The Future of Hockey in Duluth Proper - Bold Predictions

[Froggy Richards]

A local Duluth News reporter tweeted today a quote from Bruce Plant today: "This doesn't change what we're doing here. We are comfortable at Class A. People want us to move, tough. This works for us." I dont see Hermantown moving up to AA under the Plante era.

Well, there ya have it from the Horse's mouth. I guess playing one meaningful game each season is working.

[observer]

Why is there more than one youth program past Squirts? Frankly, they should ditch their Squirt dealeo too. Huge mistake at this stage of the game. Should be a single youth association in Duluth. The connections to the high schools is a developmental mistake for youth hockey players in Duluth. Also makes for a lot on unnecessary drama and players playing at the wrong level in both programs.

Single youth program would benefit all players. Isn't that the role of a youth association? Instead the short sighted adults create division.

[Mouse in the corner]

A local Duluth News reporter tweeted today a quote from Bruce Plant today: "This doesn't change what we're doing here. We are comfortable at Class A. People want us to move, tough. This works for us." I dont see Hermantown moving up to AA under the Plante era.

Well, there ya have it from the Horse's mouth. I guess playing one meaningful game each season is working.

'
The problem for them lies in the fact that they lose that game.

[Froggy Richards]

Why is there more than one youth program past Squirts? Frankly, they should ditch their Squirt dealeo too. Huge mistake at this stage of the game. Should be a single youth association in Duluth. The connections to the high schools is a developmental mistake for youth hockey players in Duluth. Also makes for a lot on unnecessary drama and players playing at the wrong level in both programs.

Single youth program would benefit all players. Isn't that the role of a youth association? Instead the short sighted adults create division.

Interesting take. I disagree on the Squirts, but you might be on to something at Peewee and above. Might help to retain some of the players on the West Side if they play with the city's best instead of being locked in to Denfeld. I agree with your point that Youth Hockey should not be viewed as a High School feeder system, but that's pretty much what it's become.

[Mouse in the corner]

I have always sort of wondered if there won't be a co-op between Proctor and Denfeld at some point in time at both the youth and high school levels. Given the distances involved and the inherant bias towards East that seems to exsist up there I don't see them (East) wanting to do anything that will help Denfeld out. I expect to see a Denfeld-Proctor co-op with a new facility out west coupled with East and Hermantown pulling out all of the stops to prevent kids from seeing the benefit of a private education.

[observer]

I disagree on the Squirts,

Teams can still be divided primarily with neighborhood considerations but registration through one single youth association. Working together is better than divided for the strength of hockey in Duluth and the kids. Combined fundraising and leadership makes for more and better teams skating at the right level. Are the girls youth teams doing it effectively?

Not sure what mouse is saying. Organizationally there should be no connection between youth and high school hockey. Youth programs develop all kids without consideration to where they attend, or will attend, school.

[Mouse in the corner]

I disagree on the Squirts,

Teams can still be divided primarily with neighborhood considerations but registration through one single youth association. Working together is better than divided for the strength of hockey in Duluth and the kids. Combined fundraising and leadership makes for more and better teams skating at the right level. Are the girls youth teams doing it effectively?

Not sure what mouse is saying. Organizationally there should be no connection between youth and high school hockey. Youth programs develop all kids without consideration to where they attend, or will attend, school.

The operative word here is "should".

[mnmouth]

A local Duluth News reporter tweeted today a quote from Bruce Plant today: "This doesn't change what we're doing here. We are comfortable at Class A. People want us to move, tough. This works for us." I dont see Hermantown moving up to AA under the Plante era.

Well, there ya have it from the Horse's mouth. I guess playing one meaningful game each season is working.

Last I heard, a coach does not make the decision for a team to move up. Plante surely has power within the Hermantown program, but if admin decides it's time to move up, they move up. If this forces Plante to resign, so what? Plenty of experienced hockey men will line up for a chance to coach a still-burgeoning program.

[TheInsider]

A local Duluth News reporter tweeted today a quote from Bruce Plant today: "This doesn't change what we're doing here. We are comfortable at Class A. People want us to move, tough. This works for us." I dont see Hermantown moving up to AA under the Plante era.

Well, there ya have it from the Horse's mouth. I guess playing one meaningful game each season is working.

Last I heard, a coach does not make the decision for a team to move up. Plante surely has power within the Hermantown program, but if admin decides it's time to move up, they move up. If this forces Plante to resign, so what? Plenty of experienced hockey men will line up for a chance to coach a still-burgeoning program.

