White Bear Lake-Ups and Downs

BarryMcConnell · Post by **BarryMcConnell** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:22 pm

mustangman (must be your "real" name), As a youth coach in WB and someone who has been involved with WB hockey for 25+ years it pains me to watch our "top" level not succeed or compete. These kids have learned this game we all love and have succeeded at every level on the way up but when they get to Sager it all gets flushed down the toilet. It's a shame. Kids (past and present) along with coaches from the next levels (juniors/college) have commented on how kids leaving Sager's teams are not ready for that next step. It's a disservice to all the kids who have gone through his "system" that we in WB do not have a capable coach at that level.
Also, when Sager came to us, as youth coaches, and told us "the youth program and the varsity program are two completely seperate entities" and he does not need us, I think we have a right to be upset. And yes, I was there when it was said. Straight from the donkey's mouth. If I remember correctly it was about the same time the logo on the varsity jersey was changed to be different from the youth's. This type of action makes pioneerprideguy very happy!!
Maybe you as the self-described "real hockey people" can bring some insight into my life and explain to me what he and his band of misfit coaches have done good for WB hockey and/or the kids he's coached.
p.s. How are those Mustangs doing in the youth?? Well at least they have credibility!!

wbmd · Post by **wbmd** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:35 pm

BarryMcConnell wrote:mustangman (must be your "real" name), As a youth coach in WB and someone who has been involved with WB hockey for 25+ years it pains me to watch our "top" level not succeed or compete. These kids have learned this game we all love and have succeeded at every level on the way up but when they get to Sager it all gets flushed down the toilet. It's a shame. Kids (past and present) along with coaches from the next levels (juniors/college) have commented on how kids leaving Sager's teams are not ready for that next step. It's a disservice to all the kids who have gone through his "system" that we in WB do not have a capable coach at that level.
Also, when Sager came to us, as youth coaches, and told us "the youth program and the varsity program are two completely seperate entities" and he does not need us, I think we have a right to be upset. And yes, I was there when it was said. Straight from the donkey's mouth. If I remember correctly it was about the same time the logo on the varsity jersey was changed to be different from the youth's. This type of action makes pioneerprideguy very happy!!
Maybe you as the self-described "real hockey people" can bring some insight into my life and explain to me what he and his band of misfit coaches have done good for WB hockey and/or the kids he's coached.
p.s. How are those Mustangs doing in the youth?? Well at least they have credibility!!

Basically nothing at all - except for a lot of disappointments to the entire White Bear hockey program.

blanco oso · Post by **blanco oso** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:53 pm

as much as i hate to say it, i do have to give sager some credit when it comes to playoff times. WB hasnt been blown out in sections in the 4 years ive been to a game, and has lost respectively(yes they lost) but i repeat RESPECTIVELY to hill murray in the few years theyve played after getting whomped in the regular season. and no losing to hm isnt ok with me and i wont settle for it, but i mean, something clicks with the team in sections and hopefully this year(with a little help from hills unfortunate events) they can make it to the dance

hockeyxfan01 · Post by **hockeyxfan01** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:12 pm

blanco oso wrote:as much as i hate to say it, i do have to give sager some credit when it comes to playoff times. WB hasnt been blown out in sections in the 4 years ive been to a game, and has lost respectively(yes they lost) but i repeat RESPECTIVELY to hill murray in the few years theyve played after getting whomped in the regular season. and no losing to hm isnt ok with me and i wont settle for it, but i mean, something clicks with the team in sections and hopefully this year(with a little help from hills unfortunate events) they can make it to the dance

You can't necessarily give that credit to Sager... it could very well just be the players stepping up on their own because its section time. I'm not saying he has nothing to do with it, just that there are other factors.

blanco oso · Post by **blanco oso** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:53 pm

hockeyxfan01 wrote:
blanco oso wrote:as much as i hate to say it, i do have to give sager some credit when it comes to playoff times. WB hasnt been blown out in sections in the 4 years ive been to a game, and has lost respectively(yes they lost) but i repeat RESPECTIVELY to hill murray in the few years theyve played after getting whomped in the regular season. and no losing to hm isnt ok with me and i wont settle for it, but i mean, something clicks with the team in sections and hopefully this year(with a little help from hills unfortunate events) they can make it to the dance
You can't necessarily give that credit to Sager... it could very well just be the players stepping up on their own because its section time. I'm not saying he has nothing to do with it, just that there are other factors.

yah i understand that but you gotta believe the coach has something to do with it...i mean its obviously more of the seniors really stepping up and all that team chemistry but coaching really gets taken serious as well

Post by **karl(east)** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:53 pm

blanco oso wrote:as much as i hate to say it, i do have to give sager some credit when it comes to playoff times. WB hasnt been blown out in sections in the 4 years ive been to a game, and has lost respectively(yes they lost) but i repeat RESPECTIVELY to hill murray in the few years theyve played after getting whomped in the regular season. and no losing to hm isnt ok with me and i wont settle for it, but i mean, something clicks with the team in sections and hopefully this year(with a little help from hills unfortunate events) they can make it to the dance

I don't think "respectively" means what you think it means. It means "in that order," as in, "White Bear's two most recent losses have been to Roseville and Duluth East, respectively." The word you're probably looking for is "respectfully" or, perhaps even better, "by a respectable margin."

OK, grammar lesson over. As for the the the topic at hand, regarding Sager...I'm staying as far away as I can.

Minn State of Mind · Post by **Minn State of Mind** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:10 pm

blanco oso wrote:as much as i hate to say it, i do have to give sager some credit when it comes to playoff times. WB hasnt been blown out in sections in the 4 years ive been to a game, and has lost respectively(yes they lost) but i repeat RESPECTIVELY to hill murray in the few years theyve played after getting whomped in the regular season. and no losing to hm isnt ok with me and i wont settle for it, but i mean, something clicks with the team in sections and hopefully this year(with a little help from hills unfortunate events) they can make it to the dance

And make it what? 0-17? 0-18? Some ridiculous number like that.

blanco oso · Post by **blanco oso** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:48 pm

Minn State of Mind wrote:
blanco oso wrote:as much as i hate to say it, i do have to give sager some credit when it comes to playoff times. WB hasnt been blown out in sections in the 4 years ive been to a game, and has lost respectively(yes they lost) but i repeat RESPECTIVELY to hill murray in the few years theyve played after getting whomped in the regular season. and no losing to hm isnt ok with me and i wont settle for it, but i mean, something clicks with the team in sections and hopefully this year(with a little help from hills unfortunate events) they can make it to the dance
And make it what? 0-17? 0-18? Some ridiculous number like that.

cant win one until you get there. id rather have a shot at it then not go at all

HOCKEY SCOUT · Post by **HOCKEY SCOUT** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:54 pm

25 years as a youth coach. I respect that. I do not respect your ripping into a guy that I can tell you first hand has great credibility and respect from people at the next level. He is one of the premier coaches at the H.S. level. sagers teams have gone to 2 state tourneys in the last 6 years. The wb program has gone to 17 tourneys total. How many years has the program been around? 50 years? Not a bad percentage.

That being said the talent level the last 2 years has been way down from past years. Hill has much more talent. They still do this year, not close really. I believe he has done more with less the last couple of years then he gets credit for.

P.S. I have over 45 years in hockey, played at the N.H.L. level, coached at almost all levels including division I. The man knows hockey and is great for his kids and his program. You don't want to hear it because you have an axe to grind.

Thats what a person with hockey knowledge knows to be true. I love that you are a youth coach, but if I was MR. Sager I would be looking to make a few changes at the youth level.

My two cents.

MedleyWR · Post by **MedleyWR** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:48 pm

HOCKEY SCOUT wrote:25 years as a youth coach. I respect that. I do not respect your ripping into a guy that I can tell you first hand has great credibility and respect from people at the next level. He is one of the premier coaches at the H.S. level. sagers teams have gone to 2 state tourneys in the last 6 years. The wb program has gone to 17 tourneys total. How many years has the program been around? 50 years? Not a bad percentage.

That being said the talent level the last 2 years has been way down from past years. Hill has much more talent. They still do this year, not close really. I believe he has done more with less the last couple of years then he gets credit for.

P.S. I have over 45 years in hockey, played at the N.H.L. level, coached at almost all levels including division I. The man knows hockey and is great for his kids and his program. You don't want to hear it because you have an axe to grind.

Thats what a person with hockey knowledge knows to be true. I love that you are a youth coach, but if I was MR. Sager I would be looking to make a few changes at the youth level.

My two cents.

I cannot vouch for Mr Sager as a great hockey coach. I am not qualified to make an X's and O's assessment. But, what I can vouch for is his leadership and character development abilities. Mr Sager is an educator and I believe he takes that responsibility seriously. He is entrusted with the development of these young men, not only as hockey players but as citizens, as well. Mr Sager, and Mr Jackson (who has also been subject to abuse on this forum) develop these boys into outstanding young men. I do not want that sacrificed in order to win a few more games.

HOCKEY SCOUT · Post by **HOCKEY SCOUT** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:29 pm

Thank you Medley. We need more people with common sense like you to speak up. I knew we had good hockey people on this site that want to talk hockey and have fun. We don't need to bash people.

midwesthockeyscout · Post by **midwesthockeyscout** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:50 pm

Although I do not know Coach Sager on a personal note, I do know a bit of his background. Although I have only caught a couple WBL games this year, there are some methods to his madness that I question, such as penalty kill scheme, but, let's face it folks, Sager was a two-sport collegiate athlete, has a NCAA National Championship ring to his credit while playing at Wisconsin in the early 80s, and has been part of successful programs, including as a coach at WBL and a player at Cretin.

He has hockey knowledge. He seems to do good things, takes risks - some are successful, some back fire, but most coaches have this issue.

Let's just make this assessment clear.

As long as Hill-Murray has the ability to pull in kids with recruitment opportunities, WBL may always be second best in the section, and that's not Sager's fault. I believe I overheard someone during the Schwan's Cup say that WBL lost one kid to Hill this past season. How many did Stillwater lose? How many has Mounds View lost? How many has the Tartan association lost? Woodbury?? Less kids defect from WBL to Hill than any other program and that's a testament to the program Sager runs, and to the history of the WBL program.

I am seeing more and more kids from Wayzata defect to Blake. The Richfield, Bloomington kids jumping to AHA, and Benilde St. Margaret. There are Woodbury, Cottage Grove kids jumping to Cretin, St. Thomas... all these private schools are getting stronger. In some respects, my opinion about the transfer rule is HURTING the public school athletics, because those families that envision their child playing for a Hill or an AHA, and don't make those teams, now are hamstrung from going back to their local HS to play without having to sit out a year.

midwesthockeyscout · Post by **midwesthockeyscout** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:55 pm

Let me just follow this up...

On a different posting all together, there was mention about the hockey talent being down in Minnesota. Even though I just watch goalies, the top tier talent is as good as ever with Pitlick, Mattson, Lee and Everson to name some...

BUT, as I mention, when I read in Charlie Walters Pioneer Press column that Hill had 90+ players trying out for 38 spots, you mean to tell me that if even 20-25 of those kids were good enough to play HS hockey that spread back into their public high schools, there were be even better competitive hockey?? You bet there would be... That's why I say this transfer rule hurts public schools more than helps.

blanco oso · Post by **blanco oso** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:07 pm

ive been posting both sides about sager. and i do know sager AND jackson on a personal note, and can vouch that sager does help boys mature...and jackson really did. i played for jackson and can tell you he does make a difference. you dont see it when you play for him, but after the fact you kinda look back and see how much youve changed. now as for sager(being a teacher at the north campus)which is my next point,he ALSO was a great teacher and supporter of the kids there. my main point that this leads me to is WBL has split campus. chemistry is hard to get when you only see half of your JV and Varsity squad at school. school is where you see most of your friends and talk it up and what not. at wb its sophs and freshmen, and then juniors and seniors. chemistry is stressed and is especially a big factor in hockey, because if you have birki and wallin with wolters, they only see eachother in practice. yes its got talent, but you can see the difference with the line of swanson and lowell and slator and how much better they work together!
my two cents...

