Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

[PVTeaglesAA]

I don't think all private schools are the same. Our New Ulm Eagles have players from 3 private schools, New Ulm Cathedral, MVL, and Sleepy St Mary's along with 3 public schools New Ulm, Sleepy Eye, and Springfield. Sure this gives us AA enrollment but we don't belong in AA unless you want some really small town team in state.

[Doc Holliday]

I don't think all private schools are the same. Our New Ulm Eagles have players from 3 private schools, New Ulm Cathedral, MVL, and Sleepy St Mary's along with 3 public schools New Ulm, Sleepy Eye, and Springfield. Sure this gives us AA enrollment but we don't belong in AA unless you want some really small town team in state.

You don't belong in St. Paul either.

I'm kidding. And I do agree with you and have never accepted the notion that if you're private, you must play AA. Not all privates are the same. And if all the privates move up, suddenly you'll have a weaker A. Suddenly, Hermantown is now a "trophy chaser." How many multiple titles in a row or a period of years do they need to win before they need to move up?

I'd like STA & Breck to follow what BSM did, and that's move up because you have won multiple titles at the A level. But I don't know if I'm a fan of forcing them. This one may sound strange, but I'd rather see no opt up (forcing a Roseau to play A) rather than force any private school that falls within the criteria of the #'s of a Class A school to have to play AA.

But then again, I'm full of too many wacky ideas, like that it should be completely legal to kick the puck in the net.

[edinahornets10]

If they allowed kicking the puck into the net, the goal crease would have to be about double the size because everyone would just try and deflect it off a skate. This is hockey, not soccer. The object of the game is to shoot the puck into the goal with a stick if that was already clearly obvious.

[stpaul]

I don't get why everyone debates this stupid topic so much. Same crap every year. Even if they made the perfect changes to make everyone happy, all of you would still find some way to bicker. Bunch of "hogwash"! Just win and shut up! This is coming from a public school northerner too..

Amen. Now 5 pages about a topic was decided by the coaches, ADs and MSHSL long ago. Private schools were admitted 38 years ago and 2 class hockey based on enrollment 18 years ago. There is no movement whatsoever to change any of it.

Now 11 and climbing. I'm pretty sure there was a 16 page thread last year about STA.

[east hockey]

I don't get why everyone debates this stupid topic so much. Same crap every year. Even if they made the perfect changes to make everyone happy, all of you would still find some way to bicker. Bunch of "hogwash"! Just win and shut up! This is coming from a public school northerner too..

Amen. Now 5 pages about a topic was decided by the coaches, ADs and MSHSL long ago. Private schools were admitted 38 years ago and 2 class hockey based on enrollment 18 years ago. There is no movement whatsoever to change any of it.

Now 11 and climbing. I'm pretty sure there was a 16 page thread last year about STA.

Bet this one doesn't get that far.

Lee

[PuckU126]

Bet this one doesn't get that far.

Lee

Someone will mess it up. Until then...

[notTONIGHT]

If this has been proposed already I apologize. I did not have time to read the entire thread. If not, hear me out.

What about having all of the private schools put into one section for class A? If that doesnt suit them they can move up to AA and be in their intended section.

A new threshold for enrollment to seperate A from AA could also be implemented. Say a private school like the hilltoppers with an Enrollment of 236 could be exempt from the section? Maybe make it a private school with enrollment above 500 will be placed in this "private school section."

Then we can get back to the idea a two class tournament was meant for, allow small community based schools to participate in the tourney with an outside chance of competing.
And it wont be so dominated by private schools that simply dont play by the same rules as public schools.

[goldy313]

I don't think all private schools are the same. Our New Ulm Eagles have players from 3 private schools, New Ulm Cathedral, MVL, and Sleepy St Mary's along with 3 public schools New Ulm, Sleepy Eye, and Springfield. Sure this gives us AA enrollment but we don't belong in AA unless you want some really small town team in state.

