Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

[HShockeywatcher]

My only venture into this thread:

Today, at the press conference after the win, someone asked Greg Vannelli about possibly opting up. His response:

"I know we're where we belong. It's not easy to do this. After these past few weeks, we're emotionally drained." He also cited his team's lack of top-end players, particularly at forward, as another reason why his team doesn't opt up. "It's not like we have stars," he said.

Make of that what you will.

The man went to the school and asked to move up (or at least that's what the reports say). At this point he is saying what is best for PR.

[Hard water fan]

From an earlier discussion on the girls forum...


On the boys side it is equally as impressive. In the last decade, of the 20 championships, over 1/3 have been from private schools. Even more interesting is that private schools comprise less than 10% of the total programs. That's an unbelievably high winning percentage. Factor in a comparison of total attendance and it isn't even worth discussing. Private schools have an obvious leg-up on the public school "competition" despite having much smaller attendance. The question is will the community based programs and the MSHL start to realize that their system can be improved, or will they continue to bury their head in the sand? There's room for both models, and lots can be gained from having a better understanding of why these programs are so succesful. To quote the great Harry Wilson: He who rejects change is the architect of decay. The only human institution which rejects progress is the cemetery.

[HShockeywatcher]

For all those that cheer against the private schools, let me please remind you of "open enrollment." If you say it is not close to the same as recruiting, please see Hopkins Boys Basketball, and Apple Valley Wrestling just to name a few.

Already brought up. Read... it's quite different.

Someone coming on and making the broad statement like that doesn't actually make it true. It is very similar and the fact that public schools don't try to make themselves attractive is something tax payers should be disappointed about.

I am, for a multitude of non-hockey reasons.

The biggest problem I have with STA is that they are an all guys school, this meaning that there 730 students classifies them as a "small" school when really you should times that by 2 bc all public schools have women included in enrollment. That would hypothetically put them with the same amount of potential hockey players as a school with 1460 students they would easily be AA. It's time to use some common sense!

They have an enrollment of 533, per the MSHSL. Doubled makes them 1066 which is under the cutoff. According to the rules/system the MSHSL has developed they are in the right class based on their most recent enrollment figure. Leaving my opinion out, just stating facts.

Could they include middle school numbers? I don't know if that would help as public school communities probably have many more. Just a thought.

STA... no doubt needs to move up. 4 titles in 6 years, that's dominating a class. Personally I say if you win 3 in 5 years, you don't get to make the decision. Then... if you don't qualify for state in the next 5 years, it can be re-reviewed by class A coaches.

So next season, move STA up... and if Breck wins it all, they get moved up the following season.

The sad part is that there are teams that should WANT to move up rather than stay back and just be the big fish in the smaller pond. Look at BSM for a great example... moved up to AA, next year they are going to be "independent" and will probably schedule EP, Wayzata, Edina, 'Tonka, DE, HM and as many of the other top teams as they can get. WHY? Because playing against teams they know they can beat does nothing for you except pad your stats.

1. They can't move up next year. It comes up every 2 years.

2. So you want a tier system? If a tier system is really what we want, private schools are not the only ones who should opt up.

From an earlier discussion on the girls forum...


On the boys side it is equally as impressive. In the last decade, of the 20 championships, over 1/3 have been from private schools. Even more interesting is that private schools comprise less than 10% of the total programs. That's an unbelievably high winning percentage. Factor in a comparison of total attendance and it isn't even worth discussing. Private schools have an obvious leg-up on the public school "competition" despite having much smaller attendance. The question is will the community based programs and the MSHL start to realize that their system can be improved, or will they continue to bury their head in the sand? There's room for both models, and lots can be gained from having a better understanding of why these programs are so succesful. To quote the great Harry Wilson: He who rejects change is the architect of decay. The only human institution which rejects progress is the cemetery.

To quote the moderator of this forum:

One secret reason why: "It's the money, stupid".

Private schools do have an inherent leg up. No one will deny that. I write on every page that schools need to take some responsibility of their school/program to keep kids and make their programs stronger and more attractive. I guess other people feel that way too.

[O-townClown]

HSHW:

Your statements strike me as incredibly pompous. How can you pretend that public schools don't work hard to do a good job educating today's youth?

