. There are a lot of factors that go into a Championship like injuries, bad luck, good luck, etc... besides, according to Hanson brother taking 4th is a lot of fun too!

Lastly, in reference to your comment on "JUST WIN BABY", I'd prefer to use a quote from another football legend:
"SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, AND I'LL SHOW YOU A LOSER!"
At least you're not a "LOSER"...you're just a poor loser!

Still weak Ronnie, Edina girls have won multiple youth titles over the years and still no HS Banner. Why is that? I guess at the youth level two or three girls can carry an entire team when you shorten the bench and play them 80% of your third periods and OT. If your such a great team, why not roll three lines? What are you afraid of? Time will tell at HS for this group. Especially after you are gutted by the privates and your superstars will never wear a hornet sweater. You know the facts Ronnie, don't hide, they will not be playing for Edina HS. Remove your two girls and no way does your team win State. You were not that gooood, sorry to burst your bubble. Not bitter, just a fact. Your a good team, but not a great team. Think what you want in your green, little-man blinders. I can't believe Slo approves of your tactics. She is left with UN-developed players at the HS level due to youth politics and coaching.

[RealisticRonnie]

Get your facts straight! First of all, Edina did roll lines...as much as every other team did. It's funny how when you lose you claim the bench was shortened. A joke! If you followed that team all year you would know they rolled lines 98% of the season. Did certain players see more ice time late in the State tournament??? Of course they did! Go back and watch the tapes...the third line was on the ice with two minutes left in both the qtrs and finals!

My whole argument about shortening the bench is twofold. 1. Edina is and was NOT guilty of any extreme bench shortening. 2. I believe that in certain circumstances it is OK (and the right thing to do) to lean on certain players. I am NOT an advocate of a short bench at 10's or 12's...in fact Edina does have a equal play policy so all you Know-it-alls are in the wrong.

Sinbin, love ya! The banners do hang in Pagel and congrats to those girls. Their is no question in my mind they are most deserving! We can share a beer anytime and discuss Edina's chances in the future because I think they are GOOD!

Development? I will stand by the development of the Edina girls hockey program though...they are good and they will continue to get better. I hate to break it to you Peterthepuck, but THEY are staying so get used to whining about all of the inequities in your world. I could go on and on with Peterthepuck and his bitterness, but my "development" time is too precious so on this subject we will just have to agree to disagree. Oh and BTW, who cares if you think the Edina 12's were good and not great? Do you think they care??? I can promise you they don't spend one second worrying about if they were good or great or what you think! They are too busy continuing to work at getting better and well, of course, admiring the STATE CHAMPION medals they all have around their neck.

CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL THE GIRLS THAT PARTICIPATED IN THE 12A STATE TOURNAMENT! IT WAS AN UNBELIEVABLE EVENT AND ALL THE TEAMS SHOULD BE PROUD! BEST OF LUCK TO ALL THE GIRLS IN THEIR FUTURE HOCKEY CAREERS!

[Hard water fan]

I guess what is most surprising to me is why anyone would leave Edina intentionally. Given the quality of the school, the hockey, the opportunities- even a move to a private is a step back. The few that are lucky enough to play for Edina can proudly say they play for the top hockey program in the country. Now, green envy may argue otherwise, but I'm willing to bet most of the comments against their program is nothing short of jealousy. Boys or girls, short bench or long, Edina is the bar...