Hockey and Football overlapping

[WayOutWest]

Wrong again......our local HS started their skates in September....September 14th (to be exact). Captain practices started in mid-October. And while they aren't mandatory (although just about every player is there), neither are Squirt and PeeWee practices when a kid has a conflict with football.

Let's see......coaches don't get access to their HS kids until mid-November, by MSHSL rule. Captain's practices a month before that? I doubt that, and if so, why?
Anders Lee, Budish, and more were on the very successful Edina HS football team, last year. They played football through mid November.
They weren't skating regularly with the hockey team during football season. Sorry, bright eyes. Yet, somehow they still managed to be absolutely dominating come the beginning of the season. Too weird, huh, bright eyes?
Why do you think a kid MUST begin playing hockey in September, each year, other than "that's what has always been done at the youth level?" (even though we already debunked that, now haven't we?)

And please save us the diatribe about bitching and moaning. I was merely reacting to some of your ludicrous comments, such as the following. I truly couldn't care less when youth hockey begins, or that there are conflicts. Somehow they do seem to work out. But if there IS a dispute, hockey, and folks like you, are the problem.........not football.

Here you go.......straight from Mucky's mouth. These are all good for a laugher.

How about the idea that football starts their season a month earlier? That way football season can end in mid-September when hockey season begins?
Again, there is nothing stopping the football programs from starting up a month sooner. If they started in July rather than August, the season would be over by the end of September when most associations hold their tryouts. It's a win-win for everyone. The solution is incredibly simple. Instead of pointing the finger at hockey, maybe people should be questioning football.
Nobody is asking anyone to bend over backwards for them except for the football folks. In our association, we are talking MAYBE 1 or 2 kids per team. Our Boys Coordinator sent the tryout schedule to the Football coordinator in July, yet the football guy decided not to accomodate.
You ask why should football change to accomodate hockey? Simple answer, it's much simpler to adjust the date or time of a football practice than switching an hour of ice. You can hold football practice just about anywhere...
Besides, we are only talking about a month overlap, tops. Players may have to miss a football practice or game to attend a hockey tryout.
Have you ever had the job of trying to reschedule ice times? I have, and it ain't easy. Much harder than moving a football practice from this park, to that park.
It looks to me as if the football people are the ones being the most stubborn here and don't want to work with the hockey people.
You're not seriously trying to say the HS teams don't start skating until mid-November, are you???

[muckandgrind]

Wrong again......our local HS started their skates in September....September 14th (to be exact). Captain practices started in mid-October. And while they aren't mandatory (although just about every player is there), neither are Squirt and PeeWee practices when a kid has a conflict with football.

Let's see......coaches don't get access to their HS kids until mid-November, by MSHSL rule. Captain's practices a month before that? I doubt that, and if so, why?
Anders Lee, Budish, and more were on the very successful Edina HS football team, last year. They played football through mid November.
They weren't skating regularly with the hockey team during football season. Sorry, bright eyes. Yet, somehow they still managed to be absolutely dominating come the beginning of the season. Too weird, huh, bright eyes?
Why do you think a kid MUST begin playing hockey in September, each year, other than "that's what has always been done at the youth level?" (even though we already debunked that, now haven't we?)

And please save us the diatribe about bitching and moaning. I was merely reacting to some of your ludicrous comments, such as the following. I truly couldn't care less when youth hockey begins, or that there are conflicts. Somehow they do seem to work out. But if there IS a dispute, hockey, and folks like you, are the problem.........not football.

Here you go.......straight from Mucky's mouth. These are all good for a laugher.

How about the idea that football starts their season a month earlier? That way football season can end in mid-September when hockey season begins?
Again, there is nothing stopping the football programs from starting up a month sooner. If they started in July rather than August, the season would be over by the end of September when most associations hold their tryouts. It's a win-win for everyone. The solution is incredibly simple. Instead of pointing the finger at hockey, maybe people should be questioning football.
Nobody is asking anyone to bend over backwards for them except for the football folks. In our association, we are talking MAYBE 1 or 2 kids per team. Our Boys Coordinator sent the tryout schedule to the Football coordinator in July, yet the football guy decided not to accomodate.
You ask why should football change to accomodate hockey? Simple answer, it's much simpler to adjust the date or time of a football practice than switching an hour of ice. You can hold football practice just about anywhere...
Besides, we are only talking about a month overlap, tops. Players may have to miss a football practice or game to attend a hockey tryout.
Have you ever had the job of trying to reschedule ice times? I have, and it ain't easy. Much harder than moving a football practice from this park, to that park.
It looks to me as if the football people are the ones being the most stubborn here and don't want to work with the hockey people.
You're not seriously trying to say the HS teams don't start skating until mid-November, are you???

