Associations or AAA in winter?

[Mister Hockey]

The Detroit guy is right. We think they envy us but they don't. And that is from Hockey Town. We should be happy that we are in the top five. I think we are anyways. Minnesota, Michigan, Massachusetts, Wisconsin, and New York are probably the five best hockey states. Alaska is right up there as well.

[tomASS]

People move to Detroit, Toronto and Chicago for their kids hockey. If MN was offering something tremendous, people would be moving their kids / families in droves, but they don't.

One doesn't have to move when it is readily accessible everywhere here.

I think they don't come in droves because they know their kid will just become another player here and be a small fish in a big pond.

And I would hope entire families moving to a certain locale would not be precipitated soley for hockey. Great priorities!

[BoogeyMan]

Hi tASS, You wrote:

"And I would hope a move to a certain locale would not be precipitated soley for hockey. Great priorities!"

How do you feel about the kids that leave their associations to play for private schools, USHL or US development team? In my local association we just had a player leave for the U17 Men's team in Ann Arbor.

Private schools- Of course the parents will argue they're only doing it for the educational values. Yah right!

USHL- 100% nothing but hockey

US Development team- 100% nothing but hockey

With respect. Please tell me:

What would you do if Holy Angels inquired about your son playing goalie for them?

Be honest!

[tomASS]

[wheels]

Someone missed the topic of the post(s). (And it was not Rocket.)

Oh really.... I guess I thought it was about winter AAA vs MNHOCK in the winter.

The individual posts, not the theme of the thread, were about the age of the MN HHockey board. Your response to this post was about local boards and why volunteer. You stated Rocket (you guys, actually, but quoted Rocket) missed the point.

But you missed the point of Rockets post. You may have brought another argument to the thread topic. Not a valid one because it is not the standard of what happens but what you perceive happened (happens) in your local association.

Maybe you should go back and look. You are wrong. This thread has gone all over the place, from Envy of our system, to age of player, age of board members.... blah blah blah. My comment is what I've seen happen in the 2 local associations I have been involved with.

I'll add another thought...

Associations are heading down the wrong path due to involvement from "non sports people" getting involved without the background to make good decisions. Some people don't know their limits... I wouldn't go getting involved with the Minneapolis Youth Symphony Board, I'd leave that to the music people.

[O-townClown]

Just got back from the Nike Bauer Tournament and what a blast it was. The best competition, further grouped into regular and elite AAA groupings. Everyone there, including kids from CA, FL, TX were having a time of their life and clearly did not mind the travel. The level of competition was exceptional. The tournament speaks to the effectiveness of AAA across the country. People like the ability to choose where to play and I can't imagine being locked into one association forever, and not have a choice of where you go. I see all sorts of issues with the coaches and the directions of the association, because they have a captive audience there may not be a lot of accountability.

Shattuck stays competitive because they recruit (and pay for) the kids from other states.

Lastly, on the subject of envy......... please do not overestimate the desirability of MN hockey. People move to Detroit, Toronto and Chicago for their kids hockey. If MN was offering something tremendous, people would be moving their kids / families in droves, but they don't.

Regarding the travel, actually it is getting to some kids already. My e-mail above is from a dad who was there this weekend. Four major out-of-state tournaments already. That's a grind.

AAA is effective across the country. No doubt. Most of the country needs this because participation is so low. How many good teams are there in California? Three? St. Louis? One? It isn't like there is a lot of high level hockey going on. For Minnesota, how many teams could run in an age group?

A question about Detroit. What if the sponsorship went away for some of these teams? Still think it is such a good model? Minnesota does not yet have these sponsors lined up.

One reason people don't move as easily to Minnesota is that the HS model requires residency. Much easier to drop your kid off in Detroit or Kansas City and let them live with a host family. Homey don't play dat in MSHSL.

The AAA club model works well for the rest of the country. While you warn people not to overestimate the quality of Minnesota hockey, be sure to do the same. Don't underestimate the quality of a state that turns our far more Division I players than Michigan. Three kids for every two.