I don't think anyone thinks an outstate host public school with co-op sponsorship with a private school should be AA, there are a number of these: Winona/Winona Cotter, Austin/Austin Pacelli, Faribault/Faribault Bethlehem Academy, Mankato East/Mankato Loyola. These aren't schools that are hockey powers and in many cases would have trouble fielding a team without the co-op...Mankato East doesn't have a JV, Faribault has struggled to field one and Austin and Winona have both used kids with little hockey experiance to field teams in the past decade. New Ulm is a bit different as their co-op was a last minute deal.

What's wrong with a really small town team making it to state? Roseau isn't very big with an enrollment of 374. Enrollment has less to do with hockey than most other sports. I don't think many people would have been too upset had Luverne won 3A either.

[WB6162]

Oops, didn't see this thread. No wonder I set a record for the quickest lock in board history.

JUST REMOVE THE THREAD!

Anyway, I think Hermantown in particular should step up and take a shot at winning the real championship.

[goldy313]

I don't get why everyone debates this stupid topic so much. Same crap every year. Even if they made the perfect changes to make everyone happy, all of you would still find some way to bicker. Bunch of "hogwash"! Just win and shut up! This is coming from a public school northerner too..

Amen. Now 5 pages about a topic was decided by the coaches, ADs and MSHSL long ago. Private schools were admitted 38 years ago and 2 class hockey based on enrollment 18 years ago. There is no movement whatsoever to change any of it.

Now 11 and climbing. I'm pretty sure there was a 16 page thread last year about STA.

If you would have asked me in November if I saw any way the MSHSL would change it's penalty enforcement mid season I'd have said no chance. If the president of the coaches association had been different I don't think it would have changed either. I can go through 10 different things that the MSHSL changed pretty much out of the blue based on coaches association recomendations or that came out of left field and were against their recomendations. Just in the last year, hockey penalties were changed, wrestling changed their weights, football went to another class (a thought that at this time last year was pretty far fetched). How many times in the past 20 years has the basketball format changed? At least 4 including a couple of season where enrollment didn't matter.

What movement was there to change the penalty enforcemnet in November? What happened to sectional scheduling in football that was supposed to be a done deal? In both those cases change came almost at the behest of 1 person.

Is the debate worthless? That's up to each person, but just because things haven't changed in the past or recent past seems to have little bearing on what happens in the future.

[mnhockey2019]

Since the implication is that private schools in the metro area recruit, does anyone know when Breck's players started attending Breck? Breck goes from pre-kindegarten to HS, so if a majority of their players started attending Breck in 9th grade, that is a good indication of recruiting since their grade size goes from 90 students in 8th grade to approximately 130 in 12th grade. If some have attended Breck since kindegarten it is a little tough to argue that Breck recruited those kids. Needless to say Breck and STA should move up to AA and a couple of other schools should seriously consider it.

[mvp3]

Since the implication is that private schools in the metro area recruit, does anyone know when Breck's players started attending Breck? Breck goes from pre-kindegarten to HS, so if a majority of their players started attending Breck in 9th grade, that is a good indication of recruiting since their grade size goes from 90 students in 8th grade to approximately 130 in 12th grade. If some have attended Breck since kindegarten it is a little tough to argue that Breck recruited those kids. Needless to say Breck and STA should move up to AA and a couple of other schools should seriously consider it.

Would be nice to know the numbers of that but I could not answer that, maybe someone else can? I agree that STA and Breck should make the move but after watching today I can't agree that all privates (DM and Lourdes) should be forced to AA.

An idea for the playoffs that I would like to see is ditching geographical sections to try to get the best 8 teams to state. I just read this, http://minnesota-scores.blogspot.com/20 ... round.html, yesterday and it is written for basketball but I think it is an interesting proposition that could work for hockey as well.

[goldy313]

The thing with basketball is...well, the state basketball tournament is dieing a slow painfull death. It drew over 140,000 in 1971, it was down to 79,000 in 2007 and drew only 58,000 last year and that's with 4 classes and 32 schools, barely outdrawing the state wrestling tournament.

Geography is tough but almost a necassary problem. What happens if Rochester gets sent to Moorhead on a Tuesday night? Winona to Roseau? In class A it is even worse.