You don't think those Edina boys were doing any regular skating prior to the HS tryouts? You're absolutely clueless if that's what you believe. My bet is that they were skating, at a minimum, 4 hours a week during the summer at STPs and probably 2-3 hours a week during football season. And what about the HS Elite League? You don't think Lee and Budish were playing in that league? (No need to look it up - they both played for Team SouthWest) You did't actually believe they just hung up the skates during pigskin season, did do?

I never said that a kid MUST be playing hockey in September, they don't HAVE to do anything...including playing hockey. But the fact is that when I started playing youth hockey in 1974, warm-ups started in September and tryouts at the end of Sept - beginning of Oct. That was almost 35 years ago, and we were not the exception. Sure, in the days when they HAD to play outside because there were no indoor rinks, then hockey was a winter only sport, but the season then probably didn't start until the end of December and was only about 6 weeks long....but we have to go back 40-50 years ago for those days. Pre-Nixon era. Again, the Johnson A Bantam team from 1982-1983 went 75-5-1....you think THEY started playing in November after football was done??

If the football programs are paranoid about their best players missing a game due to hockey, then they need to work with the hockey programs when doing their game scheduling. I'm sure most, if not all, hockey programs would be willing to share their tryout schedules with them far in advance. And I agree with those who think that the hockey programs should be flexible with those players and allow them to miss a tryout if their is a football game/hockey tryout conflict. Our association is pretty flexible. One missed tryout is usually OK, anything more than that, however, and things could get pretty dicey.

[WayOutWest]

I never said that a kid MUST be playing hockey in September, they don't HAVE to do anything...including playing hockey. But the fact is that when I started playing youth hockey in 1974, warm-ups started in September and tryouts at the end of Sept - beginning of Oct. That was almost 35 years ago. Sure, in the days when they HAD to play outside because there were no indoor rinks, then hockey was a winter only sport, but the season then probably didn't start until the end of December and was only about 6 weeks long....but we have to go back 40-50 years ago for those days. Pre-Nixon era. Again, the Johnson A Bantam team from 1982-1983 went 75-5-1....you think THEY started playing in November after football was done??

I think you finally fired a synapse.
You're right!! A kid does NOT have to play hockey in September!! He needs not to, even to "keep pace."
That's the question, really, bright eyes. "Why do hockey associations believe they must play hockey for seven months?" The overlap problems that this thread refers to, could be greatly minimized if their season length would be more in line with many other youth sports.

[muckandgrind]

I never said that a kid MUST be playing hockey in September, they don't HAVE to do anything...including playing hockey. But the fact is that when I started playing youth hockey in 1974, warm-ups started in September and tryouts at the end of Sept - beginning of Oct. That was almost 35 years ago. Sure, in the days when they HAD to play outside because there were no indoor rinks, then hockey was a winter only sport, but the season then probably didn't start until the end of December and was only about 6 weeks long....but we have to go back 40-50 years ago for those days. Pre-Nixon era. Again, the Johnson A Bantam team from 1982-1983 went 75-5-1....you think THEY started playing in November after football was done??

I think you finally fired a synapse.
You're right!! A kid does NOT have to play hockey in September!! He needs not to, even to "keep pace."That's the question, really, bright eyes. "Why do hockey associations believe they must play hockey for seven months?" The overlap problems that this thread refers to, could be greatly minimized if their season length would be more in line with many other youth sports.

Ummmmm....you're wrong there. I'm not sure if it's the "chicken or the egg", but the best players usually play more hockey than just the standard season. Even Anders Lee and Zach Budish. The kids who don't do any skating outside of the season GENERALLY will get left behind after a while. I say "generally" because there are exceptions to that rule. But for the most part, that is the case.

Hockey associations believe they must play hockey for 7 months because that's what the players want!!! My God, is it that hard to get through your skull??? If there association membership (parents) felt differently, than I'm sure things would change. But there doesn't seam to be any outcry from parents (outside of football parents, that is) to shorten the season.

