How bad is IRC hockey?

[O-townClown]

How is Williams doing?

[ironranger2]

Thanks for the perspectives, PuckRanger and rainier...that certainly gives a better idea of what's going on in each of the Range towns. I'm not a Ranger, of course, but I think it's a good thing for hockey in this state when Range teams are making the trek down to St. Paul. Preferably the ones in Class A, of course.

I was going to ask about the apparent lack of teams relative to population in Hibbing. Hopefully the new coach makes good on his promise.

On the Eveleth co-op and its apparent lack of bang for its buck: do all of those schools feeding in provide players, or are some of them just along for the ride and contributing the occasional player, as Chisholm does with Hibbing?

I knew I-Falls was small, but I didn't know it was that small. Hopefully they can withstand this latest hit to the paper mill...given the town's isolation, I'm not sure what options they'd have, otherwise.

One advantage all these schools do have is very few of their kids choose to attend private schools, so with rare exceptions they're able to keep all the players they do develop.

While mostly true, there has been a slow but steady trickle of players from the smaller NE MN communities over the years--most notably to the two Duluth powers, though some others have gotten in on the act, too. And in communities like these, the impact of losing one or two players can be much larger than it is in urban or suburban programs that have the numbers to absorb the losses.

The majority of kids in the Eveleth-Gilbert/Mesabi East co-op are from Eveleth. Hoyt Lakes, Aurora, and then Gilbert make up the smaller portion of the coop. I don't think there is one kid from Biwabik and I am not sure about Cherry. I think an argument could be made by Puckranger that the vast majority of kids from Virginia/MIB are from Virginia. They probably get a few from Mt. Iron and I am guessing even less from Buhl.

[karl(east)]

While mostly true, there has been a slow but steady trickle of players from the smaller NE MN communities over the years--most notably to the two Duluth powers...

Curious, can you put some numbers on what you mean by "a slow but steady trickle"? And are these situations where the parents move too, possibly for employment reasons, or is it just so their kids can attend a different school, whether it be East or Marshall? I would guess it's too long a distance for the boys to commute back and forth every day.

Including players who came from Silver Bay and Two Harbors, I can think of at least ten in the past 20 years off the top of my head. There may be more to Marshall, too. Most if not all the families moved also, and while I can't pretend to know all the families' motives, hockey was definitely the driving force for a few of them.

[elliott70]

How is Williams doing?

Not on the Iron Range, not Section 7, not even a town/school.
Well, some may argue that.
But a lot of great hockey players played there.

[Traxler]

While mostly true, there has been a slow but steady trickle of players from the smaller NE MN communities over the years--most notably to the two Duluth powers...

Curious, can you put some numbers on what you mean by "a slow but steady trickle"? And are these situations where the parents move too, possibly for employment reasons, or is it just so their kids can attend a different school, whether it be East or Marshall? I would guess it's too long a distance for the boys to commute back and forth every day.

Including players who came from Silver Bay and Two Harbors, I can think of at least ten in the past 20 years off the top of my head. There may be more to Marshall, too. Most if not all the families moved also, and while I can't pretend to know all the families' motives, hockey was definitely the driving force for a few of them.

I don't remember who it was or exactly when it was, but there was a transfer from Greenway to Duluth East (maybe in the past 10 years) who was really strong.

[MNHockeyFan]

Including players who came from Silver Bay and Two Harbors, I can think of at least ten in the past 20 years off the top of my head. There may be more to Marshall, too. Most if not all the families moved also, and while I can't pretend to know all the families' motives, hockey was definitely the driving force for a few of them.

I was asking about just the range schools. I can easily see Two Harbors, which has no real hockey tradition on its own and is so much closer to Duluth...shoot I walked there and back with a group of buddies when I was 12 years old! (not kidding - we did a 50 mile hike!)

[PuckRanger]

While I do agree with 99% of your takes. Puck Ranger, there is one statement that I must clarify a bit. (Because you and I are Virginia and Hibbing rubes, respectively, and it is fun to have some rivalry banter.)

I don't agree with your statement "When you look at it pound for pound, Hibbing's numbers are pretty weak in comparison with the rest of the Range." You paint Hibbing as some IRC metropolis that fails to produce hockey success commensurate with their size. Let's take a look at how this assertion is exaggerated to make Hibbing look bad while simultaneously making Virginia look good.