I think Plante means a little more to the Hermantown hockey community than you're suggesting... In the eyes of Hermantown hockey folks, I dont think their reaction to Plante resigning would be "so what?"

[mnmouth]

Well, there ya have it from the Horse's mouth. I guess playing one meaningful game each season is working.

Last I heard, a coach does not make the decision for a team to move up. Plante surely has power within the Hermantown program, but if admin decides it's time to move up, they move up. If this forces Plante to resign, so what? Plenty of experienced hockey men will line up for a chance to coach a still-burgeoning program.

I think Plante means a little more to the Hermantown hockey community than you're suggesting... In the eyes of Hermantown hockey folks, I dont think their reaction to Plante resigning would be "so what?"

Of course, he means a lot to that program. But everyone gets replaced at some point. With the resources that HTown has in place, that program will survive and likely continue to flourish when he's gone. The dude ain't Ikola, who also was not irreplaceable.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

I disagree on the Squirts,

Teams can still be divided primarily with neighborhood considerations but registration through one single youth association. Working together is better than divided for the strength of hockey in Duluth and the kids. Combined fundraising and leadership makes for more and better teams skating at the right level. Are the girls youth teams doing it effectively?

Not sure what mouse is saying. Organizationally there should be no connection between youth and high school hockey. Youth programs develop all kids without consideration to where they attend, or will attend, school.

I think all youth hockey up there is under DAHA, even the girls side. I can't speak to effectiveness of the girls side other than to note dramatic drop off in numbers and A level teams this year. What's up?

[pekyman]

I don't understand why all the talk about Hermantown moving up just because Marshall did.
The reason Marshall moved to AA is because Hermantown was placed back into section 7A; simple as that.
I predicted it right after the move. That was a bad day for Marshall Hockey.
If Hermantown was still in section 5A, I would bet the farm that Marshall would have stayed in 7A.
I know the rhetoric is that they want their students and athletes to compete with the best and that is why they chose to move.
That's the way I would play it if I was in Marshall's spot.
I'm not familiar with the Roseau/Warroad situation, but there seems to be some similarities there.
Those 2 teams don't have to face each other and in good years both can compete at the top of AA.

[Froggy Richards]

I don't understand why all the talk about Hermantown moving up just because Marshall did.
The reason Marshall moved to AA is because Hermantown was placed back into section 7A; simple as that.
I predicted it right after the move. That was a bad day for Marshall Hockey.
If Hermantown was still in section 5A, I would bet the farm that Marshall would have stayed in 7A.
I know the rhetoric is that they want their students and athletes to compete with the best and that is why they chose to move.
That's the way I would play it if I was in Marshall's spot.
I'm not familiar with the Roseau/Warroad situation, but there seems to be some similarities there.
Those 2 teams don't have to face each other and in good years both can compete at the top of AA.

That doesn't make any sense. It's going to be a lot harder for them to get to State now than it was in 7A. If simply making it to state was their goal, they would stay in Single A like Hermantown does. They know they would have some years where they would beat Hermantown. They did it because they were becoming irrelevant by staying in A. If you have the program to compete, you step up and play with the big boys. Cloquet and Grand Rapids realized that long ago and now Marshall. Look at this forum for proof. The 7AA thread is one of the most popular on this board. I haven't seen a 7A thread. Whether we like it or not, Single A has become small potatoes.

[pekyman]

I don't understand why all the talk about Hermantown moving up just because Marshall did.
The reason Marshall moved to AA is because Hermantown was placed back into section 7A; simple as that.
I predicted it right after the move. That was a bad day for Marshall Hockey.
If Hermantown was still in section 5A, I would bet the farm that Marshall would have stayed in 7A.
I know the rhetoric is that they want their students and athletes to compete with the best and that is why they chose to move.
That's the way I would play it if I was in Marshall's spot.
I'm not familiar with the Roseau/Warroad situation, but there seems to be some similarities there.
Those 2 teams don't have to face each other and in good years both can compete at the top of AA.

That doesn't make any sense. It's going to be a lot harder for them to get to State now than it was in 7A. If simply making it to state was their goal, they would stay in Single A like Hermantown does. They know they would have some years where they would beat Hermantown. They did it because they were becoming irrelevant by staying in A. If you have the program to compete, you step up and play with the big boys. Cloquet and Grand Rapids realized that long ago and now Marshall. Look at this forum for proof. The 7AA thread is one of the most popular on this board. I haven't seen a 7A thread. Whether we like it or not, Single A has become small potatoes.

Agree to disagree

[MNHockeyFan]

Whether we like it or not, Single A has become small potatoes.

