How to save girls Hockey

[observer]

Being boys hockey is what drives the association and brings in revenue

What? Not true. They usually pay the same amount. I understand your comment but that's part of the problem. Grow both sides. Often budgets are divided by level, or teams, so the revenue is based on numbers. You recruit more girls and they drive the association.

A few years ago I heard of a metro association that added more girls than boys one particular season. The girls recruiting effort was pro-active, innovative and fun and the boy’s effort was lazy. In some instances there may be more opportunities for growth on the girl’s side as it's a newer game.

[hockeychopper]

100% agree Observer. Maybe a new thread should be started and share as to what some of the more successful associations have done as far as marketing and recruiting. This should be a 12 month effort and not just a Sept-March effort. I believe more collaboration across all the associations may help drive this. I know some of the larger associations have more help at their disposal but why not collaborate and help some of the smaller associations grow? At the end of the day it's about opportunity for the kids boys and girls and offering these families a great "affordable" option. I know MN Hockey has tried to help consult (for lack of a better term) some player development and coaches training, not sure how successful this has been.

[zambonidriver]

Being boys hockey is what drives the association and brings in revenue

What? Not true. They usually pay the same amount. I understand your comment but that's part of the problem. Grow both sides. Often budgets are divided by level, or teams, so the revenue is based on numbers. You recruit more girls and they drive the association.

A few years ago I heard of a metro association that added more girls than boys one particular season. The girls recruiting effort was pro-active, innovative and fun and the boy’s effort was lazy. In some instances there may be more opportunities for growth on the girl’s side as it's a newer game.

recruiting get the kids hooked young. I proposed this idea to our association years ago. once the outdoor rinks get up and running in the winter have elementary school teams. that just play games after school. k-2 3-5 separate boys and girls teams. Use pond hockey boxes charge the kids a minimal fee basically to cover a school jersey and play games at the neighborhood rink. you could even make it half ice games with multiple pucks to introduce the game to young kids. and have an old fashioned bean feed at the end of a month long season. No winners no losers just old fashioned pond hockey. It fell on deaf ears

[observer]

My kids school (?) had money to have them give skiing a try along with countless other field trips and activities. The ski areas gave them passes to use in the future. I don't remember them ever going skating with school.

First step is more outdoor skating at the nearby park, even as part of phys ed.

Then add field trips to outdoor and indoor ice to at least expose kids to skating.

Minnesota Hockey might need to lead that one.

[Coachk]

Observer, in International Falls it is part of Physical Education but thats about it. I like that pond hockey idea for the little ones, brilliant. Canada is going through numbers issues as well, it would be interesting to see what they are doing to get the young one hooked.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

My buddies kid who goes to Marshall said his son has only skated one time in 5 years with school - and they have their own rink! Maybe metro schools with their own rinks (Wayzata, some privates, who am I missing?) skate more frequently as part of phy-ed curriculum?

[Clapper]

I have had three girls play girls hockey and one is in her senior year at a D1 school. My youngest is now playing youth. Here are the changes in girls hockey that I have noticed.
1. Large associations are selecting A teams with 10-13 skaters.
2. Goalie shortages and no goalie development
3. Even with smaller teams the benches get shortened.
4. No female coaches.
5. treating girls like boys.
6. more girls playing on the boys side.
7. High Schools robbing the youth programs.
Here is how to fix it.
1. All A rosters 15 skaters two goalies and roll the lines and alternate goalies. Develop all of the kids.
2. Find female non parent coaches.
3. Redraft bylaws of each association not to allow girls to cross over and then be willing to stand by the rules. or eliminate the girls program completely and have girls play with boys until bantams.
4. HAVE HIGH SCHOOL COACHES QUIT ROBBING THEIR YOUTH PROGRAMS. ALL OF THE SUCCESSFUL HIGH SCHOOLS DON'T LET JUNIOR HIGH AGE KIDS PLAY VARSITY BEFORE 9TH GRADE.
5. Girls are not boys they are wired different so don't treat them like boys.
6. girls hockey is still in it's infancy promote numbers and get rid of the elite ideas. Edina and NE metro are doing it right full squads at the A level and the kids are developing.
7. Stop all playups. If you don't have the numbers coop with another community.
8. Promote fun and sportsmanship over winning.

Major flaws in your solution
1. cannot predetermine roster #'s since girls hockey #'s are very inconsistent. Every year is different and it's always a #"s game
2. I think as you see girls hockey progress you will see more women step up to the plate and give back to the game.
3. Until girls hockey #'s are strong enough prohibiting girls from crossing over to the boys is completely impossible. Kind of funny this is coming from a guy that his daughter was going to tryout for boys last fall.
4. Again its a #'s game and until the #'s improve this will never change. Some programs don't even have a U14 team because the high school needs the players to fill roster spots. With that being said they don't have much choice. You also see girls coming up are getting better and better each year. Which is typical since girls hockey is still in its infancy. Because of this there are many 7th and 8th grader that are better then many upperclassmen. I have seen plenty of boys play as 8th graders at the varsity level if they are good enough. If you have the talent to play at a higher level why not?
7. Coops are very sticky and I have heard many complaints from associations that have tried it. The only time that I have seen it work good is when the merger is permanent. Like Como/Johnson or Tartan/North St. Paul. When your #'s are up a down every year its hard to commit to a permanent coop.

[zambonidriver]

I have had three girls play girls hockey and one is in her senior year at a D1 school. My youngest is now playing youth. Here are the changes in girls hockey that I have noticed.
1. Large associations are selecting A teams with 10-13 skaters.
2. Goalie shortages and no goalie development
3. Even with smaller teams the benches get shortened.
4. No female coaches.
5. treating girls like boys.
6. more girls playing on the boys side.
7. High Schools robbing the youth programs.
Here is how to fix it.
1. All A rosters 15 skaters two goalies and roll the lines and alternate goalies. Develop all of the kids.
2. Find female non parent coaches.
3. Redraft bylaws of each association not to allow girls to cross over and then be willing to stand by the rules. or eliminate the girls program completely and have girls play with boys until bantams.
4. HAVE HIGH SCHOOL COACHES QUIT ROBBING THEIR YOUTH PROGRAMS. ALL OF THE SUCCESSFUL HIGH SCHOOLS DON'T LET JUNIOR HIGH AGE KIDS PLAY VARSITY BEFORE 9TH GRADE.
5. Girls are not boys they are wired different so don't treat them like boys.
6. girls hockey is still in it's infancy promote numbers and get rid of the elite ideas. Edina and NE metro are doing it right full squads at the A level and the kids are developing.
7. Stop all playups. If you don't have the numbers coop with another community.
8. Promote fun and sportsmanship over winning.

Major flaws in your solution
1. cannot predetermine roster #'s since girls hockey #'s are very inconsistent. Every year is different and it's always a #"s game
2. I think as you see girls hockey progress you will see more women step up to the plate and give back to the game.
3. Until girls hockey #'s are strong enough prohibiting girls from crossing over to the boys is completely impossible. Kind of funny this is coming from a guy that his daughter was going to tryout for boys last fall.
4. Again its a #'s game and until the #'s improve this will never change. Some programs don't even have a U14 team because the high school needs the players to fill roster spots. With that being said they don't have much choice. You also see girls coming up are getting better and better each year. Which is typical since girls hockey is still in its infancy. Because of this there are many 7th and 8th grader that are better then many upperclassmen. I have seen plenty of boys play as 8th graders at the varsity level if they are good enough. If you have the talent to play at a higher level why not?
7. Coops are very sticky and I have heard many complaints from associations that have tried it. The only time that I have seen it work good is when the merger is permanent. Like Como/Johnson or Tartan/North St. Paul. When your #'s are up a down every year its hard to commit to a permanent coop.

Clapper you obviously have all the answers and you must know me pretty well and yes I am commenting how an association has been ruined and I believe you have had a hand in it. Your arguments are excuses and yes my daughter was going to play boys until she decided she wanted to play girls.

[BluehawkHockey]

7. Coops are very sticky and I have heard many complaints from associations that have tried it. The only time that I have seen it work good is when the merger is permanent. Like Como/Johnson or Tartan/North St. Paul. When your #'s are up a down every year its hard to commit to a permanent coop.

Coops can be sticky and and uncomfortable for parents, kids and boards. The parents and kids usually get over it pretty quickly. The boards usually have the most trouble with it. Figuring out the logistics to make it work does take time and effort. So they are always resistant to it. But if it was a coop for their boys to play, it wouldn't be a problem at all and would be done as quickly as possible.

I agree that long term coops are better. I think 5 years is about the right length for them. That way those U10 girls can get through at least 1 season of U14.

The biggest benefit of a coop is that it allows the ups and downs to be smoothed out. Less playing up, more opportunities to play at the right level. Get to know other kids and learn to play with them over a longer period of time.

[Clapper]

I have had three girls play girls hockey and one is in her senior year at a D1 school. My youngest is now playing youth. Here are the changes in girls hockey that I have noticed.
1. Large associations are selecting A teams with 10-13 skaters.
2. Goalie shortages and no goalie development
3. Even with smaller teams the benches get shortened.
4. No female coaches.
5. treating girls like boys.
6. more girls playing on the boys side.
7. High Schools robbing the youth programs.
Here is how to fix it.
1. All A rosters 15 skaters two goalies and roll the lines and alternate goalies. Develop all of the kids.
2. Find female non parent coaches.
3. Redraft bylaws of each association not to allow girls to cross over and then be willing to stand by the rules. or eliminate the girls program completely and have girls play with boys until bantams.
4. HAVE HIGH SCHOOL COACHES QUIT ROBBING THEIR YOUTH PROGRAMS. ALL OF THE SUCCESSFUL HIGH SCHOOLS DON'T LET JUNIOR HIGH AGE KIDS PLAY VARSITY BEFORE 9TH GRADE.
5. Girls are not boys they are wired different so don't treat them like boys.
6. girls hockey is still in it's infancy promote numbers and get rid of the elite ideas. Edina and NE metro are doing it right full squads at the A level and the kids are developing.
7. Stop all playups. If you don't have the numbers coop with another community.
8. Promote fun and sportsmanship over winning.

Major flaws in your solution
1. cannot predetermine roster #'s since girls hockey #'s are very inconsistent. Every year is different and it's always a #"s game
2. I think as you see girls hockey progress you will see more women step up to the plate and give back to the game.
3. Until girls hockey #'s are strong enough prohibiting girls from crossing over to the boys is completely impossible. Kind of funny this is coming from a guy that his daughter was going to tryout for boys last fall.
4. Again its a #'s game and until the #'s improve this will never change. Some programs don't even have a U14 team because the high school needs the players to fill roster spots. With that being said they don't have much choice. You also see girls coming up are getting better and better each year. Which is typical since girls hockey is still in its infancy. Because of this there are many 7th and 8th grader that are better then many upperclassmen. I have seen plenty of boys play as 8th graders at the varsity level if they are good enough. If you have the talent to play at a higher level why not?
7. Coops are very sticky and I have heard many complaints from associations that have tried it. The only time that I have seen it work good is when the merger is permanent. Like Como/Johnson or Tartan/North St. Paul. When your #'s are up a down every year its hard to commit to a permanent coop.

Clapper you obviously have all the answers and you must know me pretty well and yes I am commenting how an association has been ruined and I believe you have had a hand in it. Your arguments are excuses and yes my daughter was going to play boys until she decided she wanted to play girls.

Zambonidriver

The only reason you feel a certain association is ruined because your daughter was second best and was cut from the A team. So what do you do? Tell your daughter that she was screwed and move her to another association. Nice thing to teach your kid. How about let her deal with disappointment and learn a good life lesson. It's not always going to go your way and learn to deal with it. It's kind of funny that you just don't get it. Your daughter is a talented goalie, but the cancer you and her bring to a team is your demise. I have personally watched your antics on the bench and in the stands. You are all about yourself and your daughter. Your forum you created on who the best 02 goalie in state is a perfect example. If you need to ask questions like that you obviously have issues. I have watched your daughter yell at teammates and quickly start the blame game on how the goal was scored. I have even seen her go so far to skate out to the blue line to yell at her teammates on the far bench after a goal was scored. Is that good sportsmanship, is that being a team player? I think not. Best of luck to you and your daughter. Hopefully one day you figure it out.

[Coachk]

WOW, this is a first I am speechless.

[zambonidriver]

WOW, this is a first I am speechless.

The truth of the matter is that clapper is the girls director of the association that we left if you look at the numbers there are no u-10 teams and no u-8 teams it is true we left the association because of a bogus tryout situation where there were four goalies for three teams and my daughter was not given a fair chane to compete for the job. My daughter is not the only goalie who has moved out of this association they have lost 5 goalies in 1 year and the program top to bottom has been decimated. y daughter has never skate out to the blue line to yell at a kid and she gets along just fine with her teammates now. We have never told her she got screwed we knew this would happen so we were prepared. Whether we move or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is what has been done to the program. BTW when my daughter played against the association you are talking about she played very well and actually was a very good sport and acknowledge not only the other players but the other goalie as well. Though the coaches would not acknowledge that she did a good job. Clapper this was a good discussion of good ideas but you made it personal. You are the one who should grow up.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Me too coachK.

Zamboni I think you lost us when the ideas you put forward for "saving girls hockey" based on your positive experiences on the girls side and the success of your D1 daughters seemed to be mitigated just A BIT when we now find out the truth of your experience and association isn't so yaygirlshockey positive. Every single one of us with a girl in this game, whether the best player or the worst (and mine has been both!) have struggled with all or some of the items on your original problem list. But ya can't come at us with a solution if we don't know honestly what the problem is.

[zambonidriver]

Me too coachK.

Zamboni I think you lost us when the ideas you put forward for "saving girls hockey" based on your positive experiences on the girls side and the success of your D1 daughters seemed to be mitigated just A BIT when we now find out the truth of your experience and association isn't so yaygirlshockey positive. Every single one of us with a girl in this game, whether the best player or the worst (and mine has been both!) have struggled with all or some of the items on your original problem list. But ya can't come at us with a solution if we don't know honestly what the problem is.

I agree this has gotten way out of hand I am sorry

[InigoMontoya]

I thought it was a refreshing change of pace from picking on Edina.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

A very relevant topic, just went WAAAAYYYYY left.
Feel free to start up a new Edina thread Inigo. KIDDING.

[Broke]

Yes, the original topic was a good one. I think Zamboni's ideas are fair points for discussion, although I tend to think they won't work for many of the reasons posted by Clapper. Also, my personal view is that youth hockey is for youths of both genders, and that girls hockey exists as a supplement to serve various purposes. I am not inclined to forcibly split all girls off into their own league.

Regarding the bad blood, I would normally watch from the stands. However, in this case I have a little perspective to throw into the mix -- my daughter plays with Zamboni's daughter. I have no idea what Zamboni did within his prior association and will not take issue with any of Clapper's comments or opinions. However, for what it's worth, Zamboni has been quite pleasant and positive since joining our association.

As for Zamboni's daughter, she is quite passionate about the game and not afraid to share her opinions on the ice. According to my daughter, those opinions are mostly about positioning, vision, etc. It took some getting used to, but on the whole she finds it pretty helpful. Of course, with that passion and drive there have been a couple of "situations" as the girls get used to each other. However, they seem to have worked things out rather well.

Maybe it's only temporary or due to the change in scenery, but so far so good.

[hockeyfan21]

It used to be that goalies were labeled as crazy. The last four years I think have changed that to the goalie parents are crazy, and rightfully so. I don't know where to lay the cause but I tend to think a lot of it has to do with the lack of coaching goalies within associations. This has forced the hand of goalie parents into paying exorbitant amounts of money to goalie schools, who seldom if ever provide real feedback about the goalie or their flaws. Tough to get a parent to fork out a couple thousand dollars a year if they tell you your kid probably doesn't have what it takes to play beyond high school. Alot of these kids and their parents are coming back to their associations and creating waves/holding teams mans levels hostage because they are a good goalie or their level doesn't have many options.

Zamboni I have no idea what association you're in, but based on this thread and the other one you started I think I'm glad you're not in mine. I already have four other goalie parents that come across just like you.

[wbgirlsythhockey]

WOW, this is a first I am speechless.

The truth of the matter is that clapper is the girls director of the association that we left if you look at the numbers there are no u-10 teams and no u-8 teams it is true we left the association because of a bogus tryout situation where there were four goalies for three teams and my daughter was not given a fair chane to compete for the job. My daughter is not the only goalie who has moved out of this association they have lost 5 goalies in 1 year and the program top to bottom has been decimated. y daughter has never skate out to the blue line to yell at a kid and she gets along just fine with her teammates now. We have never told her she got screwed we knew this would happen so we were prepared. Whether we move or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is what has been done to the program. BTW when my daughter played against the association you are talking about she played very well and actually was a very good sport and acknowledge not only the other players but the other goalie as well. Though the coaches would not acknowledge that she did a good job. Clapper this was a good discussion of good ideas but you made it personal. You are the one who should grow up.

Just to chime in here Zamboni, whatever banter has been going on back and forth with whoever Clapper is, isn't the Girls Director from the association you left. I don't get into this type of nonsense. I do however appreciate the feedback!

[Bandy]

1. Large associations are selecting A teams with 10-13 skaters.

Agree that's a bad idea. Associations should split between A & B evenly, to distribute the ice time as equitably among players as possible.

3. Even with smaller teams the benches get shortened.

Agree that's a bad idea. Coaches should strive to distribute the ice time as equitably among players as possible, unless they feel a need to use the bench for disciplinary reasons. But over the course of the season, the ice time should equal out for everyone. We're talking youth hockey, and the emphasis should be on development.

8. Promote fun and sportsmanship over winning.

Agree! I'd add development and equality. Let the varsity & college coaches favor the star players.

[Tigerhockey2012]

I have had three girls play girls hockey and one is in her senior year at a D1 school. My youngest is now playing youth. Here are the changes in girls hockey that I have noticed.
1. Large associations are selecting A teams with 10-13 skaters.
2. Goalie shortages and no goalie development
3. Even with smaller teams the benches get shortened.
4. No female coaches.
5. treating girls like boys.
6. more girls playing on the boys side.
7. High Schools robbing the youth programs.
Here is how to fix it.
1. All A rosters 15 skaters two goalies and roll the lines and alternate goalies. Develop all of the kids.
2. Find female non parent coaches.
3. Redraft bylaws of each association not to allow girls to cross over and then be willing to stand by the rules. or eliminate the girls program completely and have girls play with boys until bantams.
4. HAVE HIGH SCHOOL COACHES QUIT ROBBING THEIR YOUTH PROGRAMS. ALL OF THE SUCCESSFUL HIGH SCHOOLS DON'T LET JUNIOR HIGH AGE KIDS PLAY VARSITY BEFORE 9TH GRADE.
5. Girls are not boys they are wired different so don't treat them like boys.
6. girls hockey is still in it's infancy promote numbers and get rid of the elite ideas. Edina and NE metro are doing it right full squads at the A level and the kids are developing.
7. Stop all playups. If you don't have the numbers coop with another community.
8. Promote fun and sportsmanship over winning.

Jumping in late here. I have to agree with observer, recruiting is the key. A one size fits all solution(s) don't work. You simply can't force people to do what they don't want to do. Additionally some of the things mentioned above just are not feasible.

1. Roster sizes are dictated by the number of kids that come out especially for smaller associations. There are only a handful of associations that have the luxury to manipulate their roster sizes a bit. You need at least three teams worth of girls before you can even think about this option. Example, you have 23 skaters and 2 goalies. What are you going to do make an A team of 15 skaters and two goalies and leave the B team with 8?

2. I've been involved in searches for female non-parent coaches. They are nearly impossible to find. Your daughter will be a hot commodity when she starts coaching. How many teams is she going to cover?

3. I could be wrong here but I do not believe redrafting the by-laws of an association would prevent girls from playing boys. Do the words we will see you in court mean anything to you? I know they do to the associations and hockey is expensive enough already without adding in litigation costs.

4. You say successful what you mean is successful and large. A lot of A schools and even some AA schools don't have a choice, if they are to survive they have to have the younger girls. But you are correct in this respect, sometimes HS coaches take girls that they don't need and that is the wrong thing to do at least in some cases.

5. Agree completely but will take that a step further, not all boys are the same and not all girls are the same.

6. That statement speaks to one size fits all solutions, unfortunately no one else has the luxury of an Edina. They simply have more numbers so they have more options. Recruit, recruit, recruit.

7. Again one size fits all does not work. Say you have a 10U team with 8 girls. Would you move 4 8U's up to complete the team or would you let 5 of the girls quit because they don't want to drive to the next community? You have to gauge the situation ahead of time and do your best to find a solution that works. Moving up may be the only practical solution. But I would agree move ups should be avoided where possible.

8. Agreed.

The only thing that I would add is that when skill discrepancies are too wide, development is hurt. If you have a couple girls that can't skate on the same team as a couple of top end A players, how are each of those sets of players developing? The coach needs to spend an inordinate amount of time working with the low end girls to bring them up to a level you can work with. The high end players lose out on coaching time. They also learn not to pass to a black hole and they learn to play out of position because they have to cover. That doesn't have anything to do with elite. If you can push a girl beyond her comfort zone and she can compete, by all means put her with the so called elite player. But if she has no business being on the same team and simply has no chance, other solutions such as co-ops need to be found.

Remember Roseville has a much different situation than say an association like Litchfield Dassel Cokato.

[Bandy]

In case you missed it. http://www.startribune.com/opinion/comm ... 70061.html

[Cdale]

Latest LPH has good article "Girls Hockey needs help from within". http://www.letsplayhockey.com/online-ed ... ithin.html

[legalbeagle05]

Latest LPH has good article "Girls Hockey needs help from within". http://www.letsplayhockey.com/online-ed ... ithin.html

Best article I've read in LPH in a long, long time. BRAVO! Best point was to stop comparing it to the Boys tourney. Until we stop doing it, it'll always lose. That's like always comparing yourself to Meryl Streep in the Oscar race. COME ON. Not a good idea.

Again, well done Coach Holmes in Farmington!

[hokmom]

Good Article. I have brought my U10 and several of her teammates to the tournament the last two years. They love the idea of getting out of school and have had a blast. And for the record, the parking is MUCH easier!