You're right, it is fun to banter... so I'll play along.

To be honest, I don't think that made Virginia look any better than anyone else... It makes Grand Rapids look great and International Falls look like they do a fine job with what they have. But more importantly, it shows what the IRC schools are up against. I think some people think all these associations are drawing from and supported by larger populations than they really are. I also wanted to point out, that contrary to what a lot of folks that aren't from around here may think, Hibbing is the largest city on the Range, not Grand Rapids (if you believe they are part of the Iron Range at all). That is aimed more as a compliment to Grand Rapids and what they do with their hockey program than it is as a shot at Hibbing... As I, and probably most others, think Hibbing does just fine. It also shows that Eveleth isn't the tiny little IRC underdog like Greenway actually is.

You used total population numbers to determine the size of the talent pool for each IRC program, but that really doesn't provide an accurate picture of what each program is really working with. (Not to mention that you conveniently neglected to add the Mountain Iron-Buhl populations to the Virginia population, despite making sure you had all the other cooperative programs added up fully. If you add in MI-B, the VMIB population is 12,514, moving the Blue Devils up from "poor little " 4th to "IRC behemoth" 2nd on your list; a number significantly larger than powerhouse Grand Rapids.)

School enrollment is the number to look at. Here are the IRC enrollments:

1. Grand Rapids 941
2. Hibbing-Chisholm 764
3. Eveleth-Gilbert-Mesabi East-Cherry 588
4. Virginia-Mountain Iron-Buhl 533
5. Greenway-Nashwauk-Keewatin 368
6. International Falls 340

At first glance, it would appear Hibbing has a decided enrollment advantage over the teams below them, but one has to realize that Chisholm is 100% a basketball community and therefore contributes very little to the H-C hockey program. (When H-C made it to the state semis in 2011 the team had one Chisholm kid that got regular playing time.)
Given this, Hibbing's enrollment for hockey purposes is not much higher than the 597 that Hibbing by itself is.

So Hibbing's effective enrollment is perhaps 100 greater than VMIB, and I would say that the success of Hibbing and Virginia over the last decade mirrors that difference pretty closely. In other words, I think both communities are getting the same ratio of talent from their available kids.

The reason I used population is I was trying to point where the youth programs may be headed (And I did say it was purely speculative). Enrollment numbers are for grades 9-12 only. That really doesn't include any youth levels, which are primarily grades 3-8. In fact, enrollment in Virginia is growing at the elementary level - so much so they are having issues with where to put all of the kids. If that does continue, they will be out of class rooms in a few years. The numbers you show above would never reflect that... although neither would the population number as that continues to drop. Mt. Iron and Buhl are not part of the Virginia youth hockey association. It is Virginia only. In fact, I don't think even there are any MI-B players left at the high school level anymore. There might be some Mt. Iron residents, but they all attend school in Virginia - and always have.

Looking at enrollment numbers, I would say the Eveleth cooperative is the least effective pound for pound. They have an enrollment even larger than VMIB yet they usually are not remotely competitive with the top 5 teams in 7A. (I will refrain from making a joke referring to VMIB's 3-3 tie with E-G this season.)

I'll lay off the joke for St. Francis loss then too But you are right, Eveleth is the only one drawing players from TWO youth hockey associations... although I do think they will eventually gobble up Mesabi East entirely. But they do draw from 5 towns with Eveleth, Gilbert, Aurora, Hoyt Lakes, and Biwabik. These towns used to have 4 different high schools among them. They have had good numbers in the past (I think they had 18 seniors 3 or 4 years ago, but still played to running-time losses with Virginia, Hibbing, International Falls, and Grand Rapids.) They have had problems keeping the high end players in their program and the ones that do stay seem to never reach their full potential. I do know a couple people involved at the lower youth levels that seem to have things going the right direction, and if they are able to see things through the higher levels, they may finally be back to a competitive state. That's a big "IF" though. There is a political history of those people being run out of the program.

I would also have to say that I-Falls is the most effective pound for pound. Before this lost season, I-Falls was right there with VMIB, H-C, Denfeld, and they always gave Marshall all they could handle. They were highly competitive despite having fewer kids than freaking Greenway! Too bad the bottom seems to have fallen out with the paper mill layoffs.

