Girls AAA

[tarasov]

Jr. Chill???? Never heard of them....

[HuskiesHockey]

they are a program based in the west suburbs that relies on cheating to win hockey games. You'll know they're cheating if they win, they could never win without cheating. They hang banners in their rink to celebrate their illegitimate wins. They make money from claiming that they develop players when everyone knows if they played at the correct level they would be an embarrassment. You'll know them when you see them, they'll be the bigger, more "mature" looking team on the ice.

[InigoMontoya]

Jr. Chill???? Never heard of them....

This is my point.

I'm not defending the Chill. I don't think a 12U team should have 99 players. As a matter of fact, I don't think a team calling themselves the 01 Whatevers should have 00 players. Call yourselves the Whatever Majors/Minors or Whatever Coach's Name. And, yes, there are other teams that have done/are doing the same thing, and, no, I don't think that's OK either. My question is simply, why is it such a huge problem now when it hasn't been in the past, and why this team that most people have never heard of?

[observer]

I don't think a 12U team should have 99 players.

Just stick with that. Nobody should cheat. Nothing makes it ok.

They need to shuffle their teams now. My guess is management is lazy and didn't want to recruit the 2-3 girls per team they needed to make full teams of 15 skaters and age appropriate goalies. Also parents want their daughters to skate with certain friends. Move on. Making new friends is what summer AAA is all about. It's not just the Chill teams it affects. It affects all the organizations that have teams at the same age.

Thanks for calling out the less than scrupulous team administrators and getting this fixed now. They will be a better organization for correcting their ways.

[HuskiesHockey]

I guess I disagree with your point that other teams are doing the same thing. The Chill are doing it constantly and doing it to a degree that is ridiculous. I have the same question, why hasn't this been a problem before? Why have people been aware of it but not willing to bring it up? I don't know, I can't speak for anyone else. I know that once I had proof that that they were openly cheating on a regular basis I decided to bring it up. I just think its totally unacceptable and should not be tolerated. I teach my kids and my players to follow rules and play fair and while nobody is perfect I think there should be some integrity to the game. If we're not going to play by the rules what do you propose we do? Who gets to decide what exactly is too old? You imply other programs are doing this and I will challenge you to call them out here. The Chill are a fraud and someone needed to say it.

you bring up 00's on an '01 team again and again I will say I don't care if you call your U12 team the Minnesota Mini Mites as long as you play girls are the right age for the level/tournament they're playing.

This team that no one has ever heard of wants to be heard of. Hanging banners to celebrate dishonest wins is going to bring attention, I guess they've got the attention they wanted now.

My advice to them: next time you cheat you have to lay a little lower, cheat for third place instead of first and maybe you won't get noticed so much.

My question to you; what is the appropriate response to cheating to this degree in youth sports? Should I have just asked them to please stop cheating? It didn't work.

IM, this is ugly stuff and it needs to be brought into the light. Find me another program doing the same thing to the same degree and I would react the same way.

If I seem a little too angry over it is because of the private messages I have been getting from their delusional parents and some things I'm hearing behind the scenes about their response to this. They are telling their parents that AAA is not regulated and therefore open to interpretation. Funny, the rest of us "interpret" the rules one way and they interpret them another. They are also saying that since the tournaments don't check, they don't care. I guess if someone leaves their wallet on a table it's ok to take it, they must not care. I love the message. The program is a fraud and every coach should feel confident calling out their roster in any tournament they play in. They have 4 confirmed 99's on their U1 team and 3-4 on their U10 team. They'll stop when the cheating costs them wins.

[HuskiesHockey]

I am bothered by something I wrote and I want to address it. I advised the Chill to lay a little lower next time they cheat and I feel horrible about it, its insulting. Me giving the Chill advice about cheating would be like giving Michael Jordan advice about how to play basketball. I was out of line and I apologize. You guys don't need any help from me, you've mastered it.

[InigoMontoya]

I guess I disagree with your point that other teams are doing the same thing.

That's not open for agreement/disagreement. An example: last year I stopped to talk to a friend that had a kid playing in a 10U tourney. I complimented her on how well they were doing; she pointed out that their best player was a 2000, but since it was a lesser tourney, no one seemed to mind. This was a team from a very well known program.

I believed her, not only because I'd heard of several other teams that had a couple girls, but because I had personally heard a guy from that program say that he would talk to a tourney director about a couple other girls for a different team that were born later in the year, so it should be OK.

I guess I never presumed that I knew what was best for girls AAA hockey in Minnesota. It's been growing; I guess the guys running it are doing a better job than I could, so who am I to question them.

