Park Center, Osseo, & TriCity became 1 team now

[SEhockeyDAD]

Thanks for setting us straight. I'm most sorry to hear about the declining participation at Park. It was only a few years ago when Brooklyn Park was beating the Rochester U12's at the regional tournament. I'd have thought Park Centers future was pretty bright at that time. Hope they have a good year.

[Butch Horner]

I haven't heard any smart mouthed come backs from hockeywild7. Cat got your tongue?

[hockeywild7]

Good luck to your daughter.

[Butch Horner]

Thank you for the "kind" words.

[ghshockeyfan]

ttt

[MNHockeyFan]

http://www.startribune.com/526/story/1023686.html

[boblee]

Butch, it was great to finally get to see your daughter play. She will fit in wonderfully at Darmouth

[ghshockeyfan]

http://www.startribune.com/526/story/1023686.html

I disagree with this view of co-ops. They are needed to keep the sport viable while HOPEFULLY much recruiting is done at the youngest levels. The "if you build it" days are over. We have to find ways to creatively maintain the sport in communities that haven't been able to sustain teams.

http://www.startribune.com/526/story/1014761.html

New North Metro co-op skates to sudden success
Five months ago, 36 girls' hockey players from five schools weren't even sure they would have a team. Now they are going to the state tournament.
By Kelsie Smith, Star Tribune
Last update: February 21, 2007 – 7:28 AM


Alecia Anderson
Alecia Anderson, shown trying to make a pass during North Metro’s practice session Tuesday at Osseo Arena, said it took some time to feel comfortable with her new teammates. “It was kind of cliquey at first,” she said.

Jeff Wheeler , Star Tribune


Katie Horner
Katie Horner and her North Metro teammates make their debut in the girls’ hockey state tournament Thursday against Burnsville in the Class 2A quarterfinals.
Jeff Wheeler , Star Tribune

One month before the high school girls' hockey season began, Katie Horner and Alecia Anderson waited for some news. The Park Center seniors were all set to play in college -- Horner at Dartmouth, Anderson at St. Cloud State.
The only thing left to figure out? Where they would play their final high school season. Only three weeks before the season started, they got their answer when the Minnesota State High School League approved the North Metro co-op, made up of Park Center, Osseo and Tri-City (Fridley, Columbia Heights and Brooklyn Center).

That was five months ago. Thursday, North Metro makes its state tournament debut.

The odds of a newly minted team making it so far seem nearly impossible, even to North Metro coach Jack Gravel.

"If you'd have bet me at the beginning of the season that we'd make it to state," Gravel said, "you could have won some money off me."

Gravel had previously coached at Benilde-St. Margaret's, where he led the Red Knights to the Class 1A title in 2004.

Now, he said, all bets are off, even if North Metro (17-7-3) is the underdog in a field of underdogs. That's a label these girls are used to. They come from programs where a good season meant a .500 record, and before this year, none of them had played in the state tournament.

So imagine what they expected in the second game of the year, when they took on perennial power Centennial after losing 4-1 to Coon Rapids in the season opener. And imagine their excitement and, well, surprise when they won 6-2.

Gravel remembers sitting in the locker room with a 4-1 lead after the second period and hearing everyone say the same thing: "We've never been ahead of Centennial before."

Games like that get a team excited and breed hope. And they breed complaints, like all successful co-ops do.

Each year, the MSHSL reevaluates co-ops and disbands them if the program has become too strong. That means North Metro's quick success might actually work against it.

It seems unlikely, though, that the MSHSL would break up this new co-op so soon. If it hadn't formed in October, only Park Center could have scraped together a team. As it is, North Metro drew only 36 girls from the five schools. The playoff roster has 11 girls from Park Center, six from Osseo, two from Brooklyn Center and one from Fridley.

It took some time, Gravel said, for the girls to get comfortable with each other. The Stars went 7-4-2 through December before stringing together a seven-game winning streak in January.