Seeing this stuff first hand in Florida is hard to watch. I talked with a Junior coach today about players. We agree that until kids make it to Division I without leaving Florida there will always be a pull. As mentioned by others, Minnesotans have no reason to leave home for hockey. A few do, but they tend to be from the smaller associations.

Nike Bauer is a great tournament. It may even boast a stronger field than nationals. I'm sure it is fun for everyone. However, it isn't the only route.

[Bucky2]

The %s are stacked against youth hockey players playing at the Divison 1 level. The pool is huge and there are only 18 scholarships for each D1 school. That being said if you do the math with 57 D1 hockey teams that have 18 scholarships per team. Figure there are 4 or so scholarships per recruiting class and that is 228 kids each year that earn a scholarship at the D1 level. To put that in perspective Edina had 10 PW teams last year which can be stated had 150 kids. I cant speak to the actual number of youth hockey players but I think we can estimate the high school levle at least 80 teams with 15 players per team which is 1200 kids vying for 228 scholarships just out of MN. Now factor in MI, MA, IL, WI, USHL and Canada and all of a sudden that 1200 players each year swells to say 7500 playersd vying for a ride of which only 228 are available. I recommedn that you squirt and pee wee parents keep it in perspective that as hard is it is to beleive your son probably wont earn a scholarship. And to take a it a step further their chance of playing in the NHL are even less than playing @ the D1 level. I just thought this would be a good segway to a new discussion of how out of whack some parents are who believe b/c their kid is hte best squirt on their team he is the next Sid. Sorry if your reality is a bit twisted but your son will likely not make it. The sheer odds are aginst him but its not to say that they cant learn a lot of life lessons along the way if the parents are grounded themselves unlike the Edina squirt incident I read so much about.

[watchdog]

thing about that nike tourney any kid can play in that.. kids from minnesota association teams can run over and play in that for the weekend.

[FromDetroit]

Regarding the travel, actually it is getting to some kids already. My e-mail above is from a dad who was there this weekend. Four major out-of-state tournaments already. That's a grind.

That is one's person’s opinion. Unless you experience it first hand I do not believe that you can comment on it. Many, and I repeat, many families from non-traditional hockey markets do it year after year, and are loving it. They get to see their kids succeed and spend a lot of quality time in the process. The down side is that not everyone can afford it, but in reality many do it and enjoy it.

AAA is effective across the country. No doubt. Most of the country needs this because participation is so low. How many good teams are there in California? Three? St. Louis? One? It isn't like there is a lot of high level hockey going on. For Minnesota, how many teams could run in an age group?

Well, CA produces a great number of National Champions compared to their enrollment numbers. MN only participates through St.Mary, and most of these kids are not even from MN. MN would have to combine a few associations to compete with the AAA caliber teams.

A question about Detroit. What if the sponsorship went away for some of these teams? Still think it is such a good model? Minnesota does not yet have these sponsors lined up.

Once again, find out the facts before you speak. AAA dues in Detroit are the same as in most other states, the difference is that they do not spend money on flights, and travel by cars.

One reason people don't move as easily to Minnesota is that the HS model requires residency. Much easier to drop your kid off in Detroit or Kansas City and let them live with a host family. Homey don't play dat in MSHSL.

Everyone has a residency requirement, and all it takes is an application for guardianship for the billet family.

The AAA club model works well for the rest of the country. While you warn people not to overestimate the quality of Minnesota hockey, be sure to do the same. Don't underestimate the quality of a state that turns our far more Division I players than Michigan. Three kids for every two.

You keep living in the past, and as the rest of the world changes you keep on counting how many kids were sent to D1. Canadian system used to be the sole purveyor of hockey talent, and they all sat and talked, just like you do how they supply the majority of talent for NHL, but it looks like even in Canada they bought a clue. Start looking at the talent that you are raising now, and see how they compete with the rest of the country before you go out on the limb for MN hockey. Every system could use an adjustment.

Seeing this stuff first hand in Florida is hard to watch. I talked with a Junior coach today about players. We agree that until kids make it to Division I without leaving Florida there will always be a pull. As mentioned by others, Minnesotans have no reason to leave home for hockey. A few do, but they tend to be from the smaller associations.