And the main reason why, for me at least, is because so many of the better teams that could be in A have opted up. The Class A tournament would feature a much higher level of hockey if all those teams were still competing in A. BUT, I'm not advocating this for two main reasons:

(a) I generally favor freedom of choice, and I like the idea of giving smaller schools the opportunity to compete at a higher level, and
(b) If schools could not opt up, the Class A tournament field would mostly be a private school tournament, even more so than it is already. While I'm a big proponent of private schools generally, I realize most would strongly object if the tournament regularly consisted of mostly private schools, i.e. STA, H-M, BSM, CDH and HFC in addition to Marshall, Breck, etc.

[pekyman]

I don't understand why all the talk about Hermantown moving up just because Marshall did.
The reason Marshall moved to AA is because Hermantown was placed back into section 7A; simple as that.
I predicted it right after the move. That was a bad day for Marshall Hockey.
If Hermantown was still in section 5A, I would bet the farm that Marshall would have stayed in 7A.
I know the rhetoric is that they want their students and athletes to compete with the best and that is why they chose to move.
That's the way I would play it if I was in Marshall's spot.
I'm not familiar with the Roseau/Warroad situation, but there seems to be some similarities there.
Those 2 teams don't have to face each other and in good years both can compete at the top of AA.

That doesn't make any sense. It's going to be a lot harder for them to get to State now than it was in 7A. If simply making it to state was their goal, they would stay in Single A like Hermantown does. They know they would have some years where they would beat Hermantown. They did it because they were becoming irrelevant by staying in A. If you have the program to compete, you step up and play with the big boys. Cloquet and Grand Rapids realized that long ago and now Marshall. Look at this forum for proof. The 7AA thread is one of the most popular on this board. I haven't seen a 7A thread. Whether we like it or not, Single A has become small potatoes.

Agree to disagree

Could not find the 7AA thread. Must be buried somewhere underneath the 3A thread

[HShockeywatcher]

I don't understand why all the talk about Hermantown moving up just because Marshall did.

It's not. It's why the discussion is happening currently, but this has been discussed by many for years, every year.

Whether we like it or not, Single A has become small potatoes.

And the main reason why, for me at least, is because so many of the better teams that could be in A have opted up. The Class A tournament would feature a much higher level of hockey if all those teams were still competing in A. BUT, I'm not advocating this for two main reasons:

(a) I generally favor freedom of choice, and I like the idea of giving smaller schools the opportunity to compete at a higher level, and
(b) If schools could not opt up, the Class A tournament field would mostly be a private school tournament, even more so than it is already. While I'm a big proponent of private schools generally, I realize most would strongly object if the tournament regularly consisted of mostly private schools, i.e. STA, H-M, BSM, CDH and HFC in addition to Marshall, Breck, etc.

I don't think it would be any more densely concentrated with private schools than it is now. The private schools would be coming out of the same sections they are now, so there'd be a bigger variety of them in Class A and only 1 private school in AA. Plus, with Grand Rapids in up north, there would often be 1 less.

Allowing teams to opt up diminishes the value of the smaller tournament.
The other option, that would solve everything overnight, would be requiring teams to make the playoffs. You'd end up with 1 class. It would be an overhaul of MN sports, one I think would be a positive change. But I doubt it'll happen

[MNHockeyFan]

I don't think it would be any more densely concentrated with private schools than it is now. The private schools would be coming out of the same sections they are now, so there'd be a bigger variety of them in Class A and only 1 private school in AA.

I was referring to just the Class A tournament.

[karl(east)]

Why is there more than one youth program past Squirts? Frankly, they should ditch their Squirt dealeo too. Huge mistake at this stage of the game. Should be a single youth association in Duluth. The connections to the high schools is a developmental mistake for youth hockey players in Duluth. Also makes for a lot on unnecessary drama and players playing at the wrong level in both programs.

Single youth program would benefit all players. Isn't that the role of a youth association? Instead the short sighted adults create division.

I'm curious as to why you think this. Relative to its numbers, Duluth puts out an awful lot of quality talent. I'd think that's an endorsement of the youth system, not a strike against it. The city's hockey numbers have held up relatively well in spite of a dramatic decline in school-aged population since the 1980s. I certainly don't get the sense that there is any more infighting in Duluth than anywhere else.

I also don't think Denfeld is negatively affected by this system at all. Remember, Denfeld has only had its own bantam teams for a couple of years now. Before that, they were sharing bantams with Central under the Lakers banner. (This was a terrible and unequal setup, yes, but it's gone now.) Not so coincidentally, Denfeld has become more of a threat now that they have a youth pipeline they can claim for their own. Yes, there are long-term worries about hockey on the west side, but that has way more to do with demographics than the setup of the youth system.

