Minn Hock Closes Boarders

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

[quote="ThePuckStopsHere"][quote="iwearmysunglassesatnight"]Rules for these type of things have ways to be worked around.
Just like those silly state roster requirements. It's all good. Let's play.[/quote]

Kind of like one of your so called Wisconsin players on the 99 Fire team is actually a Minnesota kid who's parents are renting an apartment in Somerset but still schools in Minnesota

Now thats an expensive work around [/quote]


No Comment

[InigoMontoya]

Reading through the MN Hockey handbook, I don't see anything that differentiates the tournament rule from the squirt game limit rule, or the A team scrimmaging a B team rule, or the certified and rostered coaches on the bench rule, etc. which all seem to be open to interpretation at the association or district level.

Perhaps they should implement a star system:
4 Stars - rules you really, really have to follow;
3 Stars - rules that can be vetoed by the DD;
2 Stars - rules that the association can disregard if it likes;
1 Star - really just filler so the handbook doesn't look so whimpy.

[glovesareoff]

Remeber is still not a tournament even thought the organizers are calling it a tournament... Check out the site

http://sites.google.com/site/superseriesorg/home

From the Dallas website
DSEHC 98's travel to Shattuck St. Mary's, Minnesota next on Thanksgiving Weekend


The DSEHC 98's are participating in the Super98 Tier 1 Tournament Series. The tournament will feature only the top Tier 1 teams across North America. Next stop for the series will be in Shattuck St. Mary's, Minnesota for Thanksgiving weekend hosted by the Wisconsin Fire.

With the Super98 Tournament series, each team will play a round robin of 5 games. After the five game preliminary round robin each team will play a final 6th game as follows: 1vs2, 3vs4, 5vs6. Each team will play two games on Friday, Saturday and Sunday for a total of 6 games.


Remember it's still not a tournament and its not hosted by the Fire...even though it says it is... Who know maybe Shattuck or Fairbault did in fact buy the ice and is sanctioning the event through MN Hockey????
I'm all for letting kids play hockey no matter where(Fire,Mn Hock, Rec league, MM), all I ask is for the adults(who act like kids) to play by the rules. What messeage are they sending to their kids, It's OK to break or bend the rules???? Whether we like them or not, USA Hockey/MN Hockey have rules for reasons, and must abide by them Let's face it the Fire's track record playing by the rules isn't the greatest... If I remember correctly, I believe a coach wasn't properly certified. Some may think that's minor, but It's a rule!!!!

If in fact this is a sanctioned event, we have nothing to complain about.

[nobama]

They see that some of the the district directors disregard the rules.

They see that USA Hockey doesn't even enforce the rules set forth in the annual guide.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander..

The Fire coach was certified by the way..

[elliott70]

You MN Hockey guys and your rules and regulations are something else. This coming weekend in Somerset some Minnesota teams are playing the Madison Caps and the Fire.

Saturday the Fire will play Wayzata and Madison. Edina will play Madison and Wayzata. On Sunday Madison will play Eden Prairie and Edina will play the Fire.

This does not sound like a tournament to me, just some teams getting together to play some games. What a crime.

Its against the USAH rules as well as MH rules.
Wayzata and Edina need to be careful.

Apparently the Fire and Madison do not care about USAH rules (assuming you speak for those organizations).

[elliott70]

Rules for these type of things have ways to be worked around.
Just like those silly state roster requirements. It's all good. Let's play.

You don't work around them, you find a way within the rule to make it work.

[InTheKnow]

Ellliott,

What exactly is against the rules?

[O-townClown]

Remeber is still not a tournament even thought the organizers are calling it a tournament... Check out the site

http://sites.google.com/site/superseriesorg/home

98s sure is a tournament. 97s is just four teams gettin' together. That's the one with Edina and Wayzata.

It is unfortunate that this gets considered a tournament by Minnesota Hockey. Remember, there are a lot of complaints that the mega associations (like Wayzata and Edina) don't field multiple A teams. They already play each other plenty. So rather than play Eden Prairie - again - these teams go out and schedule competitive games.

And the rule says what?

It is okay for you to play Alexandria, Albert Lea, and Austin. Not okay to play strong teams that came great distances to play an hour from your home.

Too bad.

Is there a provision for an appeal to get a waiver? Sure seems appropriate here. These teams aren't trophy hunting. They just want a test.

[elliott70]

Reading through the MN Hockey handbook, I don't see anything that differentiates the tournament rule from the squirt game limit rule, or the A team scrimmaging a B team rule, or the certified and rostered coaches on the bench rule, etc. which all seem to be open to interpretation at the association or district level.

Perhaps they should implement a star system:
4 Stars - rules you really, really have to follow;
3 Stars - rules that can be vetoed by the DD;
2 Stars - rules that the association can disregard if it likes;
1 Star - really just filler so the handbook doesn't look so whimpy.

Somethings come under control of the DD.
Somethings come under the control of a VP.

The basic reasoning is that there are differences bewtween a Hallock and a Winona and an Edina and Grand Rapids.
Some things need clarification and others are black and white.

Apparently you have never been involved with the Internal Revenue Code
or you would understand that.

And, 'no', I did not kill your father so quit sticking me with that little sword.