Post by **karl(east)** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:30 pm

midwesthockeyscout wrote:I am seeing more and more kids from Wayzata defect to Blake. The Richfield, Bloomington kids jumping to AHA, and Benilde St. Margaret. There are Woodbury, Cottage Grove kids jumping to Cretin, St. Thomas... all these private schools are getting stronger. In some respects, my opinion about the transfer rule is HURTING the public school athletics, because those families that envision their child playing for a Hill or an AHA, and don't make those teams, now are hamstrung from going back to their local HS to play without having to sit out a year.

This is a very, very intriguing point. It'd be interesting to study this in depth and see exactly how much tryout numbers have changed at private schools and the publics nearby. It's an entirely plausible scenario, and one that the MSHSL should probably look at.

midwesthockeyscout · Post by **midwesthockeyscout** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:01 pm

[quote="blanco oso"]ive been posting both sides about sager. and i do there. my main point that this leads me to is WBL has split campus. chemistry is hard to get when you only see half of your JV and Varsity squad at school. school is where you see most of your friends and talk it up and what not. at wb its sophs and freshmen, and then juniors and seniors. ]

I don't get into the small details of campus issues, but, you are absolutely correct that a split campus has got to have a huge affect on all factors of sports and general friendships.

HOCKEY SCOUT · Post by **HOCKEY SCOUT** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:02 pm

These are all good points. Sager is a very good high school coach and probably a better person. I deal with coaches all of the time and he is among the best at selling his kids to us. I will also say this, the white bear kids that come out of his program are much more ready for the next level than most. White Bear kids have a knowledge of all facets of hockey that we do not see from alot of kids. Great work ethic and little things like neutral ice play make a big difference to us. Look at last years team and tell me at the end they weren't playing some great hockey. His teams usually peak at playoff time and they compete hard. The kids and parents at White Bear should be very happy with theircoach and proud of their kids. This program is falling off like most older school districts because numbers aren't what they used to be.

I have to run but enjoyed the dialogue.

Lets keep it to good hockey talk and stop bashing kids and coaches, we are all better than that.

midwesthockeyscout · Post by **midwesthockeyscout** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:12 pm

This is a very, very intriguing point. It'd be interesting to study this in depth and see exactly how much tryout numbers have changed at private schools and the publics nearby. It's an entirely plausible scenario, and one that the MSHSL should probably look at.[/quote]

I think a more plausible study would be to see how many kids quit playing hockey after not making a private school team.

Post by **karl(east)** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:15 pm

midwesthockeyscout wrote:This is a very, very intriguing point. It'd be interesting to study this in depth and see exactly how much tryout numbers have changed at private schools and the publics nearby. It's an entirely plausible scenario, and one that the MSHSL should probably look at.[/quote]

I think a more plausible study would be to see how many kids quit playing hockey after not making a private school team.

Sure...but if we're testing the effects of the current transfer rule, we need something to compare it with, don't we?

Pioneerprideguy · Post by **Pioneerprideguy** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:15 am

I have to laugh at several things. First is the topic of the transfer rule. I thought everyone claimed that private schools had such an advantage under the old system and when the new rule went into effect, everyone celebrated. They believed the end of private school success was at hand. Now some of you are saying the transfer rule may now actually benefit private schools? Come on people, make up your minds!

