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Discussion of Minnesota Girls High School Hockey

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ghshockeyfan
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

xk1 wrote:GHS,

The boys have such a league and it has had no impact on OE/Private transfers, it's purpose is to keelp them in HS rather than Juniors and from what I have read has not succeeded in doing that either.
We don't know that it doesn't have an impact... We only know what has happened with it... Without it??? Unknown, maybe more OE's/privates???

That aside, I think that OE/Private/TB/SSM for girls = Juniors for boys, so, if we create something to take the place of those concerns then we will be far better off G Hockey wise.

I'm not a parent, but as a coach I can say that if I have a kid and I'm considering private/OE for athletic concerns I have a far easier time justifying my kid staying put and leading the weak HS team if I know that there is a non-political and (relative) affordable HS Elite League that will give my kid something before (& after) the HS season to improve.
hockeya1a
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Post by hockeya1a »

ghshockeyfan wrote:
xk1 wrote:GHS,

I'm not a parent, but as a coach I can say that if I have a kid and I'm considering private/OE for athletic concerns I have a far easier time justifying my kid staying put and leading the weak HS team if I know that there is a non-political and (relative) affordable HS Elite League that will give my kid something before (& after) the HS season to improve.
Hey maybe this is your next calling! :-)
It would be great if there were a place for the girls that wasn't all about the money or lack there of.
keepitreal
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Post by keepitreal »

hockeyrube wrote:The "parent problem" seems to be a theme of late on this board - parents living vicariously thru their kids - it's kind of disgusting when you think about it. What is our hope for these young ladies - they go D1, and then what ??? There is no WNHL, and even if there were, they wouldn't be paid much. What's wrong with a kid playing HS sports for the experience and life lessons, playing some D3 or club hockey in college, while they are gaining an education that will provide them a means to make a living the rest of their lives ???

The other contributing factor to the O/E mania is AAA hockey. The high level players get to know each other thru AAA - the breeding ground for O/E. I have heard the conversations in the locker rooms at AAA events. I hope most these kids can enjoy the AAA experience, and still appreciate their hometown buddies on their HS team, even though they probably are not as skilled as the AAA teammates.
It may be worse in girls hockey than anything. Let's face it, the bar for girls hockey players is much lower than boys hockey and many other sports. Even a mere decent player's parents can entertain dreams of NDP while those in other sports and certainly in boys hockey probably cannot. Is that why many invest so heavily (emotionally and financially)? Ego? Sure. We all want success for our children. Hopefully, that's the true motivation.

Ironic isn't it, the fact we spend time on a girls HS hockey forum shows we are all guilty of being a little too obsessed doesn't it? :twisted: Also ironic that starting with AAA teams, now at U10 or younger(!), instruction/training and hi-tech equipment, one will likely spend enough on hockey to fully fund the college scholarship that is the brass ring of many.

BUT, my less cynical side knows that success in hockey, even if sometimes guided, prodded or cajoled by parents, is more often a good thing than bad for all the reasons we've come to expect. As much as we'd like to believe that all kids and locker rooms are positive, growing experiences, that is not always the case. As one can expect, unsuccessful teams might not have all players sharing the same level of effort or committment. Understand I'm not talking about unsuccessful in terms of winning/losing. My highest admiration is for coaches and players (and parents) of teams with losing records who create and maintain a positive environment.

It's understandably easier to find unity and friends in the locker room of successful teams and probably on most hand-picked AAA teams. This unity helps kids grow with positive attitudes and leadership characteristics and the higher expectations encourages them to raise their abilities further. Maybe AAA kids can bring this back to the HS locker room and use to influence others, hopefully helping their team become more successful. I have seen elite-level young players on unsucessful teams become discouraged and level off because they share little in common with many of their teammates or are not encouraged to lead; just as I've seen lessser players emerge and infuse their success to those around them. It's whatever you make of it and parents and coaches have a responsibility to channel things in the right direction. Handling it is a delicate balance. It's essential to be realistic and keep things in perspective as hockeyrube notes.

As in anything, winning makes everything easier but losing is often what teaches. Those who are given an understanding of how to help turn it around will also be in high demand later in life.
Last edited by keepitreal on Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ghshockeyfan
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

hockeya1a wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:
xk1 wrote:GHS,

I'm not a parent, but as a coach I can say that if I have a kid and I'm considering private/OE for athletic concerns I have a far easier time justifying my kid staying put and leading the weak HS team if I know that there is a non-political and (relative) affordable HS Elite League that will give my kid something before (& after) the HS season to improve.
Hey maybe this is your next calling! :-)
It would be great if there were a place for the girls that wasn't all about the money or lack there of.
I've done a lot of talking on this, and I do hope that it will eventually work out for all the kids that often find themselves on the outside looking in due to economics or political issues.

I would base such a league on NDP tryouts, and that too may not be ideal for some - but the truth is that the NDP is probably the least biased and most impartial identification process of the top talent in the state.