[greybeard58]

At the time the fire team had been removed from the Wisconsin State tournament the coach did not have certification and the assistant's had expired on Dec 31 and had not renewed. The following spring the one person that had allowed a lot to happen passed away.
WAHA through the central district was looking a not registering the fire, they then changed their minds and registered the teams as Tier I but would not allow them to participate in their state tournament because of the make up of the team did not have a majority of Wisconsin players. This year the classification was changed from Tier I to Unclassified. Whether you like it or not,this organization has a proven track record of playing loose or not following the rules and yes they had help from a few who probably were interested in other areas beside hockey.
I hope the Mn Hockey teams are real careful and jump through the hoops needed to protect their status and also that of their associations. The affiliate agreement that they have signed with Mn Hockey is real specific about the following of USA Hockey and Mn Hockey rules. As for the one in Shattuck if problems occur the Mn Hockey and USA Hockey will have to deal with it.
It is a real shame when some who feel they do not have to follow the rules and procedures create the problems and added rules because of their arrogance. In the end it is the players that suffer shame on them.

[elliott70]

Ellliott,

What exactly is against the rules?

The USAH rule states that this type of event is a tournament and requires USAH sanctioning. I do not know the WH rules.
The MH rules are very clear on this type of event.
It seems to me the prudent thing to do is find out in advance (Edina - Wayzata) and then make a decision to participate or not.

From the WI side I would think it would be rather easy to send a form into USAH (and WH if necessary), then everyone is covered.

As far as the Shattuck thing goes - some of these Tier I organizations need to confer with USAH (and in this case MH) on what is necessary.

[elliott70]

Remeber is still not a tournament even thought the organizers are calling it a tournament... Check out the site

http://sites.google.com/site/superseriesorg/home

98s sure is a tournament. 97s is just four teams gettin' together. That's the one with Edina and Wayzata.

It is unfortunate that this gets considered a tournament by Minnesota Hockey. Remember, there are a lot of complaints that the mega associations (like Wayzata and Edina) don't field multiple A teams. They already play each other plenty. So rather than play Eden Prairie - again - these teams go out and schedule competitive games.

And the rule says what?

It is okay for you to play Alexandria, Albert Lea, and Austin. Not okay to play strong teams that came great distances to play an hour from your home.

Too bad.

Is there a provision for an appeal to get a waiver? Sure seems appropriate here. These teams aren't trophy hunting. They just want a test.

O Town - this rule is called the Moorhead rule via Edina.
These things were allowed until about 10 years ago. Moorhead held an annaul early season event (first weekend in November or so). Several TC teams and stronger northern MN teams

phone call will continue

[InigoMontoya]

Apparently you have never been involved with the Internal Revenue Code or you would understand that.

Elliot, I luv ya man, but you just made MNH analogous to the IRS. Nobody understands tax law, not the taxpayer, not the accountant, not the legislator that voted for it, not even the IRS agent that enforces it. That is why there are so many fights about it, and so many ways people find to cheat the system. I apologize, you're right, they are the same.

[buttend]

This is considered a tournament under USA Hockey rules and if in Somerset should be sanctioned under WAHA and in Mn under Mn Hockey. Buyer beware ask Moorhead what happened about 8 years ago.

Greybeard, I'm asking you, What crime/felony did a Moorhead youth hockey team commit 8 years ago under the watch of Mn Hockey that you are referring to? And what sentance did Mn Hockey impose on these bad boys?

[greybeard58]

Just went to the USA Hockey site clicked on Players then Invitational Tournaments, first Minn. Shattuck is not listed but the Eden Prairie one is, check Central, then Wisconsin and nothing listed for Somerset this weekend. Do not know how frequent the site is updated.

[greybeard58]

They hosted an 8 team tournament playing to a winner at both the A Peewee ans A Bantam level because they did not charge an entry fee or gate they probably felt they did not have to register as a tournament with Mn H. not sure exactly but fines were assessed to all with the host getting the biggest. Some coaches got suspensions and I know for sure that Moorhead has a 2 year ban on hosting tournament's at the 2 levels. At least that is what my cousin told me.Elliott could probably clarify.

[InTheKnow]

The Moorehead deal was not a tournament, it was the old style jamboree, were teams showed up and played 4 games and went home. No brackets, no champion, just scrimmages. MN Hockey got wind of it and went nuts like they always do.

Just like this deal in Somerset. Not a tournament in the definition of normal people, but a tournament according to MN Hockey. The only reason they want everything called a tournament is so they can make their money off of the hosting teams with a tourny fee. It all comes down to the $$$.

[InigoMontoya]

At least that is what my cousin told me.

Yes, this is cute, but unfortunately too many rules are written with opinions formed by this type of information distribution. Good way to find out about a still in the old chicken coop at the abandoned Sarsgaard place, but not good for creating policy.

[5thgraders]

This whole topic is Laurel and Hardy and I have not yet decided if greybeard is Laurel or if he is Hardy. Elliott I like what you do for the kids, but the rules are the rules not interpretations.

Let the Moms ref

Some of you can continue to hamper hockey for the KIDS.

[buttend]

The only reason they want everything called a tournament is so they can make their money off of the hosting teams with a tourny fee. It all comes down to the $$$.

Greybeard, Elliot

Is this the bottom line? What happens with the sanction process? Is there a fee to MN hockey or USA Hockey required to sanction a tournament?

[InigoMontoya]

This whole topic is Laurel and Hardy

Disagree. I find this high level stuff much more intriguing. It's about whether USAH/MNH can/should/do offer/enforce rules/suggestions. I'm sure there'll be plenty of upcoming discussion on who is the best 97 goalie, or who has the best pretzel with cheese, or why New Ulm doesn't get any respect.

In the meantime, I enjoy contemplating: Roseau and Rochester don't get to play each other very often, so they agree to meet in St Cloud for a scrimmage. St Cloud hears about it and thinks, "Hey, Roseau and Rochester will both be here, and we don't get to play them very often", so they rearrange some practice time to play them while they're in town. Uh-oh...tournament!!! Where is the common sense in that?

[elliott70]

Apparently you have never been involved with the Internal Revenue Code or you would understand that.

Elliot, I luv ya man, but you just made MNH analogous to the IRS. Nobