Status of proposed transfer rules

hockeyrube7 · Post by **hockeyrube7** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:57 pm

MN, you got that right on the money! We are masking one hidden by trying to fight it with another. I guess in the long of it, some one is trying to stop some one else from winning everything, and to give their team a chance. Is that not what this is all about? And that goes for all sports, not just girls hockey.

hockeygod · Post by **hockeygod** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:02 am

I heard someone this weekend with a decent answer !!!! and I heard it from a wrestling coach of all people, we have to the limit the number of transfer students on each team and lengthen the games by 5 minutes per period, by doing this coaches with 2 big lines won't be able to to just play those two lines, the will need to play 3 or 4 lines (the area kids will get to play) and by limiting the number of OE players you won't be able to field an all star lineup,

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:10 am

Forgetting all the issues that would come up with trying to limit number of transfers, let's take last year EP team as an example. Limit them to 2 transfers and make periods 20 minutes. Let's also assume they are playing a team that, without transfers, is the equal of EP. The extra minutes would only mean that EP, which would be deeper because of the transfers, would be more likely to beat their oterwise equal opponent.

If the goal is to give teams without transfers a better chance of winning, you would need to shorten the game so lesser teams never needed to get to their "depth" line. (By the way, I am not suggestubg thet di this)
The kids that transfer all play summer hockey where the games are the same or longer, the number of players is less and the intensity is higher than HS hockey.

Maybe the first thing the MSHSL needs to do is come up with what they are trying to accomplish with their proposal. They need to identify exactly what they percieve as the problem and how thier proposal corrects that problem.

Slicker · Post by **Slicker** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:26 am

My point with the youth program, is every year many athletes that have come up from the youth programs get cut because some "blu-chipper" decides to transfer for a state tournament exposure. You can't sell me on the point that these kids are transferring for academic reasons. That's not happening!

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:45 am

Their is no requirement in the OE statute about transferring for academic or any other reason but I think it's fair to say that many kids transfer because they want to be in a better program than the one they are in. If they are "blue chippers" they don't need exposure at State, they got it at NDP in New York.

So your issue is simply that kids that would otherwise make the varsity team won't because someone better than them transferred in. I think that is a reasonable concern but let me ask this, why is it OK to displace that person if you change your address but bad if you don't? The reason for the change of address is the same, the outcome is the same and changing one's address makes you no more comitted to the community or the program. Secondly, why is it OK to displace that person by transferring in 9th grade but bad to transfer in 10th?

hockeygod · Post by **hockeygod** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:56 am

thats why transfers must be limited for people who live outside of the district, if someone wants to rent an apartment in the district so they can maintain an address, to me that person should seek psycological help, but for most transfers limiting them should keep us from turning into a basketball situation where the whole team is from somewhere else

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:04 am

OK, so let's say you limit transfers to 2 and 6 apply, how do you determine who gets to make the team? Second, how does that solve Slickers issue?

hockeya1a · Post by **hockeya1a** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:08 am

I agree that the whole reason that there needs to be a change in the transferring rule is to keep the Kids from transferring for the sole reason of Athletics.
I have seen many kids from the local communities transfer to another community just to play where they believe it suits them better, knowing full well the only reason for the transfer is the sport and not the academics.

No matter what decision is made not everyone will be happy.

I have seen where the top players from surrounding communities all transfer to the same school Private or public just because of a sport, and yes they have an immediate impact on that school. I have heard where players are asked to play and then given scholarships to play at particular schools.
I look at players like Jenna Kilpatrick from NP that has made a name for her self right where she was. Now if she would have abandoned that program it would have been devastating to them.

If you are truly good they will find you where you are.

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:16 am

reason that there needs to be a change in the transferring rule is to keep the Kids from transferring for the sole reason of Athletics.

OK, here is another debatable but reasonable purpose for a change. Assuming this is a valid purpose, the issue here is how do you determine who is "transferring for the sole reason of Athletics" from those that are actually transferring for academic reasons. It's not fair to punish them and the standard answer of "if they reall y are transferring for academics they shouldn't care" is just wrong.

