These results don't exactly support your claim that "Shattuck would win state 95-99% of the time." I'll give you 75%, but 95% is 19 out of every 20 years. Plain and simple, upsets happen more often than that.
And this year, if it came down to Edina and SSM, I don't think Edina winning would be considered an upset. Unlike the Elite teams, they've been together all season under the tutelage of a very good coach, play four lines and actually have a system.
Then there is this question; if they had to play under MSHSL rules, how quickly would the talent pool at Shattuck dry up? They did essentially nothing when they were a MSHSL member before. So the idea they would dominate isn't exactly based on anything factual. Just theory. Or fantasy, if one prefers.
These results don't exactly support your claim that "Shattuck would win state 95-99% of the time." I'll give you 75%, but 95% is 19 out of every 20 years. Plain and simple, upsets happen more often than that.
And this year, if it came down to Edina and SSM, I don't think Edina winning would be considered an upset. Unlike the Elite teams, they've been together all season under the tutelage of a very good coach, play four lines and actually have a system.
Then there is this question; if they had to play under MSHSL rules, how quickly would the talent pool at Shattuck dry up? They did essentially nothing when they were a MSHSL member before. So the idea they would dominate isn't exactly based on anything factual. Just theory. Or fantasy, if one prefers.
Lee
It's not even a remotely interesting argument and out of shear boredom I've been following this thread. Of course SSM wouldn't be any good if they played by the same rules that dictate high schools. Of course they wouldn't attract the talent if they were forced to only play ~25 games. Of course they should be phenomenal if they're attracting players from all over North America under the current system. What makes SMM what they are is that they don't abide by the same regulations. It's a massive credit to MN high school hockey and the communities that support them that teams even hang with them.
If anything this should be justification for how strong MN HS hockey is.
The City of Hill Murray is beautiful this time of year
The51 wrote:Since 2006 Shattuck has had 32 players drafted in the NHL according to their website. Edina has 7 in that same time period and thats the school with the most I can think of off the top of my head, and no other schools that have more than 3.
Each season they choose players from around the world to come play for them. It is completely illogical to expect a city with a population of 50,000 to be able to compete with them it's as simple as the law of large numbers.
They consistently finish with around a .800 record in the Elite league, and you're gonna tell me if you split those kids up into their respective schools that that percentage is going to get worse?
I agree with the poster earlier who said it's comparing apples and oranges because Shattuck doesn't have to play by the same rules as the schools do, but come on use your head.
This list rivals the MSHSL as a whole let alone the league split up into 75 different teams. (Assuming about half of the schools are irrelevant to this discussion like the sleepy eyes and luverne's of the world)
Shattuck would win state 95-99% of the time.
No response to the top 2 scorers being on the ice in the 2nd and 3rd periods of the 2012 Benilde game? Must have been given the wrong info.
Apparently I was, all I was doing was relaying info that was given to me. Whether or not they were on the ice doesn't change the fact that they beat the state champ 5-2 which is a pretty dominant win. Further more according to hockey hub the shots in that game were 38-17, that's pretty lopsided as well so its pretty clear to say they were a much better team than the state champion.
Interesting though that you chose to respond to a tiny detail of the discussion and not their record against elite league teams which in theory should be much better than any school's regular season team wouldn't you say?
I chose to respond to that one because you kept on saying how they don't try and sit their top two lines for the 2nd and 3rd periods.
Shattuck should be better since they can "recruit" from all over the country.
This shouldn't even be an argument
I'm no cakelover, but I'll maintain that this year's Edina team is better than this year's Shattuck prep team. No apologies or caveats. You've got (at least) seven Hornets that'll play D1 some day. They're coached well, play physically, and play as a team. Shattuck is all those things too, but they haven't been skating together since pee-wees.
I'm not saying that Shattuck couldn't beat them in a single elimination tournament format, but I'd take Edina in a series. Call me delusional, call me an idiot, I don't care. Just don't call me a cakelover. I was pulling for Lakeville North as much as anybody.
As for why Shattuck doesn't play in the MSHSL, that's been explained pretty clearly. They don't want to be limited to 25 regular season games, they don't want to adhere to the transfer rule, they DO want the ability to schedule AAA and prep opponents from across the continent. The MSHSL doesn't compliment their business model. Simple as that.
This conversation is all hypothetical at best.
BUT..the reality is that when matched up against the "best" Minnesota has to offer all collected onto teams (isn't that what the Elite League is?) SSM routinely spends every fall winning 9 out of every 10 games.
You guys make it like every single player at SSM is recruited..it's not the case. They only have X amount of financial aid and X amount of roster slots. The reality is that every single August kids are called asking them to come if they can afford it or with a small financial package..due to defections of kids going to juniors, NTDP, etc..There are also kids who have the parents with enough money to foot the bill who are also "good players" that go there and compete and develop.
