Thems fighten wordswtbearlk1111 wrote:Would think the Top ten B Teams
would give AL a great Game.
](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall"){kind=small}
Ideas for Minnesota Hockey
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
Good Point
wtbearlk1111, I would agree with you wholeheartidly on that. The top 10 B team's in the state come from program's with outstanding number's. Like I said, unless you only want 12 or 15 A team's in the entire state then it is what it is.
JACKSTRAW. Please don't make excuses all the time to clear the air. I don't care how many kids you have to pick from. You can have 80 kids at the tryouts or you can only have 40 kids at tryouts. It's all about your talent pool, not how many players sign up. A good example is goalies. It only takes 2 good goalies, I don't care if 10 are trying out. You always try and compare yourself to look good and make excuses. Tunnel vison will get you know where.
Number's
Here you go again bashing away. You don't think number's play a role in the success of a youth hockey program? Look at the top program's year in and year out. They have more athlete's to pick from. With very few exception's, it is alway's the huge program's on top. Good for them, I have no problem or so-called tunnel vision about that. They are very fun team's to watch and it is some of the best hockey you could ever see. No excuses here. I have a very firm grasp on where our program stand's. When we can beat or have very good games with some of those other Metro team's or some other out state good program's then I feel very comfortable playing at the A level and the kid's have a great time.
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wannagototherink
- Posts: 312
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:20 am
BS
I get so sick of hearing "we just don't have the numbers"... Thats garbage, last time I looked Roseau wasn't loaded with numbers, yet, year in and year out they are one of the top programs. Now here is not the point where someone comes back with, "well that is one program out of how many" That is not a response that is an excuse. The fact is you don't need a large quantity of players, if you take the ones you have, treat them right, develope them right way, and that way you can take a program that does not have a large amount of numbers and still put out a quality hockey program.
Grand Rapids, another program that year after year are competitve they don't have 80 kids trying out, Duluth East, everyone talks about them being a HUGE program...they had 30 bantams tryout this year.
Don't give me your sob-stories about how we can't compete because we don't have the numbers, do the right thing with the ones you have. Don't cater to what parents want, do what is right, if the parents don't like it, it's their problem.
Grand Rapids, another program that year after year are competitve they don't have 80 kids trying out, Duluth East, everyone talks about them being a HUGE program...they had 30 bantams tryout this year.
Don't give me your sob-stories about how we can't compete because we don't have the numbers, do the right thing with the ones you have. Don't cater to what parents want, do what is right, if the parents don't like it, it's their problem.
"I've never seen a dumb-bell score a goal!" ~Gretter
numbers
I agree with your overall view wannagotherink. But you cannot argue that having larger numbers increases your chance for a higher quality team year after year. This is especially true at the B leavel where many smaller associations might not even cut any players.
But you need to develop what you have!!!! If you make excuses as coaches or parents your players will pick up on that.
But you need to develop what you have!!!! If you make excuses as coaches or parents your players will pick up on that.
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54fighting
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:05 pm
- Location: The sin bin
Numbers
Numbers can be looked at alot of different ways. They are only a part of the puzzle.
No one can deny that numbers play a huge role in a programs sucsess. Not only do you have more kids to pick from the level of competition within the association itself will push the kids to get better. They know if they do not work hard both during the season and do something in the summer, there will be 15 kids ready to take their spot. In a small association that is not the case.
The other issue with numbers is what group are you numbers coming from. I would be willing to bet that in the small associations metioned in the previous post, all northern towns with strong traditions, most if not all of the top athletes are playing hockey. They grew up watching it and their parents and grandparents grew up watching it. That is not the case in small outer ring suburbs. They are not old enough to have tradition. Name me that last metro association with 30 or less peewees that made a state tournament. Very rare. Not impossible but much more difficult than it is in a place like Grand Rapids or Roseau. It is not fair to compare an association like St Francis or Princeton to Duluth East.
No one can deny that numbers play a huge role in a programs sucsess. Not only do you have more kids to pick from the level of competition within the association itself will push the kids to get better. They know if they do not work hard both during the season and do something in the summer, there will be 15 kids ready to take their spot. In a small association that is not the case.
The other issue with numbers is what group are you numbers coming from. I would be willing to bet that in the small associations metioned in the previous post, all northern towns with strong traditions, most if not all of the top athletes are playing hockey. They grew up watching it and their parents and grandparents grew up watching it. That is not the case in small outer ring suburbs. They are not old enough to have tradition. Name me that last metro association with 30 or less peewees that made a state tournament. Very rare. Not impossible but much more difficult than it is in a place like Grand Rapids or Roseau. It is not fair to compare an association like St Francis or Princeton to Duluth East.