[HuskiesHockey]

well I don't cheat and the people i know don't cheat and i know a lot of people. I will say AGAIN that just because you've heard of someone else doing it at some point does not make it right (don't most of us tell our kids that). This is crazy. What kind of standard should we hold ourselves to? So the Chill bring girls who are just "a little" older than mine, then next time i bring girls who are just a little older than theirs, then next time they bring girls who are just a little older than mine? The reason there are rules is to create a level, fair playing field. Lines have to be drawn somewhere. I'm glad you're comfortable with people making their own decisions where lines should be drawn for their particular team, nothing could go wrong with that right? I guess I'm ok with it becoming a free for all if the Chill are, I just want to know what the rules are. maybe I should call them prior to each tournament to find out what age players i should be bringing to play them. The funny thing is, i tried that too and they wouldn't respond. they aren't interested in playing players their age, that would mean losing. They know they need to play everyone else's younger players to have a chance to win. this is what makes them particularly pathetic. This is a mediocre program with mediocre players, flip the cheat switch and they're champs. Have you ever heard of another program that hangs summer banners?

[HOK2013]

I have a simple question here. Why is it ok for an JAN 02 to play U10 AAA but a DEC01 cant? Is the DEC01 going to blow the competition away because they are a few days older? I agree that a rule is a rule but the birth year thing doesn't work in my opinion. There is a huge difference in an older 01 who played a full year of U12's (ie: going into 7th grade) vs. and 01 who just got done with U10's(going into 6th grade). They have both grade level maturity and 1 full season of experience over the younger 01.

To simplify things, girls should just play at the level they are moving to the following season.

Personally I think any girl playing U10 AAA who was born between 7/1/2002 - 12/31/2002 is just as big of a problem as an 01 born before 7/1/2001.

You can sit here and bash all you want but can you honestly say they have an advantage using 01's who played U10 last season and are moving to U12 next vs. 02's moving to U12?

Maybe someone should start a AAA team called the December 02's and get all the good DEC 02's together. Then they can kick some butt and nobody would call them cheaters!

[lrugland]

There are really only a few true AAA teams in the state anyway. AAA / summer hockey has changed so much that there should be leagues because everyone wants to play in the summer. In the big tourneys rules should be followed and players should be checked. I can say I have never went to a big tourney where our players have not been checked.

Good luck fixing this issue.

[mnburn1924]

Rules are rules, why do some feel the need to go by there own set of rules. The tournament has set the rules and those are the Rules every team should hold themselves to. That's very simple in my mind.

I think you bring up a very good point about players that were born in Dec01, the problem I still have with it is rules are rules. No gray area. Like Huskie guys is saying, so then where do you draw the line on cheating. Make it easy and go by the rules that AAA plays by. Whether you agree with them or not, it's not your CHOICE to change them and play by your own set of rules.

Come on People! Simple stuff here.

[HuskiesHockey]

HOK2013 you asked a simple question and I will give you a simple answer: BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE RULES!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you an adult? You don't think a rule makes sense so you don't know why you would have to follow it? If you disagree with any rule it is your right to try to get it changed but not your right to CHEAT because you disagree with it. The people with boys in AAA must be laughing their asses off right now. I know a kid who is a very good 99 - born on December 31, 1999. If he was born a few hours later he would have been one of the best 2000's in the state, small problem, HE WASN'T! Do you think his dad signs him for 2000 because "what's the big deal?" You're nuts and people like you will continue to be the cause for girls hockey to not be taken seriously. I have a December 2004 daughter with a best friend born Feb 2005 - THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT! That's life and we make the best of it, we don't decide our own rules. By the way if there is no difference with these "young" 2001's, let's see you play without them. I've seen you play. These "fill in" players as you guys like to call them score 95% of your goals and stop the other team from scoring 95% of their goals. It's not up to you, the rules are what they are, follow them or get out.

[HuskiesHockey]

There are really only a few true AAA teams in the state anyway. AAA / summer hockey has changed so much that there should be leagues because everyone wants to play in the summer. In the big tourneys rules should be followed and players should be checked. I can say I have never went to a big tourney where our players have not been checked.

Good luck fixing this issue.

You're 100% right, very few legit AAA teams and the ones that can compete have worked hard to get there. This Chill program has decided to cheat it's way to the top. I would love to see a summer league of some sort set up as a local governing body would likely come with it.

Like I've said several times in this thread, the tournament directors have become very "loose" with checking BC's. They have to understand that while they like to get the money from questionable teams in the short term, there will be long term consequences when some of the programs get sick of dealing with this and start doing their own tournaments to compete with them. ALL tournaments should require birth certificate check in period. Programs like the Chill may try to alter or forge birth certificates and I'm not sure how to solve that but we need to start somewhere.