I can't argue with that. The population will probably continue to decline rapidly there too when the full effect of the most recent permanent layoff takes full hold. Its also impressive in the fact that they have a TON of travel in the youth ranks, just because of where they are located.

As for Hibbing, they continue to produce solid teams, and they were on track to be a much better team this season before academic/disciplinary/transfer issues took their 3 "Elite" level players off the team. Their Bantam AA team is ranked #10 by Youth Hockey Hub, so they should at least have a solid chance of taking down Hermantown or Marshall over the next few seasons, which is nice.

You are right, the younger levels don't look as bright for Hibbing as they do for VMIB and GR (obviously). But new Hibbing varsity coach Versich has said that he plans to "revamp the entire youth program", so hopefully he can spearhead a new commitment to bolstering the association. Hibbing is also the only non-GR IRC team to opt up and play AA at the youth levels, so a lack of success in youth years may not correlate to a lack of success once they get to high school.

That is partially true. Although, I don't think Hibbing will stick in AA much longer. Perhaps another year or two, but they are not close to competing with the better A programs at the Peewee and lower levels. Even though they are AA, they still play the same type of schedule as a Virginia, I Falls, Eveleth, etc. Its really just a title and where they play at the end of the year, which in this case results in a free pass to Regions since there are only two AA teams in District 12. They would not get out of Districts if they played at the A level in Peewees this year and are not even close (I am talking 10-20 goal spreads) at the Squirt level when they play Virginia, Eveleth, and I Falls. I guess my point is, while they have always put a competitive team out on the ice at the varsity level, they have never been this weak at the youth level and the numbers have never been so low, so at the very least, there is a dip coming, and I think coach Versich has his work cut out for him in revamping the youth program. Virginia looked like this a few years ago, and these are the teams that you see now and the next couple years. They are no where near a Duluth Marshall or a Hermantown talent-wise now, so you can see the correlation. That is just what I see coming for Hibbing now... Just like most of the others, they will eventually rebound... Not trying to pick your Blue Jackets apart.

I appreciate all your insight into IRC hockey, Puck Ranger, you know 1,000 times more than I do about it. But I can't resist chiming in when I see you take veiled shots at my Blue Jackets. I also like to take shots at your Blue Devils, and it's fun when you respond to my takes also.

Virginia and Hibbing appear to be very evenly matched teams this season. Virginia has better offense, Hibbing has better defense, and while Virginia's goaltending has been outstanding at times, I'd say Hibbing's has been more consistent. Should be a great couple games this season!

I don't think Virginia is quite at the level of Hibbing this year. They have some hard working kids, but there isn't a ton of talent. Passing is sub-par, defense is non-existent, and they have a goalie who can steal a game one night (Cloquet) and cost you one the next (Mahtomedi). Zero consistency from top to bottom. I would be a little surprised if Virginia wins a game against Hibbing this year or in the next three years for that matter. But after that, I think the pendulum swings completely the other way. The only thing going is the rivalry, which should keep the games competitive and a little more intense and interesting than they otherwise might be - and as always could spring the occasional upset.

[PuckRanger]

Thanks for the perspectives, PuckRanger and rainier...that certainly gives a better idea of what's going on in each of the Range towns. I'm not a Ranger, of course, but I think it's a good thing for hockey in this state when Range teams are making the trek down to St. Paul. Preferably the ones in Class A, of course.

I was going to ask about the apparent lack of teams relative to population in Hibbing. Hopefully the new coach makes good on his promise.

On the Eveleth co-op and its apparent lack of bang for its buck: do all of those schools feeding in provide players, or are some of them just along for the ride and contributing the occasional player, as Chisholm does with Hibbing?

I knew I-Falls was small, but I didn't know it was that small. Hopefully they can withstand this latest hit to the paper mill...given the town's isolation, I'm not sure what options they'd have, otherwise.

One advantage all these schools do have is very few of their kids choose to attend private schools, so with rare exceptions they're able to keep all the players they do develop.