No one is suggesting that kids from MN should leave. What I was saying is that if MN system is so bloody perfect, why aren't there more kids coming to MN vs. Toronto, Detroit and Chicago?

[tomASS]

No one is suggesting that kids from MN should leave. What I was saying is that if MN system is so bloody perfect, why aren't there more kids coming to MN vs. Toronto, Detroit and Chicago?

As I stated - because these players would become small fish in a big pond

[FromDetroit]

thing about that nike tourney any kid can play in that.. kids from minnesota association teams can run over and play in that for the weekend.

I am not certain about the "any kid" part. A team would have to apply and be accepted and then be placed into the appropriate division, which may not be the "elite" division. Everything is based on the team's performance history. I know that many teams were not able to play because their team was not accepted.

[FromDetroit]

No one is suggesting that kids from MN should leave. What I was saying is that if MN system is so bloody perfect, why aren't there more kids coming to MN vs. Toronto, Detroit and Chicago?

As I stated - because these players would become small fish in a big pond

Yep! So is that why these out-of-staters were scoring on your MN talent up in Ann Arbor in August? Is that why 3 of 4 goalies who are from out-of-state (OH, FL & CA) stopped more pucks then the kids from MN?

Stop kidding yourself and be a bit more realistic. Every kid that moves away from home is far above "small fish". The reason they do not move to MN is obvious - it is not very appealing.

[watchdog]

ok lets put it this way my son plays for the junior islanders in the summer and were gona enter that tourney next fall.

[Hobey Faker]

I was in chicago for this tournament; there are amazing players from all over N. america.
Detroit guy is correct with his statements. I have been involved with hockey in MN for 15 years; this was an eye openner!
great tournament, all the travel, cost, dedication just shows what people will do for the greatest sport.
I wouldnt nock MN hockey but I certainly wouldnt over look what the rest
of the country is doing; they are producing amazing hockey players from smaller ponds which brings the question to mind- what is the ratio of players that advance to D-1 or the NHL from the populations of youth hockey players. Does MN have twice as many players compared to MI?
I would love to see an apple to apple comparison based on total partispants per state.

[greybeard58]

I have to go back to comments I have made earlier on the subject of Tier 1(AAA). Go to the USA Hockey web site, then it is under about us and click on the annual congress and read the affiliate presidents report. The quick report is Tier 1 is getting out of hand and the affiliates of Alaska, Ill.,NY,,N.H. Mass. and even in Michigan are having concerns with this level. The word coming back to this state from different members of the USA Hockey staff is that if they could they would eliminate Tier 1 as it is now and copy what Mn Hockey has done with the community based teams.

[watchdog]

ok here we go active rosters in the nhl as we speak...
1. michigan 24 players
2. minnesota 22 players
3. new york 18 players
4. massuchusetts 16 players
5. illinois 10
6. wisconsin 6
6. penn. 6
7. ohio 4
7. new jersey 4
7. indiana 4
8. alaska 3
8. con. 3
8. cali. 3
9. north dakota 2
10 maine,delaware,nabraska,florida,colorado,oklahoma,rhode island,georgia,maryland and north carolina each with 1 player

[jancze5]

Thank you H-Faker for someone else finally pointing out the obvious that the blind mice don't see....

Minnesota has WAAAAAY more kids playing hockey than any other state or the entire Southeast for that matter..hence the 2-1 ratio of D-1's coming from Minnesota...it's pure numbers!!

What Minnesota has is special, not envied by any means. Every AAA kid in all of the other states has the capability of playing local AA/A/B in local leagues, at a fraction of the cost...and they choose not to.

I'd say just everyone be happy that when the 6 seniors that started as 150 Squirts are playing in the Excel, that you cheer for those kids because they've endured the longest haul...put that in perspective with the other numbers of 228 kids a year from the entire world get to get a paycheck for playing D-1 hockey...put's it all in perspective.