Hockey is a year round sport, not a winter sport and the sooner people like you come to grips with that the better. "Seasonal" sports (outside of football) are history. Baseball, Basketball, Hockey and Soccer can no longer be classified as spring, summer, fall or winter sports. I know kids who play baseball from April - October (7 months long!!!), I know kids who play basketball in the summer (who woulda thunk???), I know kids who play indoor soccer in the winter, not too mention fall and spring leagues (but wait, I thought soccer was a "summer sport"????)

[WayOutWest]

I'm not sure if it's the "chicken or the egg", but the best players usually play more hockey than just the standard season. The kids who don't do any skating outside of the season GENERALLY will get left behind after a while. I say "generally" because there are exceptions to that rule. But for the most part, that is the case.

Yeah, as soon as you attempt to validate your points with "usually's" and "generally's", any sense of credibility that you might have had, goes right in the toilet.

Hockey associations believe they must play hockey for 7 months because that's what the players want!!

LOL. Really? Where do the kids find the evaluation forms on which they supply such opinions?
Did you have a warehouse full of them to bolster your contention?

Hockey is a year round sport, not a winter sport and the sooner people like you come to grips with that the better. "Seasonal" sports (outside of football) are history. Baseball, Basketball, Hockey and Soccer can no longer be classified as spring, summer, fall or winter sports. I know kids who play baseball from April - October (7 months long!!!), I know kids who play basketball in the summer (who woulda thunk???), I know kids who play indoor soccer in the winter, not too mention fall and spring leagues (but wait, I thought soccer was a "summer sport"????)

Certainly, one can play a single sport year round. That doesn't mean one should, and it does not mean that a recreational association should set up their schedules for a seven month season. If "seasonal sports are history", and if any given kid "generally" needs to play a given sport year round just to keep pace, that would be unfortunate, for it would not give a kid a rounded sports background. Good thing for you, and for kids, that it is also fully incorrect. There are MANY multi-sport youth athletes, who excel in every sport they play, and they don't play them all.............year round. Start giving kids some credit.

[muckandgrind]

I'm not sure if it's the "chicken or the egg", but the best players usually play more hockey than just the standard season. The kids who don't do any skating outside of the season GENERALLY will get left behind after a while. I say "generally" because there are exceptions to that rule. But for the most part, that is the case.

Yeah, as soon as you attempt to validate your points with "usually's" and "generally's", any sense of credibility that you might have had, goes right in the toilet.

Hockey associations believe they must play hockey for 7 months because that's what the players want!!

LOL. Really? Where do the kids find the evaluation forms on which they supply such opinions?
Did you have a warehouse full of them to bolster your contention?

Hockey is a year round sport, not a winter sport and the sooner people like you come to grips with that the better. "Seasonal" sports (outside of football) are history. Baseball, Basketball, Hockey and Soccer can no longer be classified as spring, summer, fall or winter sports. I know kids who play baseball from April - October (7 months long!!!), I know kids who play basketball in the summer (who woulda thunk???), I know kids who play indoor soccer in the winter, not too mention fall and spring leagues (but wait, I thought soccer was a "summer sport"????)

Certainly, one can play a single sport year round. That doesn't mean one should, and it does not mean that a recreational association should set up their schedules for a seven month season. If "seasonal sports are history", and if any given kid "generally" needs to play a given sport year round just to keep pace, that would be unfortunate, for it would not give a kid a rounded sports background. Good thing for you, and for kids, that it is also fully incorrect. There are MANY multi-sport youth athletes, who excel in every sport they play, and they don't play them all.............year round. Start giving kids some credit.

Oh, I give kids PLENTY of credit...but for you to deny what is as plain as day, then you need to take the blinders off. The "usually's" and "generally's" have to be in there, because there are always exceptions to the rule...but just because there are exceptions, doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist.

Are you going to deny the fact that players who work to improve their game of hockey in the off-season don't get a leg up on the players that don't? Please tell me you don't think otherwise.

You can compare playing a sport to playing a musical instrument. With proper instruction, the more you practice at it, the better you get. The more you skate, the better skater you become. The more you shoot pucks, the better shooter you become. The more you stick handle, the better stick handler you become. It's really as simple as "A, B, C".