My son attends a private school. It has been the best option for our family. Yet I would never pretend that it is because public schools aren't doing their best.

It is very easy to explain why private schools can boast better test scores and superior college placement. They exclusively deal with children whose families are what I will call motivated learners. Let's say half of the kids in Inver Grove Heights are like that and half are not, taking one boy to St. Thomas Academy doesn't miraculously change anything for the unmotivateds.

If St. Thomas Academy had to deal with all of the kids that go through the doors in Fridley, Coon Rapids, Richfield, and Hastings you would no longer be able to boast about academic superiority.

Spare me (us?) this uninformed and erroneous viewpoint that public schools don't try to make themselves attractive when the reality is otherwise.

It's alright to admit private school suits you because you aren't worried about educating everyone else. Slamming the public schools to make yourself feel better?

[Bragenrights]

[quote="easton18"][quote="Bragenrights"]The biggest problem I have with STA is that they are an all guys school, this meaning that there 730 students classifies them as a "small" school when really you should times that by 2 bc all public schools have women included in enrollment. That would hypothetically put them with the same amount of potential hockey players as a school with 1460 students they would easily be AA. It's time to use some common sense![/quote]

They have an enrollment of 533, per the MSHSL. Doubled makes them 1066 which is under the cutoff. According to the rules/system the MSHSL has developed they are in the right class based on their most recent enrollment figure. Leaving my opinion out, just stating facts.[/quote]

I got my numbers from STA's official website, near one of the top links called about us or something, it said 730 students(mentioned something about some not being full time) so maybe that's where my numbers are off. But my thoughts are in Roseau, Winona ect's can play AA then STA needs to save itself from humiliation and embarrassment and move up to. My favorite sign was in a double a game that said STA= trophy chasers... Prettyuch sums it up right there

[karl(east)]

A post every public school supporter should read and learn from:

I find it extremely funny when people say that private schools don't have communities. What they really mean is cities.

Just because you don't all live in the same city doesn't mean you're not a community.

For example, if you're a parent of a high school public school kid, who do you connect with most? Other parents and members of the high school. Obviously there are exceptions but it's pretty much the same at private schools.

I attend BSM, so maybe I don't know what a "real" community is like, but when I have random people high five me when I wear my BSM stuff in public, I feel like it's a community. When I talk to parents who attended BSM and now send their kids there, I feel like it's a community. When I talk to my teachers who went to BSM and came back right after they got their degrees, I feel like it's a community. When I see hundreds of people gathered in the chapel for before school prayer the week after Jack's injury, I feel like it's a community.

I know you'll probably pick this apart because well, that's what we do on this forum, but my main point is that just because you aren't named after a city doesn't mean you don't have a community.

And to answer your question, hundreds of people welcomed the team at the Rec Center (their home ice) after the game.

A post every private school supporter should read and learn from:

HSHW:

Your statements strike me as incredibly pompous. How can you pretend that public schools don't work hard to do a good job educating today's youth?

My son attends a private school. It has been the best option for our family. Yet I would never pretend that it is because public schools aren't doing their best.

It is very easy to explain why private schools can boast better test scores and superior college placement. They exclusively deal with children whose families are what I will call motivated learners. Let's say half of the kids in Inver Grove Heights are like that and half are not, taking one boy to St. Thomas Academy doesn't miraculously change anything for the unmotivateds.

If St. Thomas Academy had to deal with all of the kids that go through the doors in Fridley, Coon Rapids, Richfield, and Hastings you would no longer be able to boast about academic superiority.

Spare me (us?) this uninformed and erroneous viewpoint that public schools don't try to make themselves attractive when the reality is otherwise.

It's alright to admit private school suits you because you aren't worried about educating everyone else. Slamming the public schools to make yourself feel better?

[rainier]

STA and BSM may have taken home trophies, but everyone knows the best HS team in MN is easily SSM. They beat both the AA and A champions while giving all of their players equal ice time; if they had used their top kids the way other HS teams do, both games would have been bad blowouts.

What's that you say, private school bobos? SSM gets players from all over North America so they shouldn't be compared to teams like STA? Really? So you think being able to draw from such a larger pool of talent is a huge advantage thus it is no real accomplishment for SSM to beat top MN HS teams 99/100 times? Interesting view point.