It wouldn't be too hard to base a true elite league in the Fall/early Spring off the prior years NDP late Spring tryouts...

The reason that most attempts don't work elite league wise is scheduling as you need to find ways to work around multi-sport athletes scheudles as well as accomodate for the ever important homecoming events, etc., etc.
MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan »

ghshockeyfan wrote:A couple other thoughts...

1) If we had an established true non-profit based HS Elite League like the boys I think we'd see less movement rather than more. While I agree that AAA hockey may create issues OE/Private wise it also may prevent kids from leaving in that it offers something to those that stay in their home areas as far as high level hockey outside the regular season.

2) I think that AAA hockey should be regulated - and somehow worked to support a HS Elite League.
I'm curious as to why you think AAA hockey needs to be regulated, and regulated by whom for that matter. One of the things that's attractive about it is the variety it offers - some teams offer a structured league format, some independents will practice more and choose to play in less tournaments, while others are pretty much tournament only teams, and others will favor scrimmages instead of more tournaments, etc. - a good variety depending on what you're looking for. Parents and players usually have input into the decision making process, such as which tournaments the team should enter.

In my opinion it's the LACK of regulation which results in these kinds of unique experiences and choices that help make it attractive the way it is.
ghshockeyfan
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

keepitreal wrote:
hockeyrube wrote:keepitreal,

Very well said. The "parent problem" seems to be a theme of late on this board - parents living vicariously thru their kids - it's kind of disgusting when you think about it. What is our hope for these young ladies - they go D1, and then what ??? There is no WNHL, and even if there were, they wouldn't be paid much. What's wrong with a kid playing HS sports for the experience and life lessons, playing some D3 or club hockey in college, while they are gaining an education that will provide them a means to make a living the rest of their lives ???

The other contributing factor to the O/E mania is AAA hockey. The high level players get to know each other thru AAA - the breeding ground for O/E. I have heard the conversations in the locker rooms at AAA events. I hope most these kids can enjoy the AAA experience, and still appreciate their hometown buddies on their HS team, even though they probably are not as skilled as the AAA teammates.
It may be worse in girls hockey than anything. Let's face it, the bar for girls hockey players is much lower than boys hockey and many other sports. Even a mere decent player's parents can entertain dreams of NDP while those in other sports and certainly in boys hockey probably cannot. Is that why many invest so heavily (emotionally and financially)? Ego? Sure. We all want success for our children. Hopefully, that's the true motivation.

Ironic isn't it, the fact we spend time on a girls HS hockey forum shows we are all guilty of being a little too obsessed doesn't it? :twisted: Also ironic that starting with AAA teams, now at U10 or younger(!), instruction/training and hi-tech equipment, one will likely spend enough on hockey to fully fund the college scholarship that is the brass ring of many.

BUT, my less cynical side knows that success in hockey, even if sometimes guided, prodded or cajoled by parents, is more often a good thing than bad for all the reasons we've come to expect. As much as we'd like to believe that all kids and locker rooms are positive, growing experiences, that is not always the case. As one can expect, unsuccessful teams might not have all players sharing the same level of effort or committment. Understand I'm not talking about unsuccessful in terms of winning/losing. My highest admiration is for coaches and players (and parents) of teams with losing records who create and maintain a positive environment.

It's understandably easier to find unity and friends in the locker room of successful teams and probably on most hand-picked AAA teams. This unity helps kids grow with positive attitudes and leadership characteristics and the higher expectations encourages them to raise their abilities further. Maybe AAA kids can bring this back to the HS locker room and use to influence others, hopefully helping their team become more successful. I have seen elite-level young players on unsucessful teams become discouraged and level off because they share little in common with many of their teammates or are not encouraged to lead; just as I've seen lessser players emerge and infuse their success to those around them. It's whatever you make of it and parents and coaches have a responsibility to channel things in the right direction. Handling it is a delicate balance. It's essential to be realistic and keep things in perspective as hockeyrube notes.

As in anything, winning makes everything easier but losing is often what teaches. Those who are given an understanding of how to help turn it around will also be in high demand later in life.
Well said and amen!
ghshockeyfan
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

MNHockeyFan wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:A couple other thoughts...

1) If we had an established true non-profit based HS Elite League like the boys I think we'd see less movement rather than more. While I agree that AAA hockey may create issues OE/Private wise it also may prevent kids from leaving in that it offers something to those that stay in their home areas as far as high level hockey outside the regular season.

2) I think that AAA hockey should be regulated - and somehow worked to support a HS Elite League.
I'm curious as to why you think AAA hockey needs to be regulated, and regulated by whom for that matter. One of the things that's attractive about it is the variety it offers - some teams offer a structured league format, some independents will practice more and choose to play in less tournaments, while others are pretty much tournament only teams, and others will favor scrimmages instead of more tournaments, etc. - a good variety depending on what you're looking for. Parents and players usually have input into the decision making process, such as which tournaments the team should enter.