Why do you think the Roseau program is so powerful considering how small their town is? It ain't because their kids play baseball and football, I'll tell you that. It's because their ice time is tax payer funded and they have access to good ice and cheap hockey year round.

Kids don't have to play additional organized sports to be a well-rounded athlete. They can play sand lot football at the park and gain just as much, if not more, than they would playing organized football. They can play basketball at the park, they can ride their bike, they can play kick the can or tag, they can jog, they can play tennis, they can play street hockey, they can play soccer in the backyard, etc. The difference between hockey and these other sports is that skating is integral to the game and, obviously, that requires ice time.

Of course, there are many multi-sport athletes who excel (as you say), but even the ones you chose to use as an example (Lee and Budish) play hockey year round...why? Most likely they feel they must to keep their game sharp and continuoully improve...in addition to the fact that they probably have fun doing it.

The best hockey players play hockey year-round....how can you even argue that point????

LOL. Really? Where do the kids find the evaluation forms on which they supply such opinions?
Did you have a warehouse full of them to bolster your contention?

Right back at you...provide me some evidence that says a majority of hockey players would prefer to play a shorter season, because I haven't seen any evidence to support your arguement. Like I said, if the general sentiment of an association's membership was that the season is too long, don't you think they would do something to change it??? I've sat in on my board meetings through out the years and I have yet to see a parent come and an say "the season is too long, please shorten it".

[WayOutWest]

Right back at you...provide me some evidence that says a majority of hockey players would prefer to play a shorter season, because I haven't seen any evidence to support your arguement. Like I said, if the general sentiment of an association's membership was that the season is too long, don't you think they would do something to change it??? I've sat in on my board meetings through out the years and I have yet to see a parent come and an say "the season is too long, please shorten it".

YOU were the one making a contention, Muck, stating "kids want long seasons" with absolutely nothing to back it up. I made no contention. See the difference? I suppose not.

And, you were the one previously whining about sports overlap and contending that football should be more accommodating. If you are comfortable with conflicts, fine. But get off your high horse, thinking everyone should yield to a 7 month long youth hockey schedule.

[muckandgrind]

Right back at you...provide me some evidence that says a majority of hockey players would prefer to play a shorter season, because I haven't seen any evidence to support your arguement. Like I said, if the general sentiment of an association's membership was that the season is too long, don't you think they would do something to change it??? I've sat in on my board meetings through out the years and I have yet to see a parent come and an say "the season is too long, please shorten it".

YOU were the one making a contention, Muck, stating "kids want long seasons" with absolutely nothing to back it up. I made no contention. See the difference? I suppose not.

And, you were the one previously whining about sports overlap and contending that football should be more accommodating. If you are comfortable with conflicts, fine. But get off your high horse, thinking everyone should yield to a 7 month long youth hockey schedule.

You can easily draw the conclusion that the reason the season is as long as it is is because that's the way the players want it. If the majority of players and parents wanted a shorter season, then don't you think there would be a huge outcry to shorten the season? IS THIS THAT DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO COMPREHEND????

Me whining? Are you nuts? It's YOU that is whining about the overlap. I could care less. I'm fine with the system the way it is, it's you that is complaining and want the current system changed....which is fine, you're entitled to your opinion even though it's the minority opinion. If a kid wants to miss a hockey practice and go to a football game or vice-versa, fine with me.

[WayOutWest]

Kids don't have to play additional organized sports to be a well-rounded athlete. They can play sand lot football at the park and gain just as much, if not more, than they would playing organized football. They can play basketball at the park, they can ride their bike, they can play kick the can or tag, they can jog, they can play tennis, they can play street hockey, they can play soccer in the backyard, etc. The difference between hockey and these other sports is that skating is integral to the game and, obviously, that requires ice time.

LMAO.........oh, you are a hockey rube, aren't you?
Yep, organized football makes no sense whatsoever...... It's stunning that kids even waste their time with it, eh?
And hockey is the only sport which requires a specialized skill, huh?
Oh my........you just make things worse for yourself.

How do you account for the kids that actually WANT to be a well rounded athlete? Perhaps they WANT to excel in hockey AND football.........AND baseball.
Or, maybe they just want to play organized hockey for FUN, and NOT to become the next Gretzky. Perhaps they don't care to skate in June?
Sure, there are opportunities for the more serious hockey athletes to play year round. But, most youth programs have similar length calendars at every level.
Again..................why?