I guess I would wonder what SSM is doing to draw in the best talent and schools like STA should take a long look at how they can improve their schools instead of pointing fingers at the fine job being done at SSM. In fact, all of the customers (and donors) at STA should be outraged that the school isn't doing something to make themselves more attractive to TOP talent.

Academically and athletically, STA is still light years behind SSM, so it is understandable that the Cadets will always have to play a pathetic second fiddle to them. STA just doesn't have what it takes intellectually, athletically, and financially to hang with the mighty Sabres, so their customers need to quit railing on the inequalities inherent in the set-ups of the two schools and start putting some effort into improving their decaying institution before someone mistakes it for a public school.

After their victory over STA, SSM head coach Tom Ward had this to say, ""I know we should be in the MSHSL for hockey. It's not easy to win tons of national titles. After these past few weeks, we're emotionally drained." He also cited his team's lack of top-end players, particularly at forward, as another reason why his team doesn't opt up. "It's not like we have stars, I mean, only four of our players this season are can't miss NHL prospects " he said.

STA fans, don't punish SSM's success by saying they have an unfair advantage, you must remember you own mantra, "Life isn't fair." Just man up, play a better brand of hockey, and we won't have to have this pointless argument every year.

[thestickler07]

STA and BSM may have taken home trophies, but everyone knows the best HS team in MN is easily SSM. They beat both the AA and A champions while giving all of their players equal ice time; if they had used their top kids the way other HS teams do, both games would have been bad blowouts.

What's that you say, private school bobos? SSM gets players from all over North America so they shouldn't be compared to teams like STA? Really? So you think being able to draw from such a larger pool of talent is a huge advantage thus it is no real accomplishment for SSM to beat top MN HS teams 99/100 times? Interesting view point.

I guess I would wonder what SSM is doing to draw in the best talent and schools like STA should take a long look at how they can improve their schools instead of pointing fingers at the fine job being done at SSM. In fact, all of the customers (and donors) at STA should be outraged that the school isn't doing something to make themselves more attractive to TOP talent.

Academically and athletically, STA is still light years behind SSM, so it is understandable that the Cadets will always have to play a pathetic second fiddle to them. STA just doesn't have what it takes intellectually, athletically, and financially to hang with the mighty Sabres, so their customers need to quit railing on the inequalities inherent in the set-ups of the two schools and start putting some effort into improving their decaying institution before someone mistakes it for a public school.

After their victory over STA, SSM head coach Tom Ward had this to say, ""I know we should be in the MSHSL for hockey. It's not easy to win tons of national titles. After these past few weeks, we're emotionally drained." He also cited his team's lack of top-end players, particularly at forward, as another reason why his team doesn't opt up. "It's not like we have stars, I mean, only four of our players this season are can't miss NHL prospects " he said.

STA fans, don't punish SSM's success by saying they have an unfair advantage, you must remember you own mantra, "Life isn't fair." Just man up, play a better brand of hockey, and we won't have to have this pointless argument every year.

Not your best effort rainier I expected better, I'd give it a 5.5/10 for trolling.

[rainier]

f

STA and BSM may have taken home trophies, but everyone knows the best HS team in MN is easily SSM. They beat both the AA and A champions while giving all of their players equal ice time; if they had used their top kids the way other HS teams do, both games would have been bad blowouts.

What's that you say, private school bobos? SSM gets players from all over North America so they shouldn't be compared to teams like STA? Really? So you think being able to draw from such a larger pool of talent is a huge advantage thus it is no real accomplishment for SSM to beat top MN HS teams 99/100 times? Interesting view point.

I guess I would wonder what SSM is doing to draw in the best talent and schools like STA should take a long look at how they can improve their schools instead of pointing fingers at the fine job being done at SSM. In fact, all of the customers (and donors) at STA should be outraged that the school isn't doing something to make themselves more attractive to TOP talent.

Academically and athletically, STA is still light years behind SSM, so it is understandable that the Cadets will always have to play a pathetic second fiddle to them. STA just doesn't have what it takes intellectually, athletically, and financially to hang with the mighty Sabres, so their customers need to quit railing on the inequalities inherent in the set-ups of the two schools and start putting some effort into improving their decaying institution before someone mistakes it for a public school.