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Johnsonpres
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:28 pm
You look at a place like Johnson we have a long tradition but our numbers keep getting less plus we keep it affordable at around $450. We have people still come in and ask for waivers to go to another association in the district to play "B" hockey. We had 44 Pee Wee's this year which leaves 16 on the "A" team and 14 on each the "B" and "C" and we are expected to compete. Our tradition is great but it does not give us more hockey players, They move to the suburbs. We had a Bantam "A" team win the state tournament when we had less than 30 kids but that was over 10 yrs. ago. We work hard at trying to develop players, we have summer camps, Acceleration Minnesota and as much ice if not more than 90% of the teams around but you can't make a Gretzky out nothing numbers are the key. Out of the 44 pee wee's we may have 10 athletes.
So is "we don't have the numbers" a euphamism for something? And if so what? Does it mean, our coaches couldn't figure out how to win with a team of Gretzkys? Or, the association hasn't changed in 20 years and still ascribes to-- if it ain't broke, don't fix it? Or maybe, our population base has changed and we can't figure out how to get black, asian, or latino kids interested in playing on our C team? Or maybe it means that hockey has gotten out of reach costwise for a lot of families. I suppose others might just say it because they heard it from someone else and it seemed better than trying to figure out the basis for why the "numbers are down."
Shuck the puck!!!
Here's an idea for you Elliott; try and do an exit survey or something along those lines. Since every kid is resitered you guys at Mn Hockey should have names, addresses, and phone numbers for most of the players in the state. Find the ones that don't sign up the next year and try and find out why. (Both the players and parents since they often have a differing opinion) I had some experiance with this in youth football and most people were willing to talk, it ended up leading to some minor changes that were first of thought of as bad, but since our numbers are increasing and retention is up I think we made some good changes. We also always have an end of the year survey that people can and do fill out.
I realize that this would probably be better at the association level, but in football we were the highest level, no state board above us so all complaints and compliments went through us, where as you guys are seen as more impartial than the local association and my guess is people would be more willing to talk.
I realize that this would probably be better at the association level, but in football we were the highest level, no state board above us so all complaints and compliments went through us, where as you guys are seen as more impartial than the local association and my guess is people would be more willing to talk.
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gopherhockey33
- Posts: 1029
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:30 pm
goldy,
at some point in time we have to say:"Here it is, this is our hockey program, we put a lot of thought and work into it , and we have had way more discussion about it than ought to be necessary" "If you wanna play great, if not , goodbye and good luck. "
Alot of people quit because hockey it is what it is and they dont like it. There have been some good suggestion here but with the exception of making it cheaper, nothing is going to bring people in nor retain them.
Hockey will never be affordable to some. Even the least expensive programs are still too expensive for some. If it cost $900 and you cut it to $450, you would still eliminate a whole lot of folks. Especially those with larger families.
at some point in time we have to say:"Here it is, this is our hockey program, we put a lot of thought and work into it , and we have had way more discussion about it than ought to be necessary" "If you wanna play great, if not , goodbye and good luck. "
Alot of people quit because hockey it is what it is and they dont like it. There have been some good suggestion here but with the exception of making it cheaper, nothing is going to bring people in nor retain them.
Hockey will never be affordable to some. Even the least expensive programs are still too expensive for some. If it cost $900 and you cut it to $450, you would still eliminate a whole lot of folks. Especially those with larger families.
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Neutron 14
- Posts: 5339
- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:48 pm
I would think that if your measuring stick for a successful program is...
1. Trips to the state tourney
2. Banners hanging from the rafters
You people are a large part of the problem.
A successful program is one that is simply fun to be a part of. It grows naturally, maintaining or increasing the percentage of kids available. It's parental expectations that screw things up. We need to stop looking at our squirts as D1 prospects. They're kids playing a game.
Game of "Shinny" anyone? Sticks in!
1. Trips to the state tourney
2. Banners hanging from the rafters
You people are a large part of the problem.
A successful program is one that is simply fun to be a part of. It grows naturally, maintaining or increasing the percentage of kids available. It's parental expectations that screw things up. We need to stop looking at our squirts as D1 prospects. They're kids playing a game.
Game of "Shinny" anyone? Sticks in!
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Charliedog
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:55 pm
I agree that the cost is a significant deterrent for most families, but I think the greater issues are misinformation, lack of time and video games.
I live in a first tier suburb and money around here is not thrown about freely. Most of the hockey families in my association are making huge family sacrifices to pay the traveling fees. They choose to give up vacations and new cars and they somehow manage to come up with the funds. Hockey simply becomes a huge part of their social calendar. What I am saying is that while it is difficult at times, we make it work because this is what our families want to do. If a parent cannot make this work then I believe that just about every association offers full scholarships for the in-house program. Parents and kids need to understand that in-house is not just for "C" level players and associations need to make this understood. I'd rather see a great player who cannot afford traveling to spend a year or two playing in-house than quit the program all together.
