AA Rankings for 2/12/12

[KrautBache]

But your statement that Edina's "strength of schedule is so much stronger than Eagan's" deserves a closer look. As I've said before, I think that there is only a negligible difference between the teams that are currently ranked 7-12. Besides the teams that Edina has lost to (MG and Tonka), how is Edina's schedule "so much stronger" this year?

http://www.minnhock.com/strength.htm

I'm guessing the difference on this link can be attributed to 5 games: the two games against MG and the three games against Tonka. Edina is 1-4 in those games. So I'll repeat, besides MG and Tonka, how is Edina's schedule "so much stronger" this year? I don't think this link answers that question, does it?

[HShockeywatcher]

But your statement that Edina's "strength of schedule is so much stronger than Eagan's" deserves a closer look. As I've said before, I think that there is only a negligible difference between the teams that are currently ranked 7-12. Besides the teams that Edina has lost to (MG and Tonka), how is Edina's schedule "so much stronger" this year?

http://www.minnhock.com/strength.htm

I'm guessing the difference on this link can be attributed to 5 games: the two games against MG and the three games against Tonka. Edina is 1-4 in those games. So I'll repeat, besides MG and Tonka, how is Edina's schedule "so much stronger" this year? I don't think this link answers that question, does it?

[green4]

And if Edina would of came to Eagan to play this year and played the Home and Home schedule that was set up last year, no one would be having this discussion. Instead Edina opted out and Eagan had to find someone else to fill out their schedule this year. I for one have no problem with waiting and finding out who is going to x-cel then taking up this conversation.

Now, now, H22...there's no proof that it was Edina that opted out because they didn't want to return the favor and play an away game at Eagan, is there?

Those soft Wildcats...with their soft schedule, went out and replaced a home game against Edina with…an away game at #9 Hill-Murray. Slackers!

Anybody know who the Hornets picked up on their schedule instead of the Wildcats? With their burly, manly ultra-tough schedule, it must have been a Top-Top-Super-Top team, right?

Hmmm...let's take a look. Two non-conf games against Buffalo? Nope, they did that last year too. Ah, I see…guess it's a multiple choice question. Instead of playing Eagan, the Edina Hornets filled the empty early-season slot with either (a) Eastview, (b) @ Lakeville South, or (c) @ Anoka.

Ole!

One game against Buffalo is a tournament game that they compete in every year and Buffalo comes down here in the 2nd one and basically goes around playing the whole Classic Lake, they have played Ep, tonka, wayzata and Edina. Buffalo has a harder schedule then Eagan if you ask me

[green4]

But your statement that Edina's "strength of schedule is so much stronger than Eagan's" deserves a closer look. As I've said before, I think that there is only a negligible difference between the teams that are currently ranked 7-12. Besides the teams that Edina has lost to (MG and Tonka), how is Edina's schedule "so much stronger" this year?

http://www.minnhock.com/strength.htm

I'm guessing the difference on this link can be attributed to 5 games: the two games against MG and the three games against Tonka. Edina is 1-4 in those games. So I'll repeat, besides MG and Tonka, how is Edina's schedule "so much stronger" this year? I don't think this link answers that question, does it?

Answered that for you already, obviously you missed it or something
"they play Minnetonka 3 times EP 3 times Wayzata twice, Grand Rapids, Elk River Maple Grove twice, Burnsville and Lakeville South"

[hshockeyfan8]

Anyone know what the second tie-breaker is for the Lake Confernce as there will possibly be an Edina-Tonka or Edina-EP tie?

[almostashappy]

Hmmm...let's take a look. Two non-conf games against Buffalo? Nope, they did that last year too. Ah, I see…guess it's a multiple choice question. Instead of playing Eagan, the Edina Hornets filled the empty early-season slot with either (a) Eastview, (b) @ Lakeville South, or (c) @ Anoka.

Ole!

One game against Buffalo is a tournament game that they compete in every year and Buffalo comes down here in the 2nd one and basically goes around playing the whole Classic Lake, they have played Ep, tonka, wayzata and Edina. Buffalo has a harder schedule then Eagan if you ask me

Is Buffalo in the same conference as Edina? No. Then a game with Buffalo is a non-conference game, whether it's scheduled or a tournament game. But thanks for agreeing with me...Buffalo was not the team that replaced Eagan in Edina's mucho macho schedule this year. So which team was it?

And if my daughter's U12B team played Buffalo's schedule, would Edina want to schedule a game with them too?

[KrautBache]

http://www.minnhock.com/strength.htm

I'm guessing the difference on this link can be attributed to 5 games: the two games against MG and the three games against Tonka. Edina is 1-4 in those games. So I'll repeat, besides MG and Tonka, how is Edina's schedule "so much stronger" this year? I don't think this link answers that question, does it?

Answered that for you already, obviously you missed it or something
"they play Minnetonka 3 times EP 3 times Wayzata twice, Grand Rapids, Elk River Maple Grove twice, Burnsville and Lakeville South"

Green4, with all due respect, you seem to have misread my question. Twice. I said besides MG and Tonka how is Edina's schedule "much stronger" than Eagan's? You keep listing Tonka and MG as evidence of how its much stronger. Do you see the problem with that? I said, twice, besides MG and Tonka . . .

Why am I excluding MG and Tonka? Because my statements were specifically in response to DanfromWoodbury's statement that even if Edina was 0-3 against Tonka (as well as 0-2 against Maple Grove (i.e., MG), he would still rank them ahead of Eagan because Edina's schedule is SO MUCH STRONGER. So it makes sense to disregard Edina's 2 games against MG and 3 games against Tonka when responding to DanfromWoodbury, right? (Unless you want to make a case that Eagan would do worse than 0-5 if they played MG twice and Tonka 3 times. Which some of you probably do.)

So let's look at the others they've played (since who they will play doesn't enter into their current rank). And when we do, remember what the question is: whether Edina's schedule is "so much stronger" than Eagan's.

Edina: EP (#6) two times, Wayzata (#8) once, Lakeville South (#11) once, Burnsville (#12) once, Elk River (#13) once and Grand Rapids (#15) once, and then a bunch of unranked teams.

Eagan: EP (#6) once, Hill Murray (#9) once, Lakeville South (#11) twice, Burnsville (#12) once, and then a bunch of unranked teams.

My conclusion? The schedules are similar, Edina's is slightly stronger due to the one extra EP game, but I would not consider it it significantly stronger, and certainly not "so much stronger."

[KrautBache]

By the way, great job on the rankings as usual, Karl! Personally, I would probably put Eagan ahead of Edina, but reasonable minds can disagree.

[green4]

I'm guessing the difference on this link can be attributed to 5 games: the two games against MG and the three games against Tonka. Edina is 1-4 in those games. So I'll repeat, besides MG and Tonka, how is Edina's schedule "so much stronger" this year? I don't think this link answers that question, does it?

Answered that for you already, obviously you missed it or something
"they play Minnetonka 3 times EP 3 times Wayzata twice, Grand Rapids, Elk River Maple Grove twice, Burnsville and Lakeville South"

Green4, with all due respect, you seem to have misread my question. Twice. I said besides MG and Tonka how is Edina's schedule "much stronger" than Eagan's? You keep listing Tonka and MG as evidence of how its much stronger. Do you see the problem with that? I said, twice, besides MG and Tonka . . .

Why am I excluding MG and Tonka? Because my statements were specifically in response to DanfromWoodbury's statement that even if Edina was 0-3 against Tonka (as well as 0-2 against Maple Grove (i.e., MG), he would still rank them ahead of Eagan because Edina's schedule is SO MUCH STRONGER. So it makes sense to disregard Edina's 2 games against MG and 3 games against Tonka when responding to DanfromWoodbury, right? (Unless you want to make a case that Eagan would do worse than 0-5 if they played MG twice and Tonka 3 times. Which some of you probably do.)

So let's look at the others they've played (since who they will play doesn't enter into their current rank). And when we do, remember what the question is: whether Edina's schedule is "so much stronger" than Eagan's.

Edina: EP (#6) two times, Wayzata (#8) once, Lakeville South (#11) once, Burnsville (#12) once, Elk River (#13) once and Grand Rapids (#15) once, and then a bunch of unranked teams.

Eagan: EP (#6) once, Hill Murray (#9) once, Lakeville South (#11) twice, Burnsville (#12) once, and then a bunch of unranked teams.

My conclusion? The schedules are similar, Edina's is slightly stronger due to the one extra EP game, but I would not consider it it significantly stronger, and certainly not "so much stronger."

well im sorry for misreading your question but you seem to have misread my answer its not EP twice but actually 3 times (edina tourney plus 2 classic lake games) and not Wayzata only once but actually Twice (two classic lake games) and i don't complete understand how you can say the schedules are similar in difficulty when you insist on taking out the 5 hardest games on the there schedule... Edina's schedule as you said is "slightly stronger" but thats with you taking out Minnetonka, Maple grove and 1 game from EP and Wayzata

[karl(east)]

By the way, great job on the rankings as usual, Karl! Personally, I would probably put Eagan ahead of Edina, but reasonable minds can disagree.

Thanks. I'm enjoying letting other people do the arguing this week.

And though these arguments do turn into "did not, did too" from time to time, there's usually something of value somewhere in there. These rankings may not have the presence of LPH, but they do invite comments and fresh ways of looking at teams, and I think there's a certain value there that we don't get anywhere else.

So, keep on arguing.

[tonkafan77]

I can't believe I'm saying this but....Edina is the better team. They have grown immensely over the season. Tonka has played them 3 times and has also played Eagan once. All of them (besides the Schwan Cup vs Edina) were very close games but if I could make any observation, it'd be that Edina stays strong throughout the whole game while Eagan fell flat in the third period and let Minnetonka win.

I really wish these two teams would play so we could settle this argument but we'll just have to wait until the state tourney!

[HappyHockeyFan]

I can't believe I'm saying this but....Edina is the better team. They have grown immensely over the season. Tonka has played them 3 times and has also played Eagan once. All of them (besides the Schwan Cup vs Edina) were very close games but if I could make any observation, it'd be that Edina stays strong throughout the whole game while Eagan fell flat in the third period and let Minnetonka win.

I really wish these two teams would play so we could settle this argument but we'll just have to wait until the state tourney!e

Are you kidding me? Fell flat in the third?? Eagan had one bad penalty kill giving up 2 goals and that was the difference in the game, one 2 minutes stretch was the difference not a whole third period. Nobody has beat Eagan this year, nobody but themselves in both EP and Tonka games and even the tie against Jefferson the Eagan defense had more to do with the tie than Jeffersons play, Jefferson just took advantage of the parade of Eagan defensemen going to the penalty box.

[keepyourheadup]

Eagan has two losses because they got beat twice, end of story. Remember a year ago how you crowed about your wildcats beating EP? Never heard you say that EP beat themselves in that one.

[KrautBache]

Answered that for you already, obviously you missed it or something
"they play Minnetonka 3 times EP 3 times Wayzata twice, Grand Rapids, Elk River Maple Grove twice, Burnsville and Lakeville South"

Green4, with all due respect, you seem to have misread my question. Twice. I said besides MG and Tonka how is Edina's schedule "much stronger" than Eagan's? You keep listing Tonka and MG as evidence of how its much stronger. Do you see the problem with that? I said, twice, besides MG and Tonka . . .

Why am I excluding MG and Tonka? Because my statements were specifically in response to DanfromWoodbury's statement that even if Edina was 0-3 against Tonka (as well as 0-2 against Maple Grove (i.e., MG), he would still rank them ahead of Eagan because Edina's schedule is SO MUCH STRONGER. So it makes sense to disregard Edina's 2 games against MG and 3 games against Tonka when responding to DanfromWoodbury, right? (Unless you want to make a case that Eagan would do worse than 0-5 if they played MG twice and Tonka 3 times. Which some of you probably do.)

So let's look at the others they've played (since who they will play doesn't enter into their current rank). And when we do, remember what the question is: whether Edina's schedule is "so much stronger" than Eagan's.

Edina: EP (#6) two times, Wayzata (#8) once, Lakeville South (#11) once, Burnsville (#12) once, Elk River (#13) once and Grand Rapids (#15) once, and then a bunch of unranked teams.

Eagan: EP (#6) once, Hill Murray (#9) once, Lakeville South (#11) twice, Burnsville (#12) once, and then a bunch of unranked teams.

My conclusion? The schedules are similar, Edina's is slightly stronger due to the one extra EP game, but I would not consider it it significantly stronger, and certainly not "so much stronger."

well im sorry for misreading your question but you seem to have misread my answer its not EP twice but actually 3 times (edina tourney plus 2 classic lake games) and not Wayzata only once but actually Twice (two classic lake games) and i don't complete understand how you can say the schedules are similar in difficulty when you insist on taking out the 5 hardest games on the there schedule... Edina's schedule as you said is "slightly stronger" but thats with you taking out Minnetonka, Maple grove and 1 game from EP and Wayzata

Um, you're kidding, right? Please re-read the two paragraphs in my post that that are right before my list of Edina's games. I explain why the ranked games that have not been played yet are excluded (1 Wayzata game and 1 EP game for Edina, 1 Burnsville game for Eagan), and why Minnetonka and Maple Grove are excluded.

[HShockeywatcher]

Why am I excluding MG and Tonka? Because my statements were specifically in response to DanfromWoodbury's statement that even if Edina was 0-3 against Tonka (as well as 0-2 against Maple Grove (i.e., MG), he would still rank them ahead of Eagan because Edina's schedule is SO MUCH STRONGER. So it makes sense to disregard Edina's 2 games against MG and 3 games against Tonka when responding to DanfromWoodbury, right? (Unless you want to make a case that Eagan would do worse than 0-5 if they played MG twice and Tonka 3 times. Which some of you probably do.)

If you take the funny parts out of a comedy, is it still a comedy?

What you are ignoring is that in addition to the 1-2 record against Tonka, Edina is also 2-0 (including a shut out) against the other team Eagan lost to.

No one is speculating who would win what hypothetical games, they are judging the teams based on the schedules that have been played and the results of those games. If it wasn't for EP getting shut out by Wayzata and losing to the Spuds, Eagan would probably be one spot lower.

They are a great team with great players, but what they have done on the ice doesn't reflect putting them higher. Were they undefeated, they'd be #1. Easily.

[almostashappy]

Why am I excluding MG and Tonka? Because my statements were specifically in response to DanfromWoodbury's statement that even if Edina was 0-3 against Tonka (as well as 0-2 against Maple Grove (i.e., MG), he would still rank them ahead of Eagan because Edina's schedule is SO MUCH STRONGER. So it makes sense to disregard Edina's 2 games against MG and 3 games against Tonka when responding to DanfromWoodbury, right? (Unless you want to make a case that Eagan would do worse than 0-5 if they played MG twice and Tonka 3 times. Which some of you probably do.)

If you take the funny parts out of a comedy, is it still a comedy?

What you are ignoring is that in addition to the 1-2 record against Tonka, Edina is also 2-0 (including a shut out) against the other team Eagan lost to.

No one is speculating who would win what hypothetical games, they are judging the teams based on the schedules that have been played and the results of those games. If it wasn't for EP getting shut out by Wayzata and losing to the Spuds, Eagan would probably be one spot lower.

They are a great team with great players, but what they have done on the ice doesn't reflect putting them higher. Were they undefeated, they'd be #1. Easily.

Oh look, here comes the cavalry, riding to green4's rescue! How about those #9 ranked Pioneers, HSHW?

Too bad the broken record is playing so loudly that you couldn't concentrate on the point of the argument that you've joined (hint...it has nothing to do with whether EP should be ranked higher or lower than Eagan, and nothing to do with hypothetical games).

Here's the question...if Edina had not played MG or Tonka this year, and had chosen not to replace them with other opponents, would the strength of that reduced-game schedule still be "so much stronger" than Eagan's schedule? DanfromWoodbury says yes, KM says no, and Green4 hasn't given a straight answer.

[PuckU126]

http://www.minnhock.com/strength.htm

^^ Edina has a stronger schedule according to Pagestat. The numbers are there.

In addition, LPH, PageStat and the Hub have Eagan ranked higher than Edina; HOWEVER, this week, Karl ranks Edina above Eagan and people scream bloody murder...

Not all rankings are going to be the same every time (thankfully). It's based on research, analysis and opinions. Period.

How about you fancy this. I bet if someone did an average of the current rankings of Class AA (which HSHW has done before for Class A), Eagan would be ahead of Edina. Are you "almost as happy" now?

Hopefully that will periodically appease those certain fans that hunger validation and respect for their team from everyone.

Now carry on. I'm enjoying reading this discussion, and I have more popcorn to make.

[HShockeywatcher]

Too bad the broken record is playing so loudly that you couldn't concentrate on the point of the argument that you've joined (hint...it has nothing to do with whether EP should be ranked higher or lower than Eagan, and nothing to do with hypothetical games).

Here's the question...if Edina had not played MG or Tonka this year, and had chosen not to replace them with other opponents, would the strength of that reduced-game schedule still be "so much stronger" than Eagan's schedule? DanfromWoodbury says yes, KM says no, and Green4 hasn't given a straight answer.

No one's "riding to anyone's resue." Numerous people are saying the same common sense things (which btw is the opposite logic used by most in class A) and a couple people keep repeating themselves over and over.

Thypothetical world where we remove games from schedules and don't replace them is not based in reality.

When I have more time (unless someone beats me to it) I'll crunch the numbers. Remember, SOS isn't determined from one game. Edina's schedule is all around better; I suspect it would still be higher, although I doubt it would be 2.

How bout this? You want to take out the teams Edina's lost to? Let's take out the 4 opponents Edina's lost to and the 2 Eagan's lost to and see who has a better schedule of wins. That's fair, right?

How about you fancy this. I bet if someone did an average of the current rankings of Class AA (which HSHW has done before for Class A), Eagan would be ahead of Edina. Are you "almost as happy" now?

Everytime I've done them I've done them for both classes. Biggest reason I do them is because of the discrepancy in AA rankings. AA gets overshadowed with people posting about my supposed alterior motives for taking my time to do the rankings for BOTH classes.

And yes, Eagan was ranked higher in both human and computer polls.

[KrautBache]

Why am I excluding MG and Tonka? Because my statements were specifically in response to DanfromWoodbury's statement that even if Edina was 0-3 against Tonka (as well as 0-2 against Maple Grove (i.e., MG), he would still rank them ahead of Eagan because Edina's schedule is SO MUCH STRONGER. So it makes sense to disregard Edina's 2 games against MG and 3 games against Tonka when responding to DanfromWoodbury, right? (Unless you want to make a case that Eagan would do worse than 0-5 if they played MG twice and Tonka 3 times. Which some of you probably do.)

If you take the funny parts out of a comedy, is it still a comedy?

What you are ignoring is that in addition to the 1-2 record against Tonka, Edina is also 2-0 (including a shut out) against the other team Eagan lost to.

No one is speculating who would win what hypothetical games, they are judging the teams based on the schedules that have been played and the results of those games. If it wasn't for EP getting shut out by Wayzata and losing to the Spuds, Eagan would probably be one spot lower.

They are a great team with great players, but what they have done on the ice doesn't reflect putting them higher. Were they undefeated, they'd be #1. Easily.

HSHW, you keep changing the question after I've answered it. For the LAST time, I was responding specifically to DanFromWoodbury's hypothetical when I was talking about SOS without MG and Tonka. He is the one who said that even if Edina was 0-5 in its games against MG and Tonka, their schedule is still so much stronger so they should be ranked higher. I disagreed, and then I provided data that reasonably supports my conclusion. Don't accuse me of picking and choosing -- I was merely responding to someone else's hypothetical. And I am now sooooo done with this topic!

[gopherpuck516]

What's the point in arguing who's better between two teams that possibly will never play each other this season? I'd love to see an Edina vs Eagan game this year and the only place it can happen is at the State Tourney. And who cares what seed you get at the State Tourney, if your team is fortunate enough make it. In order to win, any team is going to have to go through three other tough teams to do it, period. I would love to see a State Tournament with each of the consensus top 5 teams there, and add Moorhead, Lakeville South, and probably HM. In a one-game matchup any of those teams is capable of beating any other, of course some have more of a likelihood of winning, and hopefully all arguments will be settled on the ice in March.

[observer]

OK, I'll settle it.

Eagan is better than Edina.

[northwoods oldtimer]

OK, I'll settle it.

Eagan is better than Edina.

It's like two 5 year old's arguing over a piece of candy.

[HShockeywatcher]

You are definitely mis-quoting DanfromWoodbury. He didn't mention MG at all, nor did he say to take them out of their schedule, just that Edina's SOS is that much better.

But, let's live in the world of misquoting so it makes your point work. Number looking up time:

So, before I even crunch the numbers, I know Edina will still be higher. Of their 18 remaining games, 10 are against top 20 teams. Of Eagan's 23 games, 6 are against top 20 teams.

Edina's whole schedule 20.73, #2.
Minus MG/Tonka 19.90, which puts them at #12 in the state.

Eagan is at 19.26, #22 in state.
Minus EP/Tonka, 18.03; #43 in state.

So yes, Edina's schedule is still much more difficult than Eagan's. Glad I wasted my time to prove something easily seen by actually looking at the two schedules

[TheHockeyDJ]

If Eagan was in 7AA they'd get beat in the quarterfinals.

[hshockeyfan8]

If Eagan was in 7AA they'd get beat in the quarterfinals.

Actually laughed at this, if Eagan was in 7AA there would be a great championship game between them and East.