[sorno82]

What makes MN hockey special is not the number of players in the NHL or D1, but the number of kids who can play this great sport, regardless of natural ability. In some of the larger associations, you have over 1000 kids participating, which is about 2% of the population of that city/area.

Granted CA, Detroit, MA and others create great players, but families need to make huge commitments early on. Kids need to show promise early, or else families will not make the commitment. They get great coaching and play with kids of similar high ability and motivation early on. This will produce a fair share of great players, at a much higher ratio than MN. Their goal is to play for Honeybaked or the NTDP.

Did anyone see "In the Crease"? National championships with no atmosphere. Don't know if that is the norm, but it is what I noticed.

In Minnesota, kids can still achieve the elite level, but they do not have to leave home to do it. They have choices. We have seen Minnesota kids go in the first round of the NHL draft, but all did it their way. Some went to the NTDP, CHL, NCAA, USHL; and some stayed home and played high school with their friends they grew up with. Several kids have turned down the NTDP so they can stay at home, which would not happen elsewhere.

They can play multiple sports if they wish, or they can focus on Hockey.

Minnesota has a grass roots model steeped in tradition and volunteers. Kids can play A, B or C hockey and enjoy the sport. They can also choose to supplement their development with AAA, camps, and clinics. I would pit any State Tournament in Minnesota (at any level) against these National tourneys for atmosphere, tradition, and excitement and come out ahead.

It all comes down to priorities. I prefer some balance.

[breakout]

What makes MN hockey special is not the number of players in the NHL or D1, but the number of kids who can play this great sport, regardless of natural ability. In some of the larger associations, you have over 1000 kids participating, which is about 2% of the population of that city/area.

Granted CA, Detroit, MA and others create great players, but families need to make huge commitments early on. Kids need to show promise early, or else families will not make the commitment. They get great coaching and play with kids of similar high ability and motivation early on. This will produce a fair share of great players, at a much higher ratio than MN. Their goal is to play for Honeybaked or the NTDP.

Did anyone see "In the Crease"? National championships with no atmosphere. Don't know if that is the norm, but it is what I noticed.

In Minnesota, kids can still achieve the elite level, but they do not have to leave home to do it. They have choices. We have seen Minnesota kids go in the first round of the NHL draft, but all did it their way. Some went to the NTDP, CHL, NCAA, USHL; and some stayed home and played high school with their friends they grew up with. Several kids have turned down the NTDP so they can stay at home, which would not happen elsewhere.

They can play multiple sports if they wish, or they can focus on Hockey.

Minnesota has a grass roots model steeped in tradition and volunteers. Kids can play A, B or C hockey and enjoy the sport. They can also choose to supplement their development with AAA, camps, and clinics. I would pit any State Tournament in Minnesota (at any level) against these National tourneys for atmosphere, tradition, and excitement and come out ahead.

It all comes down to priorities. I prefer some balance.

Nicely stated

[tomASS]

What makes MN hockey special is not the number of players in the NHL or D1, but the number of kids who can play this great sport, regardless of natural ability. In some of the larger associations, you have over 1000 kids participating, which is about 2% of the population of that city/area.

Granted CA, Detroit, MA and others create great players, but families need to make huge commitments early on. Kids need to show promise early, or else families will not make the commitment. They get great coaching and play with kids of similar high ability and motivation early on. This will produce a fair share of great players, at a much higher ratio than MN. Their goal is to play for Honeybaked or the NTDP.

Did anyone see "In the Crease"? National championships with no atmosphere. Don't know if that is the norm, but it is what I noticed.

In Minnesota, kids can still achieve the elite level, but they do not have to leave home to do it. They have choices. We have seen Minnesota kids go in the first round of the NHL draft, but all did it their way. Some went to the NTDP, CHL, NCAA, USHL; and some stayed home and played high school with their friends they grew up with. Several kids have turned down the NTDP so they can stay at home, which would not happen elsewhere.

They can play multiple sports if they wish, or they can focus on Hockey.

Minnesota has a grass roots model steeped in tradition and volunteers. Kids can play A, B or C hockey and enjoy the sport. They can also choose to supplement their development with AAA, camps, and clinics. I would pit any State Tournament in Minnesota (at any level) against these National tourneys for atmosphere, tradition, and excitement and come out ahead.