"Shattuck is not hogwarts, you don't show up here and we wave a magic wand an you become a great hockey player just because you wear the jersey and go to the school. If you work hard enough and learn as much as you can while here, you will improve as a player and that's all we can promise"...
Tenoverpar wrote:BUT..the reality is that when matched up against the "best" Minnesota has to offer all collected onto teams (isn't that what the Elite League is?) SSM routinely spends every fall winning 9 out of every 10 games.
bauerman wrote:if you think the PREP TEAM not the midget team takes playing Benilde, STA, Breck lightly you're nuts. The midget team would get killed by any quality high school team. the prep team would be HIGHLY compettative against any quality high school team, to say they don't take those games seriously is just crazy maybe STA doesn't take beating their vauted Prep team all that seriously also
that's not my opinion thats a quote from one of their players when we played them, his exact words were "we don't really care about those games"
I don't buy that either. Once the puck drops every kid that age cares about every game. If he really said that, it was an excuse because you asked why they didn't win by more.
MNHockeyFan wrote:These results don't exactly support your claim that "Shattuck would win state 95-99% of the time." I'll give you 75%, but 95% is 19 out of every 20 years. Plain and simple, upsets happen more often than that.
And this year, if it came down to Edina and SSM, I don't think Edina winning would be considered an upset. Unlike the Elite teams, they've been together all season under the tutelage of a very good coach, play four lines and actually have a system.
There's a difference between winning a regular season game and doing well in the post season. Citing regular season results as an indication of post season success means little.
You're welcome to your opinion. Only point I care to make.
MNHockeyFan wrote:These results don't exactly support your claim that "Shattuck would win state 95-99% of the time." I'll give you 75%, but 95% is 19 out of every 20 years. Plain and simple, upsets happen more often than that.
And this year, if it came down to Edina and SSM, I don't think Edina winning would be considered an upset. Unlike the Elite teams, they've been together all season under the tutelage of a very good coach, play four lines and actually have a system.
There's a difference between winning a regular season game and doing well in the post season. Citing regular season results as an indication of post season success means little.
You're welcome to your opinion. Only point I care to make.
I agree that they're not the same - ALL teams (including NHL teams) give extra effort in the post season. In high school, you see teams give everything they have in sections and in the state tourney, so you could also say that they give a little less in the regular season, including "exhibition" games against SSM. Still, even those results are an indicator of the relative strength of the teams.
The51 wrote:It would be nice if the high school league would let them play in the tournament and then send the tournament winner to the USA hockey national championships for midget aaa but that might expose how overrated high school hockey is
Dead wrong: the top 5-10 teams here would do great in the AAA tourney. They have beaten Shattuck in years when they have won the national title.
first off I think you missed the part about Shattuck not taking those games seriously.
Second I played in both leagues, MN high school and Midget AAA, there was no comparison at all Midget aaa was head and shoulders above
If you knew ANYTHING about Shattuck you would know that they take every game seriously and have been successful and have built a great reputation over the years by doing so. Furthermore, after Shattuck lost to BSM and St Thomas, Tom Ward was quoted in the paper and he said nothing about sitting guys, or not taking it seriously. What he did say is that they play 70 games per year and sometimes you get beat by teams that you are expected to beat. He also said something about putting these two schools on his schedule because they are worthy opponents.
Would Shattuck have great success at the State Tourney--sure--would they win every year...no way--not a chance--and I can tell you with confidence that the guys at Shattuck would agree with me.
51--unless you played AA hockey in MN against the top tier teams, you have no idea what you are talking about. I dont know if you watched a great Lakeville North team play Edina in the state championship?-----2014 Edina vs Shattuck Prep...my money is on Edina...no question.
RonBurgandy wrote:2014 Edina vs Shattuck Prep...my money is on Edina...no question.
You, I like. Somebody finally backs me up!
DISCLAIMER: I don't eat cake.
Disagree. Shattuck beats Edina 8 out of 10 times. Edina was the best team in MN, but their dominance was a product of upsets of the other top teams. To get to Lakeville North, they basically took out the middle of the pack of the South Suburban Conference.
BYE
Prior Lake (10-14-1. 5th SSC)
Jefferson (13-10-2. 6th SSC)
Stillwater (13-10-2. 4th SEC. #3 seed in 4AA)
Eagan (15-9-1. 4th SSC. #4 seed in 3AA)
Top HS teams can play with them, but would always be the underdog. Shattuck usually has about the same top end talent as the top MN HS teams, they just have much more depth than anyone, including Edina.