"It was kind of cliquey at first," Anderson said. "But since the halfway point of the season, everyone knows each other really well and those cliques started to break apart. Now, it's fun to play with other people from different high schools."

Thursday, the patchwork team meets Burnsville in the quarterfinals of the Class 2A tournament at Xcel Energy Center.

Horner said no matter how the season ends, she will be sad when it's over.

"It's about the game and playing hockey," she said. "We don't have open enrollments with big-name transfers coming in like other schools. These are just girls going to their designated school who just want to play hockey."


Kelsie Smith •

[MNHockeyFan]

http://www.startribune.com/526/story/1023686.html

I disagree with this view of co-ops. They are needed to keep the sport viable while HOPEFULLY much recruiting is done at the youngest levels. The "if you build it" days are over. We have to find ways to creatively maintain the sport in communities that haven't been able to sustain teams.

I'm in agreement with you as well - I just posted it to stir the pot a bit, plus we were talking about coops here.

Since coops such as North Metro are obviously allowed, I guess the question then becomes under what circumstances SHOULD they be allowed, and at what point should they be forced to disband, if that's the right term? For disbanding should it be measured on expected raw numbers trying out, no matter what the quality, or on some measure of past success?

Using North Metro's situation, let's say two years from now a total of 55 girls were expected to try out from the 5 schools, but 30 of them were from Park Center. Should Park Center then be required to have their own team, and the other 4 allowed to stay together as one? I could see where the coach would want to be able to pick from all 55, or as many as possible for that matter, but then that WOULD prevent many girls from being able to participate, which is supposed to be one of the goals...

Please note: This is a hypothetical situation used for discussion purposes only, and is not meant to pick on North Metro, or forecast their future! But just what are the guidelines that are used with this, or are there any hard and fast rules, and if so are they applied consistently?

[ghshockeyfan]

Since coops such as North Metro are obviously allowed, I guess the question then becomes under what circumstances SHOULD they be allowed, and at what point should they be forced to disband, if that's the right term? For disbanding should it be measured on expected raw numbers trying out, no matter what the quality, or on some measure of past success?

Using North Metro's situation, let's say two years from now a total of 55 girls were expected to try out from the 5 schools, but 30 of them were from Park Center. Should Park Center then be required to have their own team, and the other 4 allowed to stay together as one? I could see where the coach would want to be able to pick from all 55, or as many as possible for that matter, but then that WOULD prevent many girls from being able to participate, which is supposed to be one of the goals...

Please note: This is a hypothetical situation used for discussion purposes only, and is not meant to pick on North Metro, or forecast their future! But just what are the guidelines that are used with this, or are there any hard and fast rules, and if so are they applied consistently?

Here's a hypothetical - what if there just happened to be 3 girls in each of 5 communities/HS's that had no HS team to play on in their home HS. Should they not be able to form a co-op to field a team? Does your answer change if just by chance they happen to be decent players? It shouldn't!!!

That aside, I would think that once you get to 40+ you need to consider if you can field individual teams... but, what if there is no easy logical way to break up the teams/schools? I mean, if any one or two or three of them could stand alone, then by all means, but if not - OR, if it appears that you're uncertain at all that any permutation could stand alone for certain - OR, if it appears that after one season they likely won't be able to stand alone - then you need a co-op indefinitely.

Remember, indefinitely roughly means "an unspecified period of time" - not "forever!"

Co-ops aren't about being competitive, it's about being able to put a team on the ice. We only care about them being competitive when they are OK. I didn't see people going wild when the St. Paul Blades won 20+ games last year, but we sure went nuts when NMS did what they did this season! Funny how that works isn't it?!?!?