In my opinion it's the LACK of regulation which results in these kinds of unique experiences and choices that help make it attractive the way it is.
I'm sick of how kids are treated by the typical organizers.
keepitreal
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Post by keepitreal »

ghshockeyfan wrote:
MNHockeyFan wrote: I'm curious as to why you think AAA hockey needs to be regulated, and regulated by whom for that matter. One of the things that's attractive about it is the variety it offers - some teams offer a structured league format, some independents will practice more and choose to play in less tournaments, while others are pretty much tournament only teams, and others will favor scrimmages instead of more tournaments, etc. - a good variety depending on what you're looking for. Parents and players usually have input into the decision making process, such as which tournaments the team should enter.

In my opinion it's the LACK of regulation which results in these kinds of unique experiences and choices that help make it attractive the way it is.
I'm sick of how kids are treated by the typical organizers.
If this is the case, wouldn't free enterprise tend to make things better? More opportunities for more players, and all that?

I'm not against the MSHSL Elite League concept, but unfortunately I have heard enough complaints about the political nature of everything from NDP on down to trust the integrity of any program 100%. What it does do, is takes the parental element out of the picture as most AAA teams curiously seem to have a parent or two in charge who depart when their kids do.
hockeya1a
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Post by hockeya1a »

I'm sick of how kids are treated by the typical organizers.[/quote]

I agree My kid was aproached to play AAA selects and I had to decline because I could not afford it.
And ever since I think they think we are MUSH.
But I know better :-)
MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan »

ghshockeyfan wrote:I'm sick of how kids are treated by the typical organizers.
I'm not sure what you mean by "typical organizers". Certainly if those running or organizing an independent AAA team treat girls very poorly they won't be successful for very long because no one will want to play for them. Who needs the grief especially when it costs money? I can only speak from our experience which has generally been very positive. I do agree that sometimes the experience can be tarnished by an overzealous parent who ends up favoring his own kid, especially if it's at the expense of another player or players on the team.

If it's an issue of cost like it was for hockeya1a, well ice time costs money and you just have to look for opportunities that are more reasonably priced on a cost-per-hour basis. All of these camps and AAA teams compete with one another, if only on an indirect basis, for the players' time and the parents' money.
ghshockeyfan
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

The cost of the tournaments is absurd. The nature of team composition is too political that some don't ahve the connections to be invited, etc. That's all I'm saying. I think that an elite league based on NDP would be best.
MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan »

ghshockeyfan wrote:The cost of the tournaments is absurd. The nature of team composition is too political that some don't ahve the connections to be invited, etc. That's all I'm saying. I think that an elite league based on NDP would be best.
I can certainly see your point, but what you said earlier about scheduling conflicts with spring and fall sports is a real concern. It's probably not fair to make the multi-sport athlete choose between let's say school softball or soccer and spring/summer hockey, unless we want them to concentrate only on hockey. If they try to do it all there will be conflicts and little or no time left for doing homework. In the summer months there are fewer conflicts and no school work to worry about, so maybe an elite level league would work better then.
ghshockeyfan
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

A very good Summer Elite League was put together this past summer @ Wakota. I think the problem is that kids just have too much going on. I think AAA tourney teams are great, but not ideal in all respects. Supplementing their offerings with an Elite league that uses NDP to determine participation would be best.

Kids shouldn't have to choose between sports, but should have the option to participate schedule permitting and not at such costs. I know this is not realistic, but I think that somethings could be done at less expense, etc.
MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan »

ghshockeyfan wrote:A very good Summer Elite League was put together this past summer @ Wakota. I think the problem is that kids just have too much going on.
I agree the competition was great, but there were way too many no-shows for many of the games. It ended up being pond hockey at times, which I guess isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can lead to a lack of defensive effort and some bad habits because the players get so tired. One time our team even played without a goalie, and another time we had to borrow players from the other team just to have 5 skaters. This was not the fault of the league but more a combination of conflicts and the distance to Wakota/Inver Grove Heights - maybe a more central location would have helped.
ghshockeyfan wrote:I think AAA tourney teams are great, but not ideal in all respects. Supplementing their offerings with an Elite league that uses NDP to determine participation would be best.
Perhaps you are right, but as long as there are the tournaments there will probably be tournament teams formed to play in them. Kids like tournaments especially when other teams come in from other states and Canada. If they continue which is all but guaranteed, this in combination with an NDP-based elite league may be more than most girls want to devote to hockey in the summer.
ice29
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Post by ice29 »

ghshockeyfan wrote:
*The cost of the tournaments is absurd. The nature of team composition is too political that some don't ahve the connections to be invited, etc.

Hoooo...Raaa!!!!!! I Totally agree, It's all about the $$$$$$, and the politic's. Not about the Game at All!
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