After their victory over STA, SSM head coach Tom Ward had this to say, ""I know we should be in the MSHSL for hockey. It's not easy to win tons of national titles. After these past few weeks, we're emotionally drained." He also cited his team's lack of top-end players, particularly at forward, as another reason why his team doesn't opt up. "It's not like we have stars, I mean, only four of our players this season are can't miss NHL prospects " he said.

STA fans, don't punish SSM's success by saying they have an unfair advantage, you must remember you own mantra, "Life isn't fair." Just man up, play a better brand of hockey, and we won't have to have this pointless argument every year.

Not your best effort rainier I expected better, I'd give it a 5.5/10 for trolling.

Great comeback. Sabre got your tongue?

You're right though, that was an STA-level post, but don't worry, once I get back in the groove my material will be back up to SSM-level quality.

[easton18]

The biggest problem I have with STA is that they are an all guys school, this meaning that there 730 students classifies them as a "small" school when really you should times that by 2 bc all public schools have women included in enrollment. That would hypothetically put them with the same amount of potential hockey players as a school with 1460 students they would easily be AA. It's time to use some common sense!

They have an enrollment of 533, per the MSHSL. Doubled makes them 1066 which is under the cutoff. According to the rules/system the MSHSL has developed they are in the right class based on their most recent enrollment figure. Leaving my opinion out, just stating facts.

I got my numbers from STA's official website, near one of the top links called about us or something, it said 730 students(mentioned something about some not being full time) so maybe that's where my numbers are off. But my thoughts are in Roseau, Winona ect's can play AA then STA needs to save itself from humiliation and embarrassment and move up to. My favorite sign was in a double a game that said STA= trophy chasers... Prettyuch sums it up right there

Yeah, the 533 figure is from the MSHSL when they did their last enrollment survey in October 2010 (?). So i'm sure it has grown since then, and their enrollment will be higher when they redo the enrollment numbers in October 2012.

[sachishi4]

that most likely includes their middle school

[HShockeywatcher]

HSHW:

Your statements strike me as incredibly pompous. How can you pretend that public schools don't work hard to do a good job educating today's youth?

My son attends a private school. It has been the best option for our family. Yet I would never pretend that it is because public schools aren't doing their best.

It is very easy to explain why private schools can boast better test scores and superior college placement. They exclusively deal with children whose families are what I will call motivated learners. Let's say half of the kids in Inver Grove Heights are like that and half are not, taking one boy to St. Thomas Academy doesn't miraculously change anything for the unmotivateds.

If St. Thomas Academy had to deal with all of the kids that go through the doors in Fridley, Coon Rapids, Richfield, and Hastings you would no longer be able to boast about academic superiority.

Spare me (us?) this uninformed and erroneous viewpoint that public schools don't try to make themselves attractive when the reality is otherwise.

It's alright to admit private school suits you because you aren't worried about educating everyone else. Slamming the public schools to make yourself feel better?

To paraphrase, the general thought from public school supporters is:
"We shouldn't be asking anything of our schools and students who leave the schools for whatever reason to go to private schools, other public schools, juniors or NTDP are traitors and not loyal."

What is pompous about asking that your tax dollars are used better? Even if they are being used well, an involved tax paying citizen would always look for improvement.

Never did I say they don't work hard. You won't find that quote. Public schools spend roughly $10k a year/student. That includes salaries, facilities, supplies, etc.

If you honestly have had your head in the sand for some time now and don't read newspapers, magazines, or the internet, watch such news shows as 60 Minutes and the like or talk to any teachers in the public school industry to know the turmoil our country's public schools are in, then there is little I can say to convince you otherwise.

There have been some posters on this board from public school communities saying the same. If you actually read my posts you'd know I am not anti-public school in any fashion. I doubt this is the venue to discuss these things though.

[O-townClown]

To paraphrase, the general thought from public school supporters is:
"We shouldn't be asking anything of our schools and students who leave the schools for whatever reason to go to private schools, other public schools, juniors or NTDP are traitors and not loyal."

What is pompous about asking that your tax dollars are used better? Even if they are being used well, an involved tax paying citizen would always look for improvement.

Never did I say they don't work hard. You won't find that quote. Public schools spend roughly $10k a year/student. That includes salaries, facilities, supplies, etc.