[Goalie35]

People did go nuts early in the season and all over the NWSC. What happens if anoka joins with coon rapids next year? Anoka is losing 2 senior, both forwards, and coon rapids is losing almost everyone except bona. Anoka played with a JV team with basically all 7th and 8th graders, all U14 eligible. And coon rapids will be short on playing numbers. Why doesnt everyone just co-op? The teams will be deeper is that what we want or are we looking for the pride growing up and playing for your own high school team? The North Metro co-op drew attention from the beginning but now it's state wide. I hope the MSHSL gets smart and splits this co-op down to reasonable numbers once again

[ghshockeyfan]

People did go nuts early in the season and all over the NWSC. What happens if anoka joins with coon rapids next year? Anoka is losing 2 senior, both forwards, and coon rapids is losing almost everyone except bona. Anoka played with a JV team with basically all 7th and 8th graders, all U14 eligible. And coon rapids will be short on playing numbers. Why doesnt everyone just co-op? The teams will be deeper is that what we want or are we looking for the pride growing up and playing for your own high school team? The North Metro co-op drew attention from the beginning but now it's state wide. I hope the MSHSL gets smart and splits this co-op down to reasonable numbers once again

I think the reason that people have problems with co-ops is that they CAN be successful. Otherwise, they really don't care and usually wish that those "unwanted" kids would just go away.

Now, we have a problem. The problem is that this co-op was too good too soon. What will happen after #15 & #20 graduate this season? Are there other seniors on the NMS roster? What will the team look like for 07-08 and beyond??? These are important questions and should really be the focus of any inquiry into ANY co-op. It's not about winning or losing people, it's instead about offering the sport to kids so they can participate. Had this co-op not been created, there would have been kids with no option to play hockey while attending their home HS. Do not forget this FACT when we're bashing co-ops.

Initially I was anti-NMS as I didn't know the exact #'s and thought that it may be too big, etc. Then, I saw that the demographics and numbers are exactly in line with when this is an ideal co-op scenario. I spoke with many other coaches about this when it first happened, and mixed emotions were common in the feedback I heard.

As to Anoka & CR, by all means they should consider a co-op if they truly don't have the numbers to field teams next season. Only the people with the true numbers as to players though can answer that question. Do a head count, talk to the youth assn., and see where things are at. The bigger question I have is this: Are the demographics in Anoka & CR the same as those for the NMS communities? Is there any reason to believe that Anoka & CR should be better/worse off hockey participation wise? What factors are contributing to this? What can be done to alter this path moving forward (low numbers)? Has anything been done to recruit at the lowest youth levels? Has any effort been made to use recent trips to state as recruiting tools in these communities?

That all aside, I realize that state appearances 6-7-8 years ago may not be as valuable in recruitment now as the could be if it was the last few years. Either way, youth level recruitment is a long-term solution that won't solve anything for 7-10 years. In the interim maybe more co-ops are needed so that we're fielding predominantly HS aged player populated HS JV & V teams (with an occasional young phenom involved) instead of year after year of sub-HS level players populating HS teams to continue to make too many HS teams viable.

My suggestion would be that any community that can't put A & B level teams on the ice for 10's & 12's and at least 1 14 level team, should be talking co-op at the youth levels with neighboring communities to ensure they can moving forward AND they too may want to look at their HS numbers to see if maybe a co-op at that level wouldn't be good to start to stabilize the youth ranks.

We forget that part of the reason that many don't start hockey in the first place is the bad that they hear about the sport. I've heard that many may be willing to pay the huge amount to play, but that some young parents hear that "there are years that we don't have teams to play on" etc. or that a select few girls may have to play with the boys, etc. This is not good for the sport, nor conducive to building it in general.

Co-ops solve that problem at youth & HS.

What I really hope is that co-ops are talked about more, and that the rationale becomes more clearly understood. Ironically, NMS may help bring this issue out more as a viable option and something that more communities should be considering if the numbers just haven't filled in at the youth levels below the top-heavy large # of HS teams.

Lastly, with any co-op that is approved, I would hope that one stipulation would be some level of youth recruitment for all the communities involved so that one day there may be enough players to dissolve the co-op.