The other problem is the MSHSL wants a rule that works for both private and public schools. How can you argue that transferring from public to private isn't for "academic" reasons?

hockeygod · Post by **hockeygod** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:16 am

who can blame a girl for wanting to transfer if she goes to an inner city school, they have a combined team and she knows no one on it, thats why you allow a couple transfers per team, but the people that transfer from one established program to a better program, that just displaces someone who grew up in the area, thats not fair. I don't feel bad about the school losing the girl who transfers because they don't own her. but i do feel for the girl that loses an opportunitty because someone transfered in in her place

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:34 am

Schools only have a certain number of classroom and teachers. When academically gifted students transfer to your school, some number of resident students will be deprived advanced classes. The legislature deemed this OK when they passed the law, why are sports more important?

hockeya1a · Post by **hockeya1a** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:39 am

I think that public schools really get a bad wrap here,
I am not quite sure why people think that private schools are always better.
They do look better on paper after all they get to choose what kind of students come in.

After all a heard of Buffalo are only as fast as the slowest buffalo.

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:50 am

I'm sure there are academic situations in some public schools that are better than academic situations in soem privates, the point is, it's not up to you, me or the MSHSL to make that call. If a parent thinks a private is a better deal the MSHSL has no right to dispute it. Many privastes are faith based, how would you argue that as not being a valid reason?

IMHO, it is impossible to come up with a set of transfer rules that work the same for public and private schools, especially the nonsense about having to be a resident of the ISD the private is in to be fro transfer purposes.

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:54 am

I believe this states the problem in the eyes of the MSHSL and others...

The transfer rules need to be modified in order to prevent teams from gaining an unfair advantage over other teams through the use of non-resident students.

hockeygod · Post by **hockeygod** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:59 am

it's imposable to stop the transfers, The parents and kids will always find loopholes, I guess I would rather see everything out on the table than see kids have to lie and cheat to get what they want.....maybe regional super teams is the answer, maybe if someone is unhappy with there program they can tryout for the superteam....but people would still be moving around to different schools even with super teams because they want to play with there friends, they like a schools orchastra program better or verious other reasons....it's just the nature of our socity now, we are very mobile and kids are too

hockeya1a · Post by **hockeya1a** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:16 am

Dont get me wrong, I know this is America and we do need to have choices.
No one will admit that there kid wants to go to another school for athletics and most of the time it is not the kid asking for the change, it is the parent.

IMO,
I think that if we make an OE student transfering from one public school to another public school sit out for half of the year per sport including practices is not unreasonable. then have a seperate section or league just for the private schools, where they will only play each other and have ther own tournament at the end of the year.

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:28 am

Excluding private from the State tournamnet or membership in conferences is certainly one solution. I would not prohibit play with publics however. If the MSHSL is adament about residency for privates they may not have to exclude them as they might leave on their own.

Do most consider ridding the MSHSL of privates the right solution?
Should MSHSL teams be limited to resident only players?

hockeygod · Post by **hockeygod** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:40 am

everyone wants to kick the privates out, remember when they went to a 2 class system, , suddenly the boys state tournament wasn't quite as exiting, should we rob the the state tournament of even more talent? what would happen if the privates were kicked out and there tournament turned out to be the tournament that everyone wanted to see, if that happened the public schools program would become little more than playground hockey because the great atheletes would be clamoring to get into the big show, ...you can't turn back the clock, the privates are here to stay, they belong in the state hogh school leauge as long as they adhere to the rules of the league

hockeya1a · Post by **hockeya1a** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:41 am

I would limit them to only scrimmaging the public schools, only if it is a mutual agreement by both schools.

it is possible that it would be difficult for a team that might have lost players through OE or private enrolment to compete against those kids that left.

dumpandchase · Post by **dumpandchase** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:43 am

I've always been told it is a priveledge to participate in Extra-Curricular Activities not a right. So with that being said I have a question. What is the MSHSL's place. What I mean is that are they a public institution that has to follow rules put in place by the legislature. Or are they a separate entity that applies there rules to the groups they manage. If it is the former then they should have to follow the rules in the law. If it is the latter shouldn't they make rules based on what there constituency which is the schools want. And if someone doesn't like it they can try to change it but if they can't change it don't you have to live with it. Or go play for Shattuck or the T-Breds.