The other thing is we already have a centralizing of power, hockey isn't alone and of the 4 major boys sports is the most wide open. Football has 4 teams, maybe we're now down to 3 (Wayzata, Eden Prairie, and Minnetonka) Basketball has 1 (Hopkins), and Wrestling isn't even competitive with Apple Valley. Do we really want to change that and give away the aspect of hockey that makes it the most appealing and that being anyone can win no matter if you're Roseau or Rochester?
Hockey with a hot goalie and baseball with a hot pitcher give an underdog a realistic chance no matter where you're from.

[xwildfan]

Supposedly, STA coaches approached headmaster and AD about moving up to AA. They nixed the request.

Also, watched a few Sibley Area bantam games this year. Big influx of STA kids into Sibley program; most of new players don't live in area. Was not aware of residency rule change that allows players to play in the program where their school is located.

Result is two-edged sword. Several local players got bumped down a level; however, all teams seem to be better teams.

[HShockeywatcher]

If all private schools (or at least sta, breck, lourdes, dm, totino, blake) opted up to aa, are there any public schools that would logically follow?

[Doc Holliday]

If they allowed kicking the puck into the net, the goal crease would have to be about double the size because everyone would just try and deflect it off a skate. This is hockey, not soccer. The object of the game is to shoot the puck into the goal with a stick if that was already clearly obvious.

The object of the game is to get the puck in the net by any legal means. You can shoot a puck in a 90 degree direction away from the goal, but if it bounces off of a shin pad and goes in, it counts. You can already deflect a puck off of your skate, as long as it isn't a distinct kicking motion. People throw the puck at the net all the time simply for the hope for a crazy deflection. Making it legal gets rid of a ton of controversy. No more "did it go in off of a skate?" "Was it kicked in?" The puck went in. It wasn't a high stick. It wasn't thrown in. Those are obvious differences. You honestly think that people are going to start trying to kick the puck in the net rather than use a stick? You can kick a pass over to someone, but I'd say 99.3% (rough guess) of passes are made with a stick. I will say that I know I'm in the definite minority, so I won't argue it anymore. Just remember where the movement began when it comes true.

Back on topic: I've heard that STA coaches have wanted to go to AA as well. This may be true, but there could be a little more pressure put on that just simply asking. Ken Pauly left for Tonka so he could coach AA. By no means am I saying that Pauly leaving was the reason for the move up to AA by BSM, but if a coach wanted to put a little more pressure on the school, I'm guessing he could.

What I haven't read much here is any STA supporters backing a stay in A. Do they exist and I just haven't seen them?

[OnFrozenPond]

If all private schools (or at least sta, breck, lourdes, dm, totino, blake) opted up to aa, are there any public schools that would logically follow?

I don't think that should be a big concern. Unlike the Private schools, public school programs ebb and flow with the talent in the community. Several years ago you could have made a case that Warroad should have opted up.

Some interesting numbers...

Public schools have won 14 of the past 18 AA championships
Public schools have won 6 of the past 10 AA championships
Public schools have won 4 of the past 5 AA championships (including 3 in a row)

Private schools have won 10 of the past 18 A championships
Private schools have won 7 of the past 10 A championships
Private schools have won 4 of the past 5 A championships (including 4 in a row)

[Ranger101]

If they allowed kicking the puck into the net, the goal crease would have to be about double the size because everyone would just try and deflect it off a skate. This is hockey, not soccer. The object of the game is to shoot the puck into the goal with a stick if that was already clearly obvious.

The object of the game is to get the puck in the net by any legal means. You can shoot a puck in a 90 degree direction away from the goal, but if it bounces off of a shin pad and goes in, it counts. You can already deflect a puck off of your skate, as long as it isn't a distinct kicking motion. People throw the puck at the net all the time simply for the hope for a crazy deflection. Making it legal gets rid of a ton of controversy. No more "did it go in off of a skate?" "Was it kicked in?" The puck went in. It wasn't a high stick. It wasn't thrown in. Those are obvious differences. You honestly think that people are going to start trying to kick the puck in the net rather than use a stick? You can kick a pass over to someone, but I'd say 99.3% (rough guess) of passes are made with a stick. I will say that I know I'm in the definite minority, so I won't argue it anymore. Just remember where the movement began when it comes true.