If you honestly have had your head in the sand for some time now and don't read newspapers, magazines, or the internet, watch such news shows as 60 Minutes and the like or talk to any teachers in the public school industry to know the turmoil our country's public schools are in, then there is little I can say to convince you otherwise.

There have been some posters on this board from public school communities saying the same. If you actually read my posts you'd know I am not anti-public school in any fashion. I doubt this is the venue to discuss these things though.

1. Opening paragraph is a tough one. I'm not speculating what you think a group of other people meant by things they have said.

2. There's nothing pompous about asking money to be used better. What is pompous is a broad-brush statement that public schools aren't trying. This is a HS hockey forum. I don't know of many "involved tax paying citizens" that are in positions to impact the quality of our public schools. What is that? A crossing guard? School board member? PTA mom?

3. Is the target zero dollars? How much is it supposed to cost? Considering we are a literate society, I don't believe this is happening by accident.

4. Our public schools "are in turmoil"? Give me a break. There isn't any argument you can make today that couldn't be made 10 years ago. 25 years ago. What is the turmoil? Guns in schools? Columbine was in 1999. High school graduation rates increased through the latter part of the last decade. Define turmoil. Public schools in general are in the same boat they've always been, with many significant innovations like charter schools, schools of choice, open enrollment, magnet programs, etc....

5. Definitely not a venue I'd choose to discuss this, but when someone makes an absurd statement about public schools not trying it is impossible to let that go.

You said:

It is very similar and the fact that public schools don't try to make themselves attractive is something tax payers should be disappointed about.

The problem isn't our nations' public schools, but some of the kids in them. Not everyone is born into an environment of support.

[thestickler07]

Great comeback. Sabre got your tongue?

You're right though, that was an STA-level post, but don't worry, once I get back in the groove my material will be back up to SSM-level quality.

Damn no I take it back, I'll give you a 6/10 because "saber got your tongue" was such a good dis.

Maybe you should recruit someone to write your posts, maybe you'll have more success with it. I won't hold you to getting someone from Hibbing though, wouldn't be fair right?

[deacon64]

MSHSL should mail Saint Thomas Academy the 2013 Class A Championship Trophy and tell them to stay home next year.

Like it, should be a poll question! Move all the privates up, some of the lower tier AA would then be in A class and actually have a chance. Look at AA first round Section scores, lots of blow outs.

[hipcheck]

Let them play where they want. If running up titles that mean nothing in class A is so important, then they can do so. All private schools make a choice.

The AA champ is considered the true champ of MN hockey!

[luvuvgame]

As someone whose kid goes to a private school, I would like the privates to band together and form a league, competing nationally. Tier 1 competition, form a true midwest prep league, west coast and east coast. They could start at the bantam level. This would eliminate all recruitment discussions, even the playing field, keep tne sanctity of the MSHSL State Championship and prevent the dilution of publc programs. If someone wants to play in the greatest show in hockey, play public. You want to compete with Culver, Shattuck or Hotchkiss for Nationals, play prep league Tier 1.

Couldn't agree more!

[Mite-dad]

Let them play where they want. If running up titles that mean nothing in class A is so important, then they can do so. All private schools make a choice.

The AA champ is considered the true champ of MN hockey!

There are a lot of small town teams that have no hope of competing in the AA tournament. Believe me, winning an A tournament would be a huge deal to a lot of communities. Why can't you people see that? This is the only hockey championship hope these communities have. Its sad that they have to beat a legit AA contender to win the A title.

[O-townClown]

Rainier, that was pretty dang funny.

Well done.

[pondhockey7]

So what happens if STA moves up to AA and dominates that level as well? Would you all have them make a AAA league and have them play themselves? Quit complaining, great season by the Cadets. Haters gonna hate!

Do you really think they are that good? I will agree that everyone here is jealous of the back to back 1A champs, but from a school that demands such high standards for itself, shouldn't they compete with "the Best of the Best."

And all you Hermantown Fans out there. Just because "OPEN ENROLLMENT" is closed doesn't mean you don't draw to your area. I know a family that moved there for that reason.

[MHGr8ness]

So what happens if STA moves up to AA and dominates that level as well? Would you all have them make a AAA league and have them play themselves? Quit complaining, great season by the Cadets. Haters gonna hate!