While mostly true, there has been a slow but steady trickle of players from the smaller NE MN communities over the years--most notably to the two Duluth powers, though some others have gotten in on the act, too. And in communities like these, the impact of losing one or two players can be much larger than it is in urban or suburban programs that have the numbers to absorb the losses.

The majority of kids in the Eveleth-Gilbert/Mesabi East co-op are from Eveleth. Hoyt Lakes, Aurora, and then Gilbert make up the smaller portion of the coop. I don't think there is one kid from Biwabik and I am not sure about Cherry. I think an argument could be made by Puckranger that the vast majority of kids from Virginia/MIB are from Virginia. They probably get a few from Mt. Iron and I am guessing even less from Buhl.

Yes, that is correct. I am surprised the coop is still in effect. Mt. Iron has contributed very few players in recent years and I don't think there are any left on the varsity any more. They are not a co-op at the youth level. Virginia stands on its own there, which is why I did not include Mt. Iron and Buhl's population in their number.

And to Karl's point about transfers, Virginia, Hibbing, Greenway, and Eveleth have all lost many players over the years to the likes of Duluth Marshall, Hermantown, and Duluth East. Almost every year one of them loses at least one. That may not seem like much, but it makes a huge difference when depth is always a battle for these teams.

[MTStringer]

Lots of truth in most of these comments. As a parent of a graduated GR hockey player and a grand parent of future Thunderhawks I'll add my 2 cents:

-Hockey has turned into a multi season sport that prohibits the players from playing some of the other sports and parents don't like this. Of course Spring and Fall participation is not mandatory but it is highly recommended. It was once common for hockey players to play football, track, soccer, etc. How many play now?
-Travel is expensive. My boy played more "in house hockey" than traveling and Rapids produced plenty of D1 players when he was playing.
-In GR hockey isn't the only game in town anymore. The GR basketball team has made it to six straight state tourneys. They also have a legitimate D1 player who has two older siblings playing D1 hockey.
-Expense. This has been beaten to death, but it is a huge factor.
-There is a huge perception that parent/coach politics are rampant in the youth levels and perception is reality. This is a deterrent for many parents of young children.

Hockey is a great sport, maybe the best in my eyes, and it is important that our kids (my grand children) enjoy it and learn the valuable life lessons that it and other sports can teach.

[Immigrant Fan]

I'm still relatively new to all of this, so perhaps someone could educate me on a point. Is AA that much more important than A for player's future prospects?

There was discussion of players leaving Range teams for Duluth. But, the nearest AA team to Hibbing and Greenway is Grand Rapids. Do players ever make the jump that short distance down US169?

Being relatively new, I can ignore deeply held rivalries and rules about transferring.

[MTStringer]

I'm still relatively new to all of this, so perhaps someone could educate me on a point. Is AA that much more important than A for player's future prospects?

There was discussion of players leaving Range teams for Duluth. But, the nearest AA team to Hibbing and Greenway is Grand Rapids. Do players ever make the jump that short distance down US169?

Being relatively new, I can ignore deeply held rivalries and rules about transferring.

Not really. A good hockey player will get noticed. There have been instances where some Greenway kids have transferred to GR and vice versa, but I don't see it as widespread.

Its important to remember that 99% of these kids playing (I hope yours is) will not go to college to play hockey and will go on to non-hockey careers. Unfortunately, there are some parents who forget this. Encourage your child to have fun and work hard if he/she is playing and the rest will take care of itself.

[rainier]

You're right, it is fun to banter... so I'll play along.

[/quote]

Thanks for a solid response. Always fun to get some good info and give and take a jab or two. Touche on the St. Francis loss; that one was a stinker.

It sounds as if Virginia may catch up to or even pass Hibbing in enrollment in the future, as I have not heard of a rise in enrollment for Hibbing at all.

I would hope the enrollments would rise some as more boomers retire and younger workers with families are needed. I know Hibtac recently put out a report saying they will need to hire a significant number of people over the next decade to replace waves of retirees. Hibtac also said there is over 100 years of ore left to be mined, so if (always a big if) demand stays strong, so should the mines. I read the mines are now putting out the same levels of ore that they were in the early 80's. (before the big downturn hit.)

I've already noticed more people I went to high school with (early to mid 90's) have returned to Hibbing, so there must be a few more jobs there these days. We'll see if that amounts to any increase in hockey participation.