Hey Doc I agree with you completely. Why would it be such a big deal? If the D choses to wrap up your stick in front of the net and not get an "obstruction" penalty then you should be able to use your skate if necessary. I also hate the hand pass rule in the offensive zone..who cares..it could make for some pretty sweet goals if they got rid of it..hand pass one T?

[rainier]

Metro privates: located in an area with a population of 3,000,000
Duluth Marshall: located in city of 90,000
Rochester Lourdes: located in city of 106,000
St. Cloud Cathedral: located in city of 66,000

These private schools draw in top talent from these large cities. 10 of the last 13 Class A champions have been private schools from one of the large cities listed above. Only 1 Class A title game in the last 13 years was between two public schools.

Can anyone say with a straight face that drawing from a AA sized population center isn't the reason the private schools are winning so much? We know it's not from having great youth programs to develop the talent. It doesn't matter why the players are going to the private schools, all that matters is that a large chunk of the talent from huge, AA sized areas ends up on their rosters.

These are AA teams. They just are.

The worst thing that happened to Class A hockey was BSM opting up after winning titles, because that gave the MSHSL the impression that the private schools exploiting the enrollment loophole would self-regulate and choose the path of integrity once they had established their hockey programs. Obviously, this hasn't happened.

As was astutely mentioned by another poster, "Breck and STA schedule SSM (and play them tightly, by the way), yet they are in the small school class of MN HS hockey?"

All of the whining of this thread may be for nothing (I admit I do most of it), but I think the MSHSL will do something about this. Call me overly optimistic or just plain delusional, but voluntarily or not, I see the private schools from large cities moving to AA within the next few years.

[whos_it]

Metro privates: located in an area with a population of 3,000,000
Duluth Marshall: located in city of 90,000
Rochester Lourdes: located in city of 106,000
St. Cloud Cathedral: located in city of 66,000

These private schools draw in top talent from these large cities. 10 of the last 13 Class A champions have been private schools from one of the large cities listed above. Only 1 Class A title game in the last 13 years was between two public schools.

Can anyone say with a straight face that drawing from a AA sized population center isn't the reason the private schools are winning so much? We know it's not from having great youth programs to develop the talent. It doesn't matter why the players are going to the private schools, all that matters is that a large chunk of the talent from huge, AA sized areas ends up on their rosters.

These are AA teams. They just are.

The worst thing that happened to Class A hockey was BSM opting up after winning titles, because that gave the MSHSL the impression that the private schools exploiting the enrollment loophole would self-regulate and choose the path of integrity once they had established their hockey programs. Obviously, this hasn't happened.

As was astutely mentioned by another poster, "Breck and STA schedule SSM (and play them tightly, by the way), yet they are in the small school class of MN HS hockey?"

All of the whining of this thread may be for nothing (I admit I do most of it), but I think the MSHSL will do something about this. Call me overly optimistic or just plain delusional, but voluntarily or not, I see the private schools from large cities moving to AA within the next few years.

Excellent Post .... this says it all. There are no private schools in say a 10,000 person community even close to competing in hockey. Most don't even have a program. SIZE (community) does matter on this one.

[mvp3]

Metro privates: located in an area with a population of 3,000,000
Duluth Marshall: located in city of 90,000
Rochester Lourdes: located in city of 106,000
St. Cloud Cathedral: located in city of 66,000

These private schools draw in top talent from these large cities. 10 of the last 13 Class A champions have been private schools from one of the large cities listed above. Only 1 Class A title game in the last 13 years was between two public schools.

Can anyone say with a straight face that drawing from a AA sized population center isn't the reason the private schools are winning so much? We know it's not from having great youth programs to develop the talent. It doesn't matter why the players are going to the private schools, all that matters is that a large chunk of the talent from huge, AA sized areas ends up on their rosters.

These are AA teams. They just are.

The worst thing that happened to Class A hockey was BSM opting up after winning titles, because that gave the MSHSL the impression that the private schools exploiting the enrollment loophole would self-regulate and choose the path of integrity once they had established their hockey programs. Obviously, this hasn't happened.