[Bensonmum]

Being an old fan of the St.Paul Blades and St.Paul Saints, I support North Metro's right to exist 100%, especially after learning all the facts. I really can't believe that any schools would co-op just to become a powerhouse if that meant that they had lots of girls who wouldn't get a chance to play because the numbers were too high after the merger. I'd give the co-oping schools the benefit of the doubt that they're doing what's best for the kids and the program at the same time, as ghs has explained.

Butch, this weekend was the first time I'd seen your daughter play--she's a heckuva player. I didn't realize she was headed to Dartmouth. You're going to have to watch your manners to fit in with the other Ivy League parents

[SEhockeyDAD]

Now might be a good time to re-visit the Rochester co-op melee and compare that to the NMS co-op situation.

Section 1AA and the Big 9 conference forced Rochester to discontinue its co-ops of Mayo/Lourdes and JM/Century. (They cited the JM/Century co-op as the problem as both were AA schools, though its thought that the real intention was to remove the Lourdes players from the Mayo team.) What it accomplished was destroying the Rochester U14 progam for at least 2 years and nearly leaving Century players without a team at all, though they were able to form a team with the addition of many first-time-ever hockey players. Also, in the end, Mayo still went undefeated in the Big 9 and won section 1AA.

Which situation was/is closer to the correct way of joining programs? If you believe that the Rochester co-ops forced split was too distructive and hurtful, then maybe you should see the NMS co-op as a necessary solution. If, however, you believe that the NMS co-op was too successful, then you should probably think that the forced split of the Rochester co-ops was the right thing to do. Or maybe they're two different situations with little common ground.

More likely, the timing of the moves to co-op or split was just off, both too soon.

In any case, there's one more factor that might be most underrated in this discussion; the Jack Gravel factor. Without him, we may not have been so concerned about the NMS.

[ghshockeyfan]

http://www.startribune.com/142/story/1168872.html

Success will mean more scrutiny for five-school co-op
The North Metro Stars girls' hockey team nearly won a state title last year, and that might make it more difficult for them to make a case that their arrangement is needed.

By David La Vaque, Star Tribune

Last update: May 08, 2007 – 1:22 PM

The North Metro girls' hockey program might find last season's success resulting in greater scrutiny this season as the five-school co-op lobbies for permission to exist at least one more year.
The Stars, made up of players from Brooklyn Center, Columbia Heights, Fridley, Osseo and Park Center high schools, made their debut last season and surprised the hockey community with their runner-up finish at the Class 2A state tournament.

The co-op ensured playing opportunities for students at Osseo High School and the players at Tri-City, which was a co-op of Brooklyn Center, Columbia Heights and Fridley high schools. Both programs would have folded because there were not enough players.

But combining all five metro-area high schools might have overcorrected the problem. North Metro finished the season with 36 players on the varsity and junior varsity roster, numbers that would make most programs envious.

North Metro received unanimous support from Northwest Suburban Conference principals and activities directors, a big factor in the Minnesota State High School League's decision to approve the co-op for one season. North Metro will seek similar support sometime in the next few months as it lobbies the MSHSL for permission to continue the co-op.

Coon Rapids activities director Kelley Scott, hired after the conference activities directors and principals approved the co-op, said North Metro's success warrants more discussion. The Cardinals, runners-up in the 2006 state tournament, lost to the Stars in the Class 2A, Section 4 final this season.

"Not to fault the people here before me, but I think there was more trust than research," he said.

Park Center activities director Larry Lawler, who oversees the North Metro boys' and girls' teams, said the girls' team will see a "drastic" reduction in its numbers. He projects about 20 to 25 players on next season's roster.

"We believe the justification is there to do this again," he said. "Last season's numbers were probably the most we'll ever have."

North Metro's numbers would have been greater if seventh- and eighth-graders were allowed to try out. With a full varsity and junior varsity roster, Lawler "didn't want a seventh-grader to make the team and take away a spot from a junior or senior."