The squirt system is an institution in Duluth. Kids still get together and replay city championships 10-15 years later. If there is any "purity" left in youth sports, it's found in these neighborhood rink games, still happening outside, and still allowing a large number of kids to play at the highest level in the city, with lots of ice time for everyone. It delays cutthroat hockey, at least for a little while. Mike Randolph is on record thanking Metro youth programs for the way they handle squirts, forcing all the top kids on to one team...he loves it, because he knows he has kids who've had a lot more experience and ice time, and it helps level the playing field, despite numbers disadvantages the Duluth teams face.

The girls' program, which does unite the city, is a mess. Girls' teams in Duluth have never had the success the boys have, which is perplexing. That's a much larger debate, and not one I pretend to know much about, but it's hardly a ringing endorsement for a centralized system. It's an ugly world filled with infighting, and there have been lots of defections out of it.

Why try to fix something that isn't broken? It might not be for everyone, but it works awfully well for Duluth. The numbers in terms of post-HS success (from both sides of the city, and from the private school that draws talent from both sides) speak for themselves.

[HShockeywatcher]

I don't think it would be any more densely concentrated with private schools than it is now. The private schools would be coming out of the same sections they are now, so there'd be a bigger variety of them in Class A and only 1 private school in AA.

I was referring to just the Class A tournament.

I understand.
There may be more private schools playing in all of the section tournaments, but there wouldn't be more going to state. There are currently 5 sections where private schools get to state (sometimes 1, 2, sometimes 4, sometimes 6, sometimes 7) on a regular basis. You'd likely see a rotation of private schools, but with current AA public schools that are usually good in A, I doubt they'd dominate.
You could make arguments either direction about how much "being AA" would matter as a recruiting tool at that point.

Or, like I've said, just have one tournament you have to qualify for and all is solved.

[MNHockeyFan]

I understand.
There may be more private schools playing in all of the section tournaments, but there wouldn't be more going to state. There are currently 5 sections where private schools get to state (sometimes 1, 2, sometimes 4, sometimes 6, sometimes 7) on a regular basis. You'd likely see a rotation of private schools, but with current AA public schools that are usually good in A, I doubt they'd dominate.

I know what you're saying, but again imagine that schools could not opt up and the impact this would have on the A tourney. In some years you could easily have private schools representing 6 out of the 8 sections:
1A - Rochester Lourdes
2A - Breck, Blake or Holy Angels
3A - St. Thomas Academy
4A - Hill-Murray
5A - public
6A - Benilde-St. Margaret's or Holy Family Catholic
7A - Duluth Marshall
8A - public

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the Duluth thread, now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[Just Checking]

3. Hermantown - Stays in Single A and continues their cake walk into the State tournament for the next few years. Slowly but surely, they start losing kids to Marshall and the Self Perceived notion of Hermantown utopia starts to wear off. Like East, their Peewee and Bantam AA teams are unranked. They could have some down years until all of the youth transfers from Piedmont, GMP and Proctor come of age. (Assuming they don't go to Marshall while continuing to chase the dream.) They finally make the jump to AA after 3-4 years, but will it be too late?

This is one that has made the least sense to me. With as good as Hermantown has been, there'd be zero chance they'd be worse in AA.
You'd have to think that at least one person who's at one of the other schools in the area would've ended up there instead, plus it'd be a huge recruiting tool over Marshall.

There's no doubt they could compete in 7AA this year, and in many recent years. With Marshall moving up, any chance they do too?
Or any other teams for that matter?

You're right, it doesn't make any sense. From talking to people in Hermantown over the last couple of years, there seems to be a feeling that it's inevitable at some point. They're not dumb over there, they know how it looks to play and compete with the big boys in AA at PeeWee and Bantam and then dropping down in High School, while scheduling AA teams and competing very well against them. It makes it look like they're chasing trophys. Some people like it, as there are some Hermantowners who think they're the Edina of the North and have a God Given right to Superiority. But it's my feeling that the real Hockey people over there realize it makes no sense to stay in A. So here is my theory....

It's been speculated that Bruce Plante does not want to go AA. I don't know if this is true. He has been asked that question in interviews and he uncharacteristically kind of dodged it and gave a half answer. If I remember correctly, it was something like, "Well, that may be something we look at in the next few years." He has a reputation for telling it like it is and that's what people love about him, so I was a little disappointed in the answer. If it is true, then you can bet that nobody in Hermantown will push it. Bruce is as loved and revered by his community and school as any coach in the State and he's one of the truly great guys in the game.