Oh, that's right.........because YOU said that the "kids want it that way."

[muckandgrind]

Kids don't have to play additional organized sports to be a well-rounded athlete. They can play sand lot football at the park and gain just as much, if not more, than they would playing organized football. They can play basketball at the park, they can ride their bike, they can play kick the can or tag, they can jog, they can play tennis, they can play street hockey, they can play soccer in the backyard, etc. The difference between hockey and these other sports is that skating is integral to the game and, obviously, that requires ice time.

LMAO.........oh, you are a hockey rube, aren't you?
Yep, organized football makes no sense whatsoever...... It's stunning that kids even waste their time with it, eh?
And hockey is the only sport which requires a specialized skill, huh?
Oh my........you just make things worse for yourself.

How do you account for the kids that actually WANT to be a well rounded athlete? Perhaps they WANT to excel in hockey AND football.........AND baseball.
Or, maybe they just want to play organized hockey for FUN, and NOT to become the next Gretzky. Perhaps they don't care to skate in June?
Sure, there are opportunities for the more serious hockey athletes to play year round. But, most youth programs have similar length calendars at every level.
Again..................why?

Oh, that's right.........because YOU said that the "kids want it that way."

I never said "organized football makes no sense", I just disputed your notion that in order for an athlete to be "well-rounded" they need to play multiple organized sports. Where has this proven to be the case? Some of the best athletes in the world are soccer players. Did THEY play multiple organized sports as a kid? My bet is no, especially not the one-named soccer players from Brazil...My bet is that they played soccer, period.

Where did I say that hockey is the only sport that requires a specialized skill? [You are losing the battle, hence the need to make stuff up]. What I said is that skating requires ice time. Do you dispute that?

Kids can do whatever they want. If they want to play every organized sport under the sun, fine. Do it. Nobody is telling them they can't.

[WayOutWest]

You can easily draw the conclusion that the reason the season is as long as it is is because that's the way the players want it.

No, YOU can easily draw that conclusion. But then again, YOU can draw the conclusion that the earth is round because "cylinders were already taken by soup cans."

It's YOU that is whining about the overlap.

Quote, please? Pssst.........you have nothing, and you don't understand who said what.

I could care less.

I assume you meant you "couldn't care less."
If you cannot manage simple English, you have NO business attempting to speak about "comprehension."

[WayOutWest]

Oh great. Now I have the grand honor of pointing out what you said.

I never said "organized football makes no sense."
They can play sand lot football at the park and gain just as much, if not more, than they would playing organized football.

What would you imagine organized football was for?

[muckandgrind]

Oh great. Now I have the grand honor of pointing out what you said.

I never said "organized football makes no sense."
They can play sand lot football at the park and gain just as much, if not more, than they would playing organized football.

What would you imagine organized football was for?

How does that translate into playing organized football "makes no sense"? All I said was that kids don't NEED to play organized football (or baseball, soccer, basketball, etc.) to be well-rounded athletes. Is that your position? That kids NEED to play organized sports to be well-rounded athletes? REALLY????? Playing sports, or excerising on their own doesn't fill the same need? Is that what you're saying? Please tell me that's not the case. In your world, for a kid to be a "well-rounded" athlete, they MUST play ORGANIZED sports, huh? What color is the sky in your world???

Do you organize your kids play time too? Make rules? How sad....because unstructured play is where creativity is born.

In my world, a kid doesn't have to play on a team and wear a jersey to be a "well-rounded" athlete. In my world, a kid can meet his buddies down at the park and play 4 on 4 football. They don't need a coach telling them what plays to run. They can make stuff up on the fly, play both offense and defense, and get more exercise in a couple of hours than a player wearing a jersey would get. They can do all this, and still be a "well-rounded" athlete. Then when they are done, they can kick a soccer ball around, or play hoops...but I guess, in your world, that doesn't count because they aren't playing in a league with a coach and jerseys. It MUST be organized, otherwise they aren't "well-rounded" athletes.

I assume you meant you "couldn't care less."
If you cannot manage simple English, you have NO business attempting to speak about "comprehension."