We all enjoy giving ourselves our own screen name on this site. Some have been pretty creative & others may just tend to show a flavor to our favorite prep team. It's all in fun. I laughed out loud when reading someone's post who appears to take himself wayyyy too serious with his screen name and even went so far to list his/hers hockey credentials.

A teenager in his parent's basement can make the same claim...lighten up Francis!

Keep posting responses but leave the "resume`" on the front desk.

Back on the topic at hand. Lechner is a bright man/coach. He realized that he has owned WB the last several years and he understands that people at WB may be looking for a coaching change sometime soon. Lech understands his program is stronger with Sager still at the helm at WB. Sometimes you have to throw a dog a bone just to keep him around and that's what Lech did this year. WB will win the section this year, quiet the troops plotting against him, and guarantee HM's future success.

BarryMcConnell · Post by **BarryMcConnell** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:10 am

What does it take to be a self-described "hockey people"? Apparentely I have missed the boat on that subject. Sorry I did not play in the NHL and my playing resume' may not be as grand as all of yours but when the subject at hand is WHY IS WB HOCKEY SO INCONSISTENT then I think, as a "hockey person" I have the right to spill my thoughts on the subject. I still to this day have never went after Sager's playing career. Congrats to him for being a good high school hockey player and then walking on to a very difficult Wisconsin (D1) team and being part of a National Championship team. Congratulations, your playing days are done and it's time to focus on something else. If credit is due I will pass that on too.

I think I've said this before too but I'm not going to look at the inconsistencies of this team and blame it on the talent of the kids because I have seen all of these kids suceed at all levels. Yes, WB does lose kids to Hill, Totino, St. Thomas, MPA/SPA and other private schools. Trust me, the talent is there and deep enough.......I'VE SEEN IT.

I cannot give credit to a "coach" who consistantly lies to the kids, plays extreme mind games with them and cannont beat a quality team. I won't mention the kids name but when a senior trying out (who has put 2 years of his life into the JV system) gets injured before tryouts and asks the coach what he should do he should get an honest answer. He was told "don't worry about it, we've seen you the past few years and you'll be fine" then he gets cut on the last day. Have the common courtesy to be honest with the kid. If you're not going to keep him let him know instead of crushing his dreams. Oh, and that type of news should come from the "head coach" not passed down from an assistant.

Name the last quality team Sager and his clan of beat. I haven't seen one this year. 8 Losses on the season already....that's not WB hockey but since Sager has came along it's now the norm. And I'm still not buying that the talent is not there (have I mentioned that?).

In closing....Mr. NHL Super Scout I ask you, who was the last kid to be promoted by Sager to the next level that has succeeded? How 'bout just promoted, we'll leave succeeding out of it! No names to the Elite league, kids ask for letters to be sent out and he denies them. That's a quality guy right there if you ask me!!

The inconsistant play is due to the lack of coaching at the high school level in WB. Final answer.

Post by **karl(east)** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:17 am

BarryMcConnell wrote: Name the last quality team Sager and his clan of beat.

Centennial, in the Schwan Cup.

wbmd · Post by **wbmd** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:00 am

BarryMcConnell wrote:The inconsistant play is due to the lack of coaching at the high school level in WB. Final answer.

And an excellent final answer at that!!

mustangman · Post by **mustangman** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:02 am

didn't they beat Centennial? These guys just keep making themselves look bad. the scout seems much more mature at least then Barry. It sounds like Barry is the kid with a problem in his basement. Keep slinging the mud. All I know is this, the guy that has coached 2 seperate teams to the state tournament has it done it 2 more times than you and me

and I would trust him. We would trade you in a heartbeat coach for coach.

wbmd · Post by **wbmd** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:02 am

BarryMcConnell wrote:8 Losses on the season already....that's not WB hockey but since Sager has came along it's now the norm. And I'm still not buying that the talent is not there (have I mentioned that?).

The norm used to average around 5 losses per season with the other better coaches White Bear has had. Sager is averaging close to 11 losses per season lately.