Our community is also blessed with a large number of two parent families. Without both parents, it is almost impossible to manage driving multiple kids to various events. I'll guess the demographics will show that numbers are down in areas where there is typically only one parent. It would be much more simple if more events took place locally.
Then there is the question about injuries. More injuries occur in soccer than in hockey, but try and convince and anti-hockey, pro-soccer parent of that statistic.
Also, there are many parents out there who do not want their child exposed to "UNFAIR" sporting events. These are the same people who want to change the verbiage from A and B team to Blue and Gold team so that no one gets their feeling hurt.
Finally, it is easier to play video games and watch TV than it is to get up off the couch and head out to a 9 p.m. practice. (It is also easier for the parents to leave them on the couch).
I think the future of hockey is not in the hearts of the kids, but rather in the hands of the parents. Parents - We need to teach our kids that sacrifices are a part of life and a key first step to future success. We need to allow our kids to win and LOSE or life will hand them some ugly surprises along the way that they will be totally unprepared for. We need to motivate them off of the couch and onto a rink, court, or pool where they will make new friends, acquire new skills, develop a team player mentality and learn to step outside of their comfort zone. Consider this a gift to your child's future happiness.
Sorry to ramble on, but I really believe that the key is the parents and we need to somehow convince them that the benefits far outweigh the sacrifices.
I live in a first tier suburb and money around here is not thrown about freely. Most of the hockey families in my association are making huge family sacrifices to pay the traveling fees. They choose to give up vacations and new cars and they somehow manage to come up with the funds. Hockey simply becomes a huge part of their social calendar. What I am saying is that while it is difficult at times, we make it work because this is what our families want to do. If a parent cannot make this work then I believe that just about every association offers full scholarships for the in-house program. Parents and kids need to understand that in-house is not just for "C" level players and associations need to make this understood. I'd rather see a great player who cannot afford traveling to spend a year or two playing in-house than quit the program all together.
Our community is also blessed with a large number of two parent families. Without both parents, it is almost impossible to manage driving multiple kids to various events. I'll guess the demographics will show that numbers are down in areas where there is typically only one parent. It would be much more simple if more events took place locally.
Then there is the question about injuries. More injuries occur in soccer than in hockey, but try and convince and anti-hockey, pro-soccer parent of that statistic.
Also, there are many parents out there who do not want their child exposed to "UNFAIR" sporting events. These are the same people who want to change the verbiage from A and B team to Blue and Gold team so that no one gets their feeling hurt.
Finally, it is easier to play video games and watch TV than it is to get up off the couch and head out to a 9 p.m. practice. (It is also easier for the parents to leave them on the couch).
I think the future of hockey is not in the hearts of the kids, but rather in the hands of the parents. Parents - We need to teach our kids that sacrifices are a part of life and a key first step to future success. We need to allow our kids to win and LOSE or life will hand them some ugly surprises along the way that they will be totally unprepared for. We need to motivate them off of the couch and onto a rink, court, or pool where they will make new friends, acquire new skills, develop a team player mentality and learn to step outside of their comfort zone. Consider this a gift to your child's future happiness.
Sorry to ramble on, but I really believe that the key is the parents and we need to somehow convince them that the benefits far outweigh the sacrifices.
Very good topic with some excellent insights. Obviously we have a lot of people on this board who truely care about the state of our game.
I keep hearing statements like "numbers are down" or "we don't have the numbers". Being from Albert Lea the issue of "numbers" is something in which I can relate. For instance, this year we had about 20 kids trying out for 2 bantam teams. Why is that? Is it that there are fewer kids? I don't have the answer, but I just don't see what MH could do to improve the situation in AL, it's an internal issue. It's up to each association to promote the game, get kids signed up, make it fun and keep them around - not MH. Maybe MH needs a marketing division, somebody that could work with and help the associations promote the game in schools.
Which brings me to my next point, "make it fun". Sounds easy enough, right? But how do you "make it fun"? More games, fewer practices, less travel, more tourneys, coaches wearing helmuts, no pucks, blue pucks, play for free? Again, I don't have the answer(s) and I bet you would get a different answer to the "make it fun" question from each person that you asked.
My thought on these 2 issues is that they should be addressed at the association level, not MH. Maybe instead of us holding MH accountable, MH should be holding each us as assocations accountable.
I keep hearing statements like "numbers are down" or "we don't have the numbers". Being from Albert Lea the issue of "numbers" is something in which I can relate. For instance, this year we had about 20 kids trying out for 2 bantam teams. Why is that? Is it that there are fewer kids? I don't have the answer, but I just don't see what MH could do to improve the situation in AL, it's an internal issue. It's up to each association to promote the game, get kids signed up, make it fun and keep them around - not MH. Maybe MH needs a marketing division, somebody that could work with and help the associations promote the game in schools.