RonBurgandy wrote:2014 Edina vs Shattuck Prep...my money is on Edina...no question.
You, I like. Somebody finally backs me up!
DISCLAIMER: I don't eat cake.
Disagree. Shattuck beats Edina 8 out of 10 times. Edina was the best team in MN, but their dominance was a product of upsets of the other top teams. To get to Lakeville North, they basically took out the middle of the pack of the South Suburban Conference.
BYE
Prior Lake (10-14-1. 5th SSC)
Jefferson (13-10-2. 6th SSC)
Stillwater (13-10-2. 4th SEC. #3 seed in 4AA)
Eagan (15-9-1. 4th SSC. #4 seed in 3AA)
Top HS teams can play with them, but would always be the underdog. Shattuck usually has about the same top end talent as the top MN HS teams, they just have much more depth than anyone, including Edina.
With this Edina team, I give Shattuck 6 out of 10. Include all the early departures Edina has had and I flip that number to Edinas favor.
The City of Hill Murray is beautiful this time of year
RonBurgandy wrote:2014 Edina vs Shattuck Prep...my money is on Edina...no question.
You, I like. Somebody finally backs me up!
DISCLAIMER: I don't eat cake.
Disagree. Shattuck beats Edina 8 out of 10 times. Edina was the best team in MN, but their dominance was a product of upsets of the other top teams. To get to Lakeville North, they basically took out the middle of the pack of the South Suburban Conference.
BYE
Prior Lake (10-14-1. 5th SSC)
Jefferson (13-10-2. 6th SSC)
Stillwater (13-10-2. 4th SEC. #3 seed in 4AA)
Eagan (15-9-1. 4th SSC. #4 seed in 3AA)
Top HS teams can play with them, but would always be the underdog. Shattuck usually has about the same top end talent as the top MN HS teams, they just have much more depth than anyone, including Edina.
Dub--You clearly have your Rose colored Shattuck glasses on...There is no denying SSM is the premier program in the US when it comes to AAA Midget Hockey...I'm not arguing that...but you must concede they are up and down year to year...and this year based on what I have seen, they lose to Edina more than they win.
Wow, I agree with some of these later posts. If you really follow the top HS teams in MN and pay attention to SSM, you have to see that they, like other top programs of any type have up and down seasons. SSM would no way win the state tournament 'easily' every year, come on. They would be a top seed contender Im sure. Any why not? They can do many things with players not eligible in MNHSL rules. I agree, great testimonial to how good MN HS hockey programs are, using who they have for the most part. (yeah yeah save it). To say MN HS hockey is irrelevant and over rated is ridiculous. Maybe you should have been filling out an NCAA bracket.... by mascot.... might be more accurate.
eh1 wrote:Obviously two great programs- anyone know the number of D1 players produced by each program this year?
Don't forget too that SSM only has one underclassman (sophomore) on its roster vs. at least five (and up to seven) for Edina (their roster on the Hub does not show class year for two players).
How would of Edina fared in the Elite league had they played as a team, Shattuck was what 12 and 3, would have easily won it if they had played the whole schedule. Shattuck only played Benilde this year and beat them 8-1, I see Edina beating Benilde by only a couple of goals, Shattucks constant forecheck would really expose Edina,s weak defence and goaltending. Shattuck would have beaten Edina by 4 or 5 goals. But I'll guess we'll never know, because Edina is to chicken to play Shattuck. And you mentioned Edina losing several players that would have made them even better, well Shattuck lost 3 players, 1 to the USHL, 1 to the OHL and 1 to I think the BCHL. Please do yourself a favor by not comparing them.
Cow Bell & Exiled One- gotta like your passion on both sides of the fence but do either of you have any stats on D1 commits from this years teams? I have a little buckaroo in Dub country that I'm trying to figure out what to do with next year.
eh1 wrote:Cow Bell & Exiled One- gotta like your passion on both sides of the fence but do either of you have any stats on D1 commits from this years teams? I have a little buckaroo in Dub country that I'm trying to figure out what to do with next year.
eh1 wrote:Cow Bell & Exiled One- gotta like your passion on both sides of the fence but do either of you have any stats on D1 commits from this years teams? I have a little buckaroo in Dub country that I'm trying to figure out what to do with next year.
I can't deny that Shattuck has more commitments right now. Here are Edina's two...
Tyler Nanne - Ohio State
Dylan Malmquist - Notre Dame
There will be more, of course. Fidler, Munson, Bellows, and Wait will all be D1, they just haven't committed yet. Zuhlsdorf and Dornbach are good candidates to go D1 as well. I'm guessing there'll be at least nine D1 players from this team after it's all said and done.