Oh,, you're another one of those guys who feel the need to point out grammatical errors on message boards. Not suprising though, those are usually the same people who can't win arguments on the merits and look for other areas to try and gain the upper hand. Sorry, doesn't work here. I'm sure you're also the type of guy who will point out spelling errors....be careful about throwing stones in glass houses...

It's YOU that is whining about the overlap.

Quote, please? Pssst.........you have nothing, and you don't understand who said what.

Here you go:

The question really is "why do they now HAVE to begin in September?"

Sounds like my kids: "Do I HAVE to go to bed now?" "Do I HAVE to eat my brocoli?" "Do I HAVE to do my homework?"

[WayOutWest]

All I said was that kids don't NEED to play organized football (or baseball, soccer, basketball, etc.) to be well-rounded athletes.

In my world, a kid doesn't have to play on a team and wear a jersey to be a "well-rounded" athlete. In my world, a kid can meet his buddies down at the park and play 4 on 4 football. They don't need a coach telling them what plays to run. They can make stuff up on the fly, play both offense and defense, and get more exercise in a couple of hours than a player wearing a jersey would get. They can do all this, and still be a "well-rounded" athlete.

I do believe a kid needs coaching and organization to properly learn the rules, strategy, and proper practice and conditioning for any given sport, yes. Sure, they can get as much exercise on their own. But to imply that coaching is not needed at all is beyond ludicrous.

Oh,, you're another one of those guys who feel the need to point out grammatical errors on message boards.

Only when it seems to belie your "point." You stated you "could care less." That means you actually care, which was apparently NOT your intention. It's like stating "It's raining." when you intended to state "It's not raining." Your "grammar" was actually perfect.

It's YOU that is whining about the overlap.

Quote, please? Pssst.........you have nothing, and you don't understand who said what.

Here you go:

The question really is "why do they now HAVE to begin in September?"

Sounds like my kids: "Do I HAVE to go to bed now?" "Do I HAVE to eat my brocoli?" "Do I HAVE to do my homework?"

That's not whining. It's a simple question, which you apparently cannot answer. I couldn't care less if youth hockey starts in September. I just have never heard a justification for it. Did you have one?
And it is no surprise that your kids whine to you. After all........

Kids don't have to play additional organized sports to be a well-rounded athlete. They can play sand lot football at the park and gain just as much, if not more, than they would playing organized football. They can play basketball at the park, they can ride their bike, they can play kick the can or tag, they can jog, they can play tennis, they can play street hockey, they can play soccer in the backyard, etc. The difference between hockey and these other sports is that skating is integral to the game and, obviously, that requires ice time.

So, the difference is that hockey requires ice time? So? Tennis requires a court. Basketball requires a hoop. Each sport requires some kind of specialized equipment/environment. "Ice time" need NOT be indoors. (Psssttt......sometimes, it magically just appears on lakes in the winter.)

[muckandgrind]

All I said was that kids don't NEED to play organized football (or baseball, soccer, basketball, etc.) to be well-rounded athletes.

In my world, a kid doesn't have to play on a team and wear a jersey to be a "well-rounded" athlete. In my world, a kid can meet his buddies down at the park and play 4 on 4 football. They don't need a coach telling them what plays to run. They can make stuff up on the fly, play both offense and defense, and get more exercise in a couple of hours than a player wearing a jersey would get. They can do all this, and still be a "well-rounded" athlete.

I do believe a kid needs coaching and organization to properly learn the rules, strategy, and proper practice and conditioning for any given sport, yes. Sure, they can get as much exercise on their own. But to imply that coaching is not needed at all is beyond ludicrous.

If that player wants to excel in that particular sport, sure, good coaching is important. If a kids wants to be a great football player, then yes, he'll need good coaching along the way. But in terms of being a "well-rounded athlete", than no, it's not as important. Like I said before, there are many things a kid can do to improve his athleticism that don't require them to sign up for a sport and put on a jersey. Are you still disputing this fact?

Just curious, what athletic skill does football require and can build on that hockey can't? Speed? No. Strength? No. Quickness? No. Game sense? No. Balance? No. Agility? No. Endurance? No. All these skills are also hockey-related. There is nothing unique that a football player brings to the rink that a hockey player can't build on playing hockey or being active on their own.