Also, if the Essar, PolyMet, etc. projects get up and running fully, that should pump some new life into the range.

Hopefully one of us range teams can knock off Hermantown and/or especially Marshall in the 7A playoffs every once in a while as the years go by.

[O-townClown]

How is Williams doing?

Not on the Iron Range, not Section 7, not even a town/school.
Well, some may argue that.
But a lot of great hockey players played there.

And that was my point. Williams shows up in the history books but I don't recall them even fielding teams in the 1970s & 80s.

It is hard to envision "the Iron Range" coming back to prominence anytime soon for hockey. Grand Rapids, sure. Occasionally another school for Class A. Nothing like Rapids in the 70s followed by an awesome Greenway team in 1987. The demographics aren't going to support the youth hockey that is necessary to compete with the programs from the Twin Cities, other than GR which has been mentioned.

[puckbreath]

How is Williams doing?

Not on the Iron Range, not Section 7, not even a town/school.
Well, some may argue that.
But a lot of great hockey players played there.

And that was my point. Williams shows up in the history books but I don't recall them even fielding teams in the 1970s & 80s.

It is hard to envision "the Iron Range" coming back to prominence anytime soon for hockey. Grand Rapids, sure. Occasionally another school for Class A. Nothing like Rapids in the 70s followed by an awesome Greenway team in 1987. The demographics aren't going to support the youth hockey that is necessary to compete with the programs from the Twin Cities, other than GR which has been mentioned.

This can/will be said for many areas outside the range too, in the not so distant future.
It's already happening.

[elliott70]

How is Williams doing?

Not on the Iron Range, not Section 7, not even a town/school.
Well, some may argue that.
But a lot of great hockey players played there.

And that was my point. Williams shows up in the history books but I don't recall them even fielding teams in the 1970s & 80s.

It is hard to envision "the Iron Range" coming back to prominence anytime soon for hockey. Grand Rapids, sure. Occasionally another school for Class A. Nothing like Rapids in the 70s followed by an awesome Greenway team in 1987. The demographics aren't going to support the youth hockey that is necessary to compete with the programs from the Twin Cities, other than GR which has been mentioned.

40 50 into the 60

[puckbreath]

I'm still relatively new to all of this, so perhaps someone could educate me on a point. Is AA that much more important than A for player's future prospects?

There was discussion of players leaving Range teams for Duluth. But, the nearest AA team to Hibbing and Greenway is Grand Rapids. Do players ever make the jump that short distance down US169?

Being relatively new, I can ignore deeply held rivalries and rules about transferring.

Not really. A good hockey player will get noticed. There have been instances where some Greenway kids have transferred to GR and vice versa, but I don't see it as widespread.

Its important to remember that 99% of these kids playing (I hope yours is) will not go to college to play hockey and will go on to non-hockey careers. Unfortunately, there are some parents who forget this. Encourage your child to have fun and work hard if he/she is playing and the rest will take care of itself.

I'd agree with this. To a point. I believe AA does have a bias, advantage, whatever over A in at least some scout/whatevers eyes.

And I don't believe, completely, that the "a good hockey player will get noticed" is always right, all the time.

Definitely agree about the parents.

And no, I have no "dog"in the fight.

[old goalie85]

I say no. I grew up going to to the I-Falls B tourny. Great tounty!!! Please don't quit NORTH. We need & love you.!!!

[puckbreath]

Lots of truth in most of these comments. As a parent of a graduated GR hockey player and a grand parent of future Thunderhawks I'll add my 2 cents:

-Hockey has turned into a multi season sport that prohibits the players from playing some of the other sports and parents don't like this. Of course Spring and Fall participation is not mandatory but it is highly recommended. It was once common for hockey players to play football, track, soccer, etc. How many play now?
-Travel is expensive. My boy played more "in house hockey" than traveling and Rapids produced plenty of D1 players when he was playing.
-In GR hockey isn't the only game in town anymore. The GR basketball team has made it to six straight state tourneys. They also have a legitimate D1 player who has two older siblings playing D1 hockey.
-Expense. This has been beaten to death, but it is a huge factor.
-There is a huge perception that parent/coach politics are rampant in the youth levels and perception is reality. This is a deterrent for many parents of young children.