As was astutely mentioned by another poster, "Breck and STA schedule SSM (and play them tightly, by the way), yet they are in the small school class of MN HS hockey?"

All of the whining of this thread may be for nothing (I admit I do most of it), but I think the MSHSL will do something about this. Call me overly optimistic or just plain delusional, but voluntarily or not, I see the private schools from large cities moving to AA within the next few years.

Did Marshall and Lourdes really look like they need to be moved up to AA yesterday? Yes, Breck and STA need to be move up already but I don't see any problems right now with other schools. It has only been those two privates winning Class A title recently, though TG did in '02 I believe and DM had that run of 2nd place finishes. Without Breck and STA, that opens up 8 spots in the championship game in the last 12 years to other teams.

[defense]

Their time will pass, eventually. Just like everything else.

[rainier]

Metro privates: located in an area with a population of 3,000,000
Duluth Marshall: located in city of 90,000
Rochester Lourdes: located in city of 106,000
St. Cloud Cathedral: located in city of 66,000

These private schools draw in top talent from these large cities. 10 of the last 13 Class A champions have been private schools from one of the large cities listed above. Only 1 Class A title game in the last 13 years was between two public schools.

Can anyone say with a straight face that drawing from a AA sized population center isn't the reason the private schools are winning so much? We know it's not from having great youth programs to develop the talent. It doesn't matter why the players are going to the private schools, all that matters is that a large chunk of the talent from huge, AA sized areas ends up on their rosters.

These are AA teams. They just are.

The worst thing that happened to Class A hockey was BSM opting up after winning titles, because that gave the MSHSL the impression that the private schools exploiting the enrollment loophole would self-regulate and choose the path of integrity once they had established their hockey programs. Obviously, this hasn't happened.

As was astutely mentioned by another poster, "Breck and STA schedule SSM (and play them tightly, by the way), yet they are in the small school class of MN HS hockey?"

All of the whining of this thread may be for nothing (I admit I do most of it), but I think the MSHSL will do something about this. Call me overly optimistic or just plain delusional, but voluntarily or not, I see the private schools from large cities moving to AA within the next few years.

Did Marshall and Lourdes really look like they need to be moved up to AA yesterday? Yes, Breck and STA need to be move up already but I don't see any problems right now with other schools. It has only been those two privates winning Class A title recently, though TG did in '02 I believe and DM had that run of 2nd place finishes. Without Breck and STA, that opens up 8 spots in the championship game in the last 12 years to other teams.

I see what you're saying, but they still have easy access to AA pools of talent. It is no coincidence that when Marshall went on their big run in 06-08, East did not make it to state. And just wait and see Marshall over the next 2-3 years, they will be outstanding, and I am willing to bet there will be a corresponding swoon (relative to their usual success) for East during this time.

Some of the top Bantams from the Duluth area went to Marshall this season, and word from Duluth posters is that 5-6 of the top Bantams in Duluth will be on Marshall next year. These are kids that would otherwise go to East, a AA school. This type of movement is simply impossible for the VAST majority of A schools.

And Lourdes may not have looked all that great, but there are 3 AA schools in Rochester, yet the one A school is the best team in the city. If a large chunk of the best players in Rochester go to a public school, they will play in AA, but if they decide to go to Lourdes, they are in A. That doesn't seem right.

If a team can draw from a AA population center and kids in that city can switch schools without having to move or drive long distances, they should be in AA.

The vast majority of A teams are subject to the vagaries of their existing talent pools, private schools in large cities are only limited to whether the top kids choose to go to their school or not. This is a HUGE difference and is exactly why private schools are dominating A.

[HShockeywatcher]

If a team can draw from a AA population center and kids in that city can switch schools without having to move or drive long distances, they should be in AA.

The vast majority of A teams are subject to the vagaries of their existing talent pools, private schools in large cities are only limited to whether the top kids choose to go to their school or not. This is a HUGE difference and is exactly why private schools are dominating A.

You heard it here first; Proctor, Mankato East/West, Denfeld, Apollo and many others need to opt up to AA.