It all comes down to priorities. I prefer some balance.

Nicely stated

Yep I concur and second that motion

[Hockey!LoveIt!]

Stop kidding yourself and be a bit more realistic. Every kid that moves away from home is far above "small fish". The reason they do not move to MN is obvious - it is not very appealing.[/quote]

I can't wait to read the responses to this one.

[tomASS]

Thank you H-Faker for someone else finally pointing out the obvious that the blind mice don't see....

Minnesota has WAAAAAY more kids playing hockey than any other state or the entire Southeast for that matter..hence the 2-1 ratio of D-1's coming from Minnesota...it's pure numbers!!

What Minnesota has is special, not envied by any means. Every AAA kid in all of the other states has the capability of playing local AA/A/B in local leagues, at a fraction of the cost...and they choose not to.

I'd say just everyone be happy that when the 6 seniors that started as 150 Squirts are playing in the Excel, that you cheer for those kids because they've endured the longest haul...put that in perspective with the other numbers of 228 kids a year from the entire world get to get a paycheck for playing D-1 hockey...put's it all in perspective.

Ok maybe I've missed something things by being too general - can you either turn on the lights or take my dark glasses off?.....Or at least point me in the general direction of the bar.....sniff sniff - thank god for my keen sense of smell.

[Hockey!LoveIt!]

ok lets put it this way my son plays for the junior islanders in the summer and were gona enter that tourney next fall.

What are you trying to say...your sons team isn't very good, but they'll get accepted anyway because anyone can get in?

[elliott70]

What makes MN hockey special is not the number of players in the NHL or D1, but the number of kids who can play this great sport, regardless of natural ability. In some of the larger associations, you have over 1000 kids participating, which is about 2% of the population of that city/area.

Granted CA, Detroit, MA and others create great players, but families need to make huge commitments early on. Kids need to show promise early, or else families will not make the commitment. They get great coaching and play with kids of similar high ability and motivation early on. This will produce a fair share of great players, at a much higher ratio than MN. Their goal is to play for Honeybaked or the NTDP.

Did anyone see "In the Crease"? National championships with no atmosphere. Don't know if that is the norm, but it is what I noticed.

In Minnesota, kids can still achieve the elite level, but they do not have to leave home to do it. They have choices. We have seen Minnesota kids go in the first round of the NHL draft, but all did it their way. Some went to the NTDP, CHL, NCAA, USHL; and some stayed home and played high school with their friends they grew up with. Several kids have turned down the NTDP so they can stay at home, which would not happen elsewhere.

They can play multiple sports if they wish, or they can focus on Hockey.

Minnesota has a grass roots model steeped in tradition and volunteers. Kids can play A, B or C hockey and enjoy the sport. They can also choose to supplement their development with AAA, camps, and clinics. I would pit any State Tournament in Minnesota (at any level) against these National tourneys for atmosphere, tradition, and excitement and come out ahead.

It all comes down to priorities. I prefer some balance.

Exactly!

[O-townClown]

Thank you Sorno for nailing it.

Most kids will not play college hockey on scholarship. For all that go down the AAA road it is incredibly rigorous. In "From Detroit's" eyes this is all in the name of advancing to something like the NHL? Yes, the numbers show that Michigan is a little more effective at producing NHL players. Kudos to Michigan.

I asked the question above about sponsorship. If Little Caesars, Honeybaked, Compuware, and Victory Honda are kicking in money and "dues" for players are still the same, where does all the money go?

Do the scholarship the top players in hopes of having a stacked team and then fill in with the best paying players they can find?

This sounds like basketball a little bit, if in fact young stars are courted. Maybe I'm wrong on all this.

Minnesota's development model is effective. It does look like it may hinder the very best players. At what cost? Hardly any, since it corresponds to a big benefit for everyone else.

I think Minnesota needs to add lots of games to produce better goaltenders, but that position is a little weird. Quebec seems to be a better area for netminders when compared to Ontario. Hmmmm.