Which brings me to my next point, "make it fun". Sounds easy enough, right? But how do you "make it fun"? More games, fewer practices, less travel, more tourneys, coaches wearing helmuts, no pucks, blue pucks, play for free? Again, I don't have the answer(s) and I bet you would get a different answer to the "make it fun" question from each person that you asked.
My thought on these 2 issues is that they should be addressed at the association level, not MH. Maybe instead of us holding MH accountable, MH should be holding each us as assocations accountable.
Goldy
exit conferences
good idea, Mn Hockey committee is looking at it -
1 - Have MN Hockey questionnaire sent to them and gathered by MN H and then shared specifically with the assn and also in general with everyone or
2 - create a generic ?aire and have it available for people (assn) to use, but ask them to share with MNH so they can share with everyone.
Not sure where the committee is at in timin of things.. so that is all I can share.
exit conferences
good idea, Mn Hockey committee is looking at it -
1 - Have MN Hockey questionnaire sent to them and gathered by MN H and then shared specifically with the assn and also in general with everyone or
2 - create a generic ?aire and have it available for people (assn) to use, but ask them to share with MNH so they can share with everyone.
Not sure where the committee is at in timin of things.. so that is all I can share.
RSI
good points and
make the assn accountable
well maybe a good idea but not likely.
MNH can do several things - gather info from above (USA Hockey) sideways (from other affiliates Michingan, Mass etc..) and from below (MN local assn, cocahes etc) and then put it together and share it with others.
So....
WHAT CAN YOU DO TO MAKE IT MORE FUN?
FOR BANTAMS? A LEVEL, B, HOUSE, FOR MITES?
I know people will have different ideas, but that is the point, gather the ideas.
So ask your kids, ask your wife, ask your coach and
then put them on here or email me or someone else 'important' (please notice the quotes).
good points and
make the assn accountable
well maybe a good idea but not likely.
MNH can do several things - gather info from above (USA Hockey) sideways (from other affiliates Michingan, Mass etc..) and from below (MN local assn, cocahes etc) and then put it together and share it with others.
So....
WHAT CAN YOU DO TO MAKE IT MORE FUN?
FOR BANTAMS? A LEVEL, B, HOUSE, FOR MITES?
I know people will have different ideas, but that is the point, gather the ideas.
So ask your kids, ask your wife, ask your coach and
then put them on here or email me or someone else 'important' (please notice the quotes).
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Neutron 14
- Posts: 5339
- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:48 pm
One thing that I think would make it and all other sports better is if people would stop trying to "Make it fun".
Provide a competitive athletic experience. If you sign your child up for a sport ,expect that you will be provided with a competitive athletic experience, not a field trip to the petting zoo.
Be what you are. A hockey program. Dont try to build character, self esteem , have fun and blah blah blah. Thats for parents, schools, churches and Valley Fair to do.
In other words, the first thing we do is get rid of all the moms.
Are we clear?
Provide a competitive athletic experience. If you sign your child up for a sport ,expect that you will be provided with a competitive athletic experience, not a field trip to the petting zoo.
Be what you are. A hockey program. Dont try to build character, self esteem , have fun and blah blah blah. Thats for parents, schools, churches and Valley Fair to do.
In other words, the first thing we do is get rid of all the moms.
Are we clear?
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Neutron 14
- Posts: 5339
- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:48 pm
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DumpandChase1
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:37 pm
Moms
Packerboy,
Can we keep the hot moms?
Can we keep the hot moms?
Neut, I agree. The competitive athletic experience is enjoyable. Its exhilirating and very rewarding. Thats why we do it. Even old farts like us still pick up a club and hit a ball into a hole with a modest wager on who will do it best.
But it isnt 'fun' like going to Valley Fair is fun. It isnt fun like doing cannonballs in the pool is fun. There is blood, sweat ,and tears involved ....and sometimes lunch money.
Thats what the mommy factor doesnt get. They want the athletic experince to be the same as the field trip.
Yes we can keep the moms and Neut and I use the term loosely. There are a lot of Mr Moms out there too who spew out the 'oh lets remeber to keep it fun' horse dung.
But it isnt 'fun' like going to Valley Fair is fun. It isnt fun like doing cannonballs in the pool is fun. There is blood, sweat ,and tears involved ....and sometimes lunch money.
Thats what the mommy factor doesnt get. They want the athletic experince to be the same as the field trip.
Yes we can keep the moms and Neut and I use the term loosely. There are a lot of Mr Moms out there too who spew out the 'oh lets remeber to keep it fun' horse dung.