Hockey is a great sport, maybe the best in my eyes, and it is important that our kids (my grand children) enjoy it and learn the valuable life lessons that it and other sports can teach.

This is an area I don't believe metro teams can relate to, certainly to the same degree as out state teams. Metroites, correct me if wrong.

But hotel, etc. bills add up to a LOT of $ year after year after year, and with outstate teams, there's a lot of them each season.

[karl(east)]

I'm still relatively new to all of this, so perhaps someone could educate me on a point. Is AA that much more important than A for player's future prospects?

There was discussion of players leaving Range teams for Duluth. But, the nearest AA team to Hibbing and Greenway is Grand Rapids. Do players ever make the jump that short distance down US169?

Being relatively new, I can ignore deeply held rivalries and rules about transferring.

Not really. A good hockey player will get noticed. There have been instances where some Greenway kids have transferred to GR and vice versa, but I don't see it as widespread.

I'd agree with this. To a point. I believe AA does have a bias, advantage, whatever over A in at least some scout/whatevers eyes

On the Iron Range, at least, I don't think Class A status has hurt any potential college prospects. It may certainly be different in other parts of the state with less established hockey reputations, though. This is one place where I think tradition still pulls some weight.

The A vs. AA thing is more a matter of pride and prestige. While I'd hope that few would begrudge a team for playing Class A if they're small enough to do so and don't have the resources to contend with some consistency in AA, I'm guessing I speak for a lot of northerners when I say that we want our best teams to go down and compete with the best of the Metro--and not just the best of Class A, the best, period. These sorts of things run very deep, and they're part of the fabric that makes hockey up here into more than just a sport.

[puckbreath]

Not really. A good hockey player will get noticed. There have been instances where some Greenway kids have transferred to GR and vice versa, but I don't see it as widespread.

I'd agree with this. To a point. I believe AA does have a bias, advantage, whatever over A in at least some scout/whatevers eyes

On the Iron Range, at least, I don't think Class A status has hurt any potential college prospects. It may certainly be different in other parts of the state with less established hockey reputations, though. This is one place where I think tradition still pulls some weight.

The A vs. AA thing is more a matter of pride and prestige. While I'd hope that few would begrudge a team for playing Class A if they're small enough to do so and don't have the resources to contend with some consistency in AA, I'm guessing I speak for a lot of northerners when I say that we want our best teams to go down and compete with the best of the Metro--and not just the best of Class A, the best, period. These sorts of things run very deep, and they're part of the fabric that makes hockey up here into more than just a sport.

I think this has a lot to do with it.

[elliott70]

Why is ELY excluded from the discussions?

[Traxler]

Why is ELY excluded from the discussions?

Maybe for the same reason you excluded them from your recent Class A rankings - they're irrelevant.

[elliott70]

Why is ELY excluded from the discussions?

Maybe for the same reason you excluded them from your recent Class A rankings - they're irrelevant.

And the rest of the IRC is relevant (perhaps, perhaps GR)?

[elliott70]

Chisholm or Mountain Iron may pull an upset over Marshall and make the final game.

[PuckRanger]

Why is ELY excluded from the discussions?

Probably because Ely hasn't been part of the IRC since 1978 and never finished higher than 8th place when they were.

Just for fun, here was the IRC final standings the last year Ely was in the IRC:

1. Grand Rapids 12-1-1 37pts. (15-3-2)
2. International Falls 13-1-0 36pts. (17-3)
3. Greenway 10-3-2 32pts. (14-4-2)
4. Hibbing 10-6-0 20pts. (12-8)
5. Eveleth 7-8-1 23pts. (9-10-1)
6. Virginia 6-11 18pts. (7-13)
-. Aurora-Hoyt Lakes 8-8 18pts. (10-10)
8. Babbitt 6-8 14pts. (9-11)
9. Chisholm 5-9 10pts. (9-11)
10. Ely 2-12 4pts (5-14)
11. Gilbert 0-12 0pts. (2-17)

Mt. Iron was 5-9-1 that year, but not part of the conference.

Grand Rapids lost in the state championship that year to Edina East 5-4 in double-overtime, despite out-shooting them 52-23 in the game.