Only goaltenders in the seventh and eighth grades were allowed to try out, including state tournament starter Kayla Kreuter, an eighth-grader from Brooklyn Center.

Scott acknowledged that, based on numbers, North Metro's "co-op is going to be needed much more than last year," but added that his Coon Rapids program is in a similar fix.

"We're going to struggle to put both junior varsity and varsity teams on the ice," he said. "And they will be small in numbers and size because we have to pull up seventh- and eighth-graders to make it work. I think we would be justified doing a co-op. But I don't believe in that. It means we're giving in rather than attacking the problem."


David La Vaque • 612-673-7574 • dlavaque@startribune.com

[SEMetro]

IMO the Coon Rapids AD sounds petty. His team finished with a better conference record that NMS - and in the 3 games that NMS and CR played the collective score was 6 to 6. Sounds like two even teams - one got the breaks in a section final game.

If NMS would have lost in sections - I doubt anyone would care if they cooped again.

Also, isn't Grand Rapids a coop? I could be wrong on that. If so, I wonder why more people aren't bent out of shape on that team.

[twowayplay]

I have no problem with the NM CO-OP but do agree with Kelley that the MSHSL makes decisions more on what people tell them rather than gaining the facts. Kind of like the whole Transfer thing (not to bring up a worn out subject).

Also, were'nt some of CR's stars from other districts? Kind of ironic that transfers are ok but CO-OPS not

Hummm

[SEMetro]

The problem is - the NMS numbers fit a coop - 36 players = 1 jv 1 varsity. No one disputes that information.

So what more information is the Coon Rapids AD looking for? Some guarantee that the 36 players won't be good enough to beat his team?

[ghshockeyfan]

I think the reason that people have problems with co-ops is that they CAN be successful. Otherwise, they really don't care and usually wish that those "unwanted" kids would just go away.

Now, we have a problem. The problem is that this co-op was too good too soon. What will happen after #15 & #20 graduate this season? Are there other seniors on the NMS roster? What will the team look like for 07-08 and beyond??? These are important questions and should really be the focus of any inquiry into ANY co-op. It's not about winning or losing people, it's instead about offering the sport to kids so they can participate. Had this co-op not been created, there would have been kids with no option to play hockey while attending their home HS. Do not forget this FACT when we're bashing co-ops.

Initially I was anti-NMS as I didn't know the exact #'s and thought that it may be too big, etc. Then, I saw that the demographics and numbers are exactly in line with when this is an ideal co-op scenario. I spoke with many other coaches about this when it first happened, and mixed emotions were common in the feedback I heard.

[Purehockey]

Just for your information I looked up Coon Rapids roster. Last year they had a total of 27 players for Vasity and JV. They had 8 seniors, 5 Juniors, 4 sophmores, 3 9th graders, 4 8th graders, and 3 7th graders. So for next years team they will have 19 players for Varsity and JV unless a couple more 7th graders come up..Which still wont be enough to have a varsity and a JV team.

[SEMetro]

Maybe CR should look to combo its JV like a few teams in the south metro. Too many kids for one varsity team - not enough kids to fill two rosters absent some new O/E transfers.

[hock999]

maybe CR should get to combine with four other schools because if all they did was allow JVs to combine their varsity team wouldnt have that one goalie and a couple of D they need? High school Leage has already done it, why not do it again

[SEMetro]

CR's youth hockey website says that it has 2 U12 (and 2 U10) teams on its own? Plenty of associations wish they had those numbers. Unless I'm missing something - that would mean about 22-28 skaters in (next year's) grades 7 and 8 alone.

[Goldy Gopher]

maybe CR should get to combine with four other schools because if all they did was allow JVs to combine their varsity team wouldnt have that one goalie and a couple of D they need? High school Leage has already done it, why not do it again

Sounds like someone's a little bitter.