Karl has touched on the differences between A and AA in past posts and how things change once you go AA. All of a sudden coaches are open to more scrutiny, more complaints, more politics. Heck, even Randolph got pushed out at East. Bruce has said in the past that he tells the parents every year that as soon as he gets any complaints or pushback he is gone. If he says that, he means it. So it would make sense that there hasn't been more of a push for going AA in Hermantown.

However, that being said, NTMH makes a great point. If they don't move up now, they basically become the new STA, the team that they and Bruce railed about for years. Now that Marshall has moved up, I think Hermantown's hand has been forced.

Not sure if this cut and paste from You tube will work, but if it does you can skip to the 8:45 mark and see Bruce Plante's comments on moving up to AA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsH_Wk5xEy4

[northwoods oldtimer]

I don't understand why all the talk about Hermantown moving up just because Marshall did.
The reason Marshall moved to AA is because Hermantown was placed back into section 7A; simple as that.
I predicted it right after the move. That was a bad day for Marshall Hockey.
If Hermantown was still in section 5A, I would bet the farm that Marshall would have stayed in 7A.
I know the rhetoric is that they want their students and athletes to compete with the best and that is why they chose to move.
That's the way I would play it if I was in Marshall's spot.
I'm not familiar with the Roseau/Warroad situation, but there seems to be some similarities there.
Those 2 teams don't have to face each other and in good years both can compete at the top of AA.

That doesn't make any sense. It's going to be a lot harder for them to get to State now than it was in 7A. If simply making it to state was their goal, they would stay in Single A like Hermantown does. They know they would have some years where they would beat Hermantown. They did it because they were becoming irrelevant by staying in A. If you have the program to compete, you step up and play with the big boys. Cloquet and Grand Rapids realized that long ago and now Marshall. Look at this forum for proof. The 7AA thread is one of the most popular on this board. I haven't seen a 7A thread. Whether we like it or not, Single A has become small potatoes.

Agree Froggy Richards.
Hermantown move up to AA!

[TheHockeyDJ]

I don't understand why all the talk about Hermantown moving up just because Marshall did.
The reason Marshall moved to AA is because Hermantown was placed back into section 7A; simple as that.
I predicted it right after the move. That was a bad day for Marshall Hockey.
If Hermantown was still in section 5A, I would bet the farm that Marshall would have stayed in 7A.
I know the rhetoric is that they want their students and athletes to compete with the best and that is why they chose to move.
That's the way I would play it if I was in Marshall's spot.
I'm not familiar with the Roseau/Warroad situation, but there seems to be some similarities there.
Those 2 teams don't have to face each other and in good years both can compete at the top of AA.

That doesn't make any sense. It's going to be a lot harder for them to get to State now than it was in 7A. If simply making it to state was their goal, they would stay in Single A like Hermantown does. They know they would have some years where they would beat Hermantown. They did it because they were becoming irrelevant by staying in A. If you have the program to compete, you step up and play with the big boys. Cloquet and Grand Rapids realized that long ago and now Marshall. Look at this forum for proof. The 7AA thread is one of the most popular on this board. I haven't seen a 7A thread. Whether we like it or not, Single A has become small potatoes.

Agree Froggy Richards.
Hermantown move up to AA!

Go to the state tourney, playing in front of 19,000 fans is better than 8,000 fans and an empty club/upper level. I enjoy watching the class A games while I'm there, but class AA is the big show! Hermantown is just playing for the toilet bowl trophy along with Warroad and EGF. Big fish in small pond syndrome.

[Hard water fan]

Marshall opted up for one reason only: They have lost players and supporters ($) and are now having a very difficult time recruiting students (players). By opting up, they are buying some time with the hopes that local talent will make the switch. Eventually they will go Tier 1. They have the facilities, the location, parents/supporters who want it...and the money.
I'll guess by 2017/18...

Duluth will be fine on the boys side. Girls are in a clockwise spiral down. Kids quitting (lost 2 of their captains last week), youth program is a shadow of itself from 5 years ago. Sad times for girls hockey in Duluth.

Denfeld has a strong coach with a lunch bucket mentality that will keep the interest level high for the youth in the non-East neighborhoods. They have carved out a place that should keep them competitive...to a degree.

Hermantown has strong youth numbers for both girls and boys... Probably the best in the region. Very healthy from top to bottom. They will be fine regardless if A or AA.

Proctor desperately needs new facilities. Girl's coop with Hermantown, so it's the boys that will continue to struggle until they get a new rink.