Let's face it...kids want to play football (and all aports) because it's fun. Which is the right reason. But just because a kid plays football doesn't mean that they will be a more "well-rounded" athlete than another hockey player who doesn't play football. Don't try and justify it any other way. They play sports because they enjoy them. Playing one sport doesn't necessarily make you better in another one. What it does is give that kid different athletic experiences, which is great for them.

Not all kids even want to play multiple sports, does that make them less of an athlete in your eyes? What about the kid who only enjoys playing organized (and unorganized) hockey? Is something wrong with them?

It's YOU that is whining about the overlap.

Quote, please? Pssst.........you have nothing, and you don't understand who said what.

Here you go:

The question really is "why do they now HAVE to begin in September?"

Sounds like my kids: "Do I HAVE to go to bed now?" "Do I HAVE to eat my brocoli?" "Do I HAVE to do my homework?"

That's not whining. It's a simple question, which you apparently cannot answer. I couldn't care less if youth hockey starts in September. I just have never heard a justification for it. Did you have one?
And it is no surprise that your kids whine to you. After all........

Why does it even need to be justified? Why does football start in August? Why does baseball start in April? Why does the sun rise in the East and set in the West?

It's because September is traditionally the time when hockey really ramps up at every level: Youth, HS (elite leagues and team skates), college and pro ALL start their camps and warm-ups around the same time.

I know you'll jump on the word "traditionally", but over the past 35 -40 years this has been the "tradition"...deny it all you like. It's a fact.

Kids don't have to play additional organized sports to be a well-rounded athlete. They can play sand lot football at the park and gain just as much, if not more, than they would playing organized football. They can play basketball at the park, they can ride their bike, they can play kick the can or tag, they can jog, they can play tennis, they can play street hockey, they can play soccer in the backyard, etc. The difference between hockey and these other sports is that skating is integral to the game and, obviously, that requires ice time.

So, the difference is that hockey requires ice time? So? Tennis requires a court. Basketball requires a hoop. Each sport requires some kind of specialized equipment/environment. "Ice time" need NOT be indoors. (Psssttt......sometimes, it magically just appears on lakes in the winter.)

Little difference there, buddy. You can't skate on ice outdoors in the summer. In the winter, you only get about 6 good weeks of outdoor ice. Just as a basketball player needs to head indoors in the winter, a hockey player needs to head indoors in the summer. Is this that difficult for you to grasp??

[WayOutWest]

That's not whining. It's a simple question, which you apparently cannot answer. I couldn't care less if youth hockey starts in September. I just have never heard a justification for it. Did you have one?
And it is no surprise that your kids whine to you. After all........

Why does it even need to be justified? Why does football start in August? Why does baseball start in April? Why does the sun rise in the East and set in the West?

Well, this is the crux of the whole issue in this thread, isn't it? Yet, it still seems to escape you.
You have stated that you can't understand why football organizations don't cooperate more with hockey associations, when there are conflicts.
I'd have to think that football organizations wouldn't take hockey associations seriously when they come to them and ask THEM to move a practice in SEPTEMBER, so that a hockey tryout can be well attended.
THEY might ask you why your season must be more than twice their season's length, why you need to begin in September, and considering such, how you think you have the juevo's to ask THEM to accommodate you.
YOU'LL explain to them that "this is the way it has always been."
Brilliant!!!!
I guess that's justification enough...........for YOU.
Good luck with the whole cooperation thing. You haven't a chance in the world, unless you come up with something more than that.

[muckandgrind]

That's not whining. It's a simple question, which you apparently cannot answer. I couldn't care less if youth hockey starts in September. I just have never heard a justification for it. Did you have one?
And it is no surprise that your kids whine to you. After all........

Why does it even need to be justified? Why does football start in August? Why does baseball start in April? Why does the sun rise in the East and set in the West?

Well, this is the crux of the whole issue in this thread, isn't it? Yet, it still seems to escape you.
You have stated that you can't understand why football organizations don't cooperate more with hockey associations, when there are conflicts.
I'd have to think that football organizations wouldn't take hockey associations seriously when they come to them and ask THEM to move a practice in SEPTEMBER, so that a hockey tryout can be well attended.
THEY might ask you why your season must be more than twice their season's length, why you need to begin in September, and considering such, how you think you have the juevo's to ask THEM to accommodate you.
YOU'LL explain to them that "this is the way it has always been."
Brilliant!!!!
I guess that's justification enough...........for YOU.
Good luck with the whole cooperation thing. You haven't a chance in the world, unless you come up with something more than that.