You say that and many say it is before teams being allowed to opt up. Neither are wrong.
Like in 4A football the last decade, it isn't "private schools" it is two schools that are private, it is two schools that are private.
a. You take St Thomas/Breck out and there is no domination.
b. You don't let teams opt up, there is no domination.
c. Communities focus on their communities more instead of pointing fingers, there is no domination.

[mvp3]

Metro privates: located in an area with a population of 3,000,000
Duluth Marshall: located in city of 90,000
Rochester Lourdes: located in city of 106,000
St. Cloud Cathedral: located in city of 66,000

These private schools draw in top talent from these large cities. 10 of the last 13 Class A champions have been private schools from one of the large cities listed above. Only 1 Class A title game in the last 13 years was between two public schools.

Can anyone say with a straight face that drawing from a AA sized population center isn't the reason the private schools are winning so much? We know it's not from having great youth programs to develop the talent. It doesn't matter why the players are going to the private schools, all that matters is that a large chunk of the talent from huge, AA sized areas ends up on their rosters.

These are AA teams. They just are.

The worst thing that happened to Class A hockey was BSM opting up after winning titles, because that gave the MSHSL the impression that the private schools exploiting the enrollment loophole would self-regulate and choose the path of integrity once they had established their hockey programs. Obviously, this hasn't happened.

As was astutely mentioned by another poster, "Breck and STA schedule SSM (and play them tightly, by the way), yet they are in the small school class of MN HS hockey?"

All of the whining of this thread may be for nothing (I admit I do most of it), but I think the MSHSL will do something about this. Call me overly optimistic or just plain delusional, but voluntarily or not, I see the private schools from large cities moving to AA within the next few years.

Did Marshall and Lourdes really look like they need to be moved up to AA yesterday? Yes, Breck and STA need to be move up already but I don't see any problems right now with other schools. It has only been those two privates winning Class A title recently, though TG did in '02 I believe and DM had that run of 2nd place finishes. Without Breck and STA, that opens up 8 spots in the championship game in the last 12 years to other teams.

I see what you're saying, but they still have easy access to AA pools of talent. It is no coincidence that when Marshall went on their big run in 06-08, East did not make it to state. And just wait and see Marshall over the next 2-3 years, they will be outstanding, and I am willing to bet there will be a corresponding swoon (relative to their usual success) for East during this time.

Some of the top Bantams from the Duluth area went to Marshall this season, and word from Duluth posters is that 5-6 of the top Bantams in Duluth will be on Marshall next year. These are kids that would otherwise go to East, a AA school. This type of movement is simply impossible for the VAST majority of A schools.

And Lourdes may not have looked all that great, but there are 3 AA schools in Rochester, yet the one A school is the best team in the city. If a large chunk of the best players in Rochester go to a public school, they will play in AA, but if they decide to go to Lourdes, they are in A. That doesn't seem right.

If a team can draw from a AA population center and kids in that city can switch schools without having to move or drive long distances, they should be in AA.

The vast majority of A teams are subject to the vagaries of their existing talent pools, private schools in large cities are only limited to whether the top kids choose to go to their school or not. This is a HUGE difference and is exactly why private schools are dominating A.

I'll just pick your brain here a little bit, what about in St. Cloud where there is one AA school (Teach) and then 4 A teams in the direct vicinity (Apollo, Cathedral, Sartell, Sauk Rapids)? While there are different youth associations, these A teams have all the opportunity to draw kids from the st. cloud metro area. There could be many reasons why kids choose one over the other, including Apollo has a bad rep for academics, SR and Tech have had some heat around their hockey programs (coaches, parents, AD's), where friends go, tuition at Cathedral, and there could be many more.

I'll maintain my stance that the only private schools truly dominating A are STA and Breck. Marshall could be soon by your accounts but I don't really see SCC, Lourdes, Blake, or TG dominating like STA or Breck have been recently. Again things could change either way. To me they would just be competitive teams.

One more thought I had is would you apply this principal to all sports even is the private school is not as successful/competitive in some sports. Would they have to play up a class higher than their enrollment would place them or just play in the highest class?