I don't know if a word from above makes any sense at all but to me It's a priveledge to play high school hockey. The MSHSL administers rules to make play as fair as possible. Kids have the right to equal opportunities, which the MSHSL provides. But not the right to manipulate rules for there own personal gain.

hockeygod · Post by **hockeygod** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:01 am

I've had that same question about the minnesota state high school league for years now...just who are they, what is there mission, and to what rules are they suppose to adhere to?

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:01 am

About the Minnesota State High School League
The Minnesota State High School League is a voluntary, nonprofit association of public and private schools with a history of service to Minnesota's high school youth since 1916.

Today, nearly 500 schools are members of the League. Most - about 435 - are actual high schools. The remainder are either special schools or home schools. These member schools provide opportunities for athletics and fine arts competition for more than 200,000 high school students statewide each year.

Member schools annually choose to join the League. The League exists to provide competitive, equitable and uniform opportunities for high school students to learn valuable lessons through participation in athletics and fine arts. The League also provides support for member schools with programs that address sportsmanship, chemical health, scholarship recognition. The League also oversees more than 4,500 registered contest officials and judges. The League provides educational programs for coaches.

The Minnesota State High School League neither solicits nor receives any state funding. Most revenue comes from state tournament ticket sales, broadcast rights, and corporate partnerships, plus some from the sale of tournament merchandise. The League also annually returns hundreds of thousands of dollars to schools which had participants in state tournaments and contests to help offset the costs associated with "Going to State."

Mission Statement
The Minnesota State High School League provides educational opportunities for students through interscholastic athletics and fine arts programs, and provides leadership and support for member schools.

Beliefs We believe that…
Participation in school activity programs is a privilege and not a right.
Sportsmanship needs to have a constant presence in all school-based activity programs.
Students should have an equal opportunity to participate in all activities offered by their school.
Ethical behavior, dignity and respect are non-negotiable.
Student participants who choose to be chemically free must be supported.
Collaborative relationships with parents enhance a school's opportunity to positively impact student success.
Academic priorities must come before participation in athletic or fine arts activities.
Positive role models and an active involvement in a student's life by parents and others are critical to student success.
High school activity programs are designed for student participants, and adults must serve in a supportive role.
The success of the team is more important than individual honors.
Compliance with school, community and League rules is essential for all activity participants.
Participation in school-sponsored activities must be inclusive, not exclusive.
Ethical behavior, fairness, and embracing diversity best serve students and school communities.

<edit> I also found this...
The Founding Purposes of the Minnesota State High School League

The Minnesota State High School League is organized for the following educational purposes:
1. To provide promote, extend, manage and administer a program of activities for youth of the schools of the state on subsection, section and state levels in the fields of athletics, speech, music and dramatics on a competitive basis, as well as such other curricular and extracurricular activities as may from time to time be sponsored by the schools of Minnesota.

2. To establish uniform and equitable rules for youth in inter-school activities.

3. To elevate standards of sportsmanship and to encourage the growth of responsible citizenship among the students, member schools and their personnel.

4. To protect youth, member schools and their personnel from exploitation by special interest groups.

5. To provide mutual benefit and relief plans for the assistance of school students injured in athletic events or supervised school activities in meeting medical and hospital expenses incurred by reason of such injuries.

6. To serve the best interests of member schools and their students by providing a medium of cooperation and coordination in educational fields of endeavor and a series of related activities on a state-wide basis, which they individually could not achieve or accomplish for their students and which aid and assist the schools in maintaining a constantly improved program.

hockeya1a · Post by **hockeya1a** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:08 am

I agree,

Maybe the Private schools could be in the same leagues with SSM and TB?

hockeygod · Post by **hockeygod** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:17 am

just remember what happened to the st. paul city conference when they kicked the privates out, what are we going to do next give eden prairie the boot because the win to many football titles? How about edina's tennis, i think we should kick them out to.....the bottom line is if your going to do this thing you have to include everyone who choses to adhere to the rules that are set, if SSM or TB wants to go by the same rules as everyone else they should be welcome too.

hockeya1a · Post by **hockeya1a** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:24 am

No we don't kick them out.
But we don't alow the transfering in unless there is a penalty of sitting out half of the season. this would stop the players from transfering in just to play for those schools without a penalty.