"More than twice the length"...REALLY?

Football season: August - November = 3 months
Hockey season: September - February = 5 months

Not quite "more than twice the length", huh Chachi?

Again, for the millionth time, the football programs are only hurting themselves if they don't adjust. Fair or not, kids WILL miss football to attend a hockey tryout (if that particular hockey association requires they be there). Knowing that, don't you think it only makes sense for the football program to be conscious of that so they don't run into the possibility of losing their best player for a game?? They are only cutting off their nose to spite their collective faces by ignoring that fact.

The hockey season is not going to change!! No matter how much you whine, b1tch and moan, September will ALWAYS be the traditional "start" to association hockey...Call it "Hockey Arrogance" or whatever you like, but it is what it is.......WHY can't you comprehend that simple fact?

Another thing, you like to constantly point out that the HS season doesn't start until mid-November. Comparing HS to youth is comparing apples and oranges. Youth hockey doesn't run 1.5 - 2 hour practices M-F. If they did, maybe the youth season WOULD be shorter.

HS = 8-10 hours minimum practice time per week + preseason skates
Youth = 5-6 hours maximum practice time per week (upper levels), 4-5 hours maximum practice time per week (lower levels)

Does this clear things up a little for ya, or are you STILL confused??

[WayOutWest]

Again, for the millionth time, the football programs are only hurting themselves if they don't adjust. Fair or not, kids WILL miss football to attend a hockey tryout (if that particular hockey association requires they be there). Knowing that, don't you think it only makes sense for the football program to be conscious of that so they don't run into the possibility of losing their best player for a game?? They are only cutting off their nose to spite their collective faces by ignoring that fact.


Does this clear things up a little for ya......

Thanks for again highlighting your problem.
Yep, you're absolutely right. You've changed my mind.
I think football (and all other sports) should entirely adjust to accommodate hockey, and certainly not vice-versa. Conflicts only damage those sports that conflict with hockey, never hockey itself.
Football can begin in May and wrap up in August, thus freeing up any chance of conflicts, unless the local hockey association decides to start in July, instead. Who cares that football "has always begun" in August? Who the heck do those football organizers think they are?

Again, as much as you might think I am "whining", I truly couldn't care less. I was just looking for a reason, which in endless posts, you still haven't provided. (Sorry, "it has always been that way" doesn't qualify, and it is also not correct.)

I've heard enough from you, Junior. Can you put your Daddy back on the computer?

[muckandgrind]

Again, for the millionth time, the football programs are only hurting themselves if they don't adjust. Fair or not, kids WILL miss football to attend a hockey tryout (if that particular hockey association requires they be there). Knowing that, don't you think it only makes sense for the football program to be conscious of that so they don't run into the possibility of losing their best player for a game?? They are only cutting off their nose to spite their collective faces by ignoring that fact.


Does this clear things up a little for ya......

Thanks for again highlighting your problem.
Yep, you're absolutely right. You've changed my mind.
I think football (and all other sports) should entirely adjust to accommodate hockey, and certainly not vice-versa. Conflicts only damage those sports that conflict with hockey, never hockey itself.
Football can begin in May and wrap up in August, thus freeing up any chance of conflicts, unless the local hockey association decides to start in July, instead. Who cares that football "has always begun" in August? Who the heck do those football organizers think they are?

Again, as much as you might think I am "whining", I truly couldn't care less. I was just looking for a reason, which in endless posts, you still haven't provided. (Sorry, "it has always been that way" doesn't qualify, and it is also not correct.)

Oh really???? How far back do you have to go in order for that to "not be correct"?? 45+ years? It IS correct and you can't back up your position that is isn't. You just continue to hang on to the romantic (yet false) notions that each sport season is supposed to be only 3 months long.

Listen, football can do whatever it wants. I really don't give a rat's @ss. If they are fine with having players skip football to go to hockey tryouts, why are we even having this discussion?

Baseball tryouts occur during hockey season....yet there is no complaining about that from hockey parents. Why is that???

[rudy]

Star Tribune uses Budish case as illustration:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/preps ... anchO7DiUJ

And here's a poll:

http://www.startribune.com/polls/357941 ... anchO7DiUJ