[Driving2Hockey]

HOK2013, rules are rules. There will always be an oldest and there will always be a youngest. I've got a boy with a December birthday. It is a bummer he is always the youngest on AAA but he is on the older side of association hockey. Those are the rules and life isn’t always fair. The difference here is Jr. Chill doesn't follow the rules and it gives them a HUGE advantage. For example at U10, every other AAA program uses 2002 and 2003 players. Jr. Chill uses 2001. If you start to say Dec '01 is OK then Nov '01 will want to play. Last year Jr. Chill had a summer '00 player on their U10 team who was in 7th grade last fall. She was playing against girls a grade or two younger. It was a HUGE advantage and against the rules. The Jr. Chill cheated. If you want to argue AAA should be association years instead of birth years that is fine but that’s a different topic and doesn’t make what Jr. Chill does right. They cheat. Ironically, if you can get the USA and Canada to go to Association years for AAA (which won’t happen) I guarantee the Jr. Chill would still cheat and then use older spring players. Once a cheater, always a cheater! The Jr. Chill has always cheated and thank you HuskiesHockey for calling them out!

[U10Father]

Programs like the Chill may try to alter or forge birth certificates and I'm not sure how to solve that but we need to start somewhere.

I think we're getting silly now. Wanna toss out steroids or HGH? Russian ringers? Clones?

[Deep Breath]

This issue the main reason why i am happy that many girls tournaments are going to birth year next summer. You want 01s playing on a team of mainly 02s, that is fine but your team will be competing in the '01 level. Makes sense to have girls playing against players their own age, as it is on the boys' side....in the summer anyway.

[Hockeyguy83]

I love this! Now all we have to do is get tournament directors to see this thread and the more parents of Chill players so they realize what is going on.

A couple of comments - HOK2013 - I think your suggestion is a good one to have girls play with the age group they are GOING INTO for the next association year - not the one they just played. If that were the case, the Chill would have 90% of their players ineligible. On their U12 roster, I believe they only have 2 players that will be playing U12 next year. All the rest will be playing U14. What I don't get as a parent, is why would I want my kid playing on that team? Isn't the purpose of summer hockey to prepare for the next season? "Hockey teams are made in the winter, hockey players are made in the summer". What good does it do for these girls to be playing against younger competition? As we all know, each level gets faster and more physical - why not expose your kid to that in the summer so they are more ready for the season?

Not sure who mentioned that faking birth certificates was a joke and thought HuskiesHockey went too far with that - as FYI, the Chill has rostered fake players in the past. You know they had a fake BC in case the tournament director asked for them (if not, they had some story as to why they do not have a birth certificiate).

Just so you all know - both their U10 and U12 teams are playing in the Caribou Cup. Maybe someone needs to reach out to the TD's and show them this thread?

[HuskiesHockey]

Programs like the Chill may try to alter or forge birth certificates and I'm not sure how to solve that but we need to start somewhere.

I think we're getting silly now. Wanna toss out steroids or HGH? Russian ringers? Clones?

U10 - the whole thing is "silly". Cheating at U10 and U12 girls hockey is pathetic and silly. So the've rostered fake names in the past, they have a culture of cheating to win, but faking a BC is too much. I think you're giving this program more credit than they've earned

[Lace'emUp]

First and foremost, rules are rules, and they must be followed. That's all I'll say on that point.

Next point: IMO, if your child will be entering U12 this fall, why would you have them play U10 this summer? Same with the kids who will play U14 this fall. IMO, No point to play U12. As one poster commented similarly, wouldn't you want to challenge yourself and prepare for this fall?

3rd point: Are we certain that the Chill are using 1999's on their U12 team (or 2001's on U10)? Is this fact or speculation? Has someone seen the BC’s? Roughly 50% of 7th graders that played 2nd year U12 last year were 2000 year birthdates. Is there a chance they’re all 2000's? If so, then they fall within the rules.

Last point: It does appear that at least 12 of the 14 Chill U12 Navy team is 2nd year U12. 8 are from Wayzata, a couple from Hutch, and a couple more from CR/M-WT. That's a fact that can be verified by a quick search/cross-reference of their association websites (took me 10 min). So yes, almost their entire team will play U14 or JV/V this fall - but the question remains, are they 1999's, or 2000's?

[mnburn1924]

Nice work Lace'emUp!

I think the bricks might be a crumbling down on the chill program. To many people are looking into this. I hope for their case they're legit!

Huskie guys seems like he's done his homework.