Do you really think they are that good? I will agree that everyone here is jealous of the back to back 1A champs, but from a school that demands such high standards for itself, shouldn't they compete with "the Best of the Best."

And all you Hermantown Fans out there. Just because "OPEN ENROLLMENT" is closed doesn't mean you don't draw to your area. I know a family that moved there for that reason.

One player is quite small compared to a whole team.

[pondhockey7]

And all you Hermantown Fans out there. Just because "OPEN ENROLLMENT" is closed doesn't mean you don't draw to your area. I know a family that moved there for that reason.

One player is quite small compared to a whole team.

ONLY POINT I was making someone stated name 1 player that didnt play youth hockey in HTown. Thats it.

[tezer13]

Private schools playing class A are:
-Rochester Lourdes
-Breck
-Blake
-Providence Academy
-Minehaha Academy
-St. Thomas Academy
-Totino-Grace
-St. Paul Academy
-St. Cloud Cathedral
-Legacy Christian
-Duluth Marshall

Looking at this list, I think all of these teams could compete in a AA section with the exception of Legacy, Minehaha, and Providence.

I think the only schools that need to opt up are STA and Breck. The rest of the privates don't dominate against public schools, and make things more interesting come tourney time.

STA... no doubt needs to move up. 4 titles in 6 years, that's dominating a class. Personally I say if you win 3 in 5 years, you don't get to make the decision. Then... if you don't qualify for state in the next 5 years, it can be re-reviewed by class A coaches.

So next season, move STA up... and if Breck wins it all, they get moved up the following season.

The sad part is that there are teams that should WANT to move up rather than stay back and just be the big fish in the smaller pond. Look at BSM for a great example... moved up to AA, next year they are going to be "independent" and will probably schedule EP, Wayzata, Edina, 'Tonka, DE, HM and as many of the other top teams as they can get. WHY? Because playing against teams they know they can beat does nothing for you except pad your stats.

Force ALL Privates to AA.
If they can't compete (say can't win 50% of their games against AA or never can get out of the first round of secionals) then allow them to petition the MSHSL to move down to A.

Breck and STA probably would have been a #2 or #3 seed in any AA section in the state. Duluth Marshall would likely have been a #5 in 7AA and maybe higher if they had played and beaten some more 7AA teams.

They deserve different rules because they opperate differently. When Hibbing has no good tender coming up what happens? They suffer and hope the kid gets better. What do the (hockey privates) do? They go out and find a new one.

Or, lol, put them all in one section Now that would be classic - lol
though the winner of the section would still likely win State

[youngblood08]

From the STA website.

Goals of Saint Thomas Academy
Saint Thomas Academy offers a balanced educational program that fosters self-esteem and self-discipline, encourages respect for others, and recognizes the unique and creative abilities of each student. Guided by its mission, the Saint Thomas Academy community has set high academic goals and offers an educational experience to a diverse student body of young men who have the integrity, capability, and motivation to benefit from, and contribute to, the Academy.

• The intellectual potential of each student is developed through a college preparatory curriculum, which fosters a respect for knowledge, critical thinking, creative expression, effective communication and independent inquiry.

• The spiritual potential of each student is developed through the daily teaching and practice of Catholic doctrine, traditions and values. The Gospel message of Jesus Christ is the basis for encouraging a positive and growing faith.

• The moral potential of each student is developed through instruction and example that incorporates values, fosters and reinforces ethical behavior and builds respectful relationships.

• The physical potential of each student is developed through a program of athletics, activities and instruction promoting health, safety, fitness and good sportsmanship.



From what I gather STA wants to challenge the students in every aspect of life, with high expectations. So why not raise the bar on the ice also??

3 games, 13 goals for, 1 goal against................time for a bigger challenge.

[DMan-dad]

From the STA website.

Goals of Saint Thomas Academy

• The physical potential of each student is developed through a program of athletics, activities and instruction promoting health, safety, fitness and good sportsmanship.

Good Sportsmanship??

That was the worst display of sportsmanship I have ever seen at the high school level, any sport. The leader of the student section (you know, the fat guy in the front) ripping the hawk mascot's head off and tossing it to the wolves. Mocking the cheerleaders and the hawk dance. No respect for that school at all. Cheer for your team, don't rip on the other team.

Luckily we couldn't understand half their cheers.

"no one likes you... clap clap clapclapclap"