[HuskiesHockey]

First and foremost, rules are rules, and they must be followed. That's all I'll say on that point.

Next point: IMO, if your child will be entering U12 this fall, why would you have them play U10 this summer? Same with the kids who will play U14 this fall. IMO, No point to play U12. As one poster commented similarly, wouldn't you want to challenge yourself and prepare for this fall?

3rd point: Are we certain that the Chill are using 1999's on their U12 team (or 2001's on U10)? Is this fact or speculation? Has someone seen the BC’s? Roughly 50% of 7th graders that played 2nd year U12 last year were 2000 year birthdates. Is there a chance they’re all 2000's? If so, then they fall within the rules.

Last point: It does appear that at least 12 of the 14 Chill U12 Navy team is 2nd year U12. 8 are from Wayzata, a couple from Hutch, and a couple more from CR/M-WT. That's a fact that can be verified by a quick search/cross-reference of their association websites (took me 10 min). So yes, almost their entire team will play U14 or JV/V this fall - but the question remains, are they 1999's, or 2000's?

I think the proof vs. speculation question is what has kept this issue in the dark for so long. This post is well known in the Chill program; has one person come forward to say it isn't true? No, they have said they disagree with the rule and that it shouldn't be a big deal, but not one parent or organizer has denied it. I did the research myself and also talked to many of their parents. This is coming from their parents - there are at least four known 99's on their U12 team this year and a "few" 01's on their U10 team. The U10 head coach's daughter is an '01, I did verify this. My daughter flat out asked another girl from their U10 team (one that i did not suspect) and the girl told her she was an '01. I don't think they're hiding the fact that their players are the age they are, they're just saying they don't care. I've called the organization cheats 100 times or so, do you think they would have defended themselves by now if i was wrong? If i am wrong Chill parents and leadership - PLEASE respond!

I couldn't care less where they will play next year. That implies that it would somehow make a difference as to what level they should play this summer. To me it's entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is that they are playing by the rules we all play by and they're not.

The fact that some people don't think this is a big deal speaks more to people not taking girls hockey seriously than anything else. It's too bad

[thoen]

fascinating stuff. I am a little torn on this one. I coach the '03 Orange and we lost to the "U10" Chill 4-1 in the semifinals of the AAA Independent Classic a month ago, depsite the fact we outshot them 31-9. So, am i supposed to be upset that we lost to a team that reportedly has illegal players; or, should i be even more impressed with my team's efforts, knowing that we held a territorial advantage over a team that has 01's on it even though we have nothing but 03s and an 04?

[Lace'emUp]

Thanks for summarizing the body of proof regarding birthdates. With so many posts, didn't exactly know if it was speculation or fact.

Regarding their fall/winter association teams, I was only trying to determine how many 2nd year 12's they had playing. That would give you a good clue, or at least raise an eyebrow to their legitimacy. To me, all I had to see was their 2nd place photo on the team home page to say, "geez, they look a little bigger/mature than a U12 team" (for 2000/01's).

It will be interesting to see how the Caribou Cup folks (or any other tournament they enter) handle this situation, now that it's public knowledge.

Again, it boggles my mind on why on someone would want to play 12’s when you’re moving up to 14’s this fall (or play 10’s when you’re moving to 12’s).

[HuskiesHockey]

Tom, please clarify. You're "torn" about whether they should follow the rules because you were able to compete with a team that cheats with your, much younger, team? My take is, which team should you have played in the semi finals? That's the team that lost an opportunity that was taken from them by a cheating team. Whether you won or lost doesn't matter when the team you played was using ineligible players.

Those of us that know will all agree that their team is nothing special even with illegal players but again, let's stick to the point, it's not a team that should exist at all. Just because they're not very good doesn't diminish the fact that they are cheating to be whatever it is that they are.

Your '03 team will be good next year, but will they be good enough to beat the '02 Chill players? not so sure. maybe we'll get to find out.

Here's a good one for you. The same illegal team they won the U10 level independent Classic was entered into their own "open" level U10 tournament. So they win an invite tournament with illegal players and then host their (advertised as open level) tournament with the same team? Why have an open level? Oh yeah to win an easy championship. They advertise three u10 teams but the only one available that week was the highest one I guess. Luckily they were beat in their championship by a bunch of 2003's. the 2nd place banner will look nice at the rink though i guess...

[thoen]

Huskies: there was a bit of sarcasm entwined with my post. Make no mistake, if what is being posted here is accurate, it's a few steps past pathetic on the program's part. What i was referring to was that if they had a handful of 01s on the ice when we played them in the AAA, i can feel even better about the effort my girls put in knowing that they were on the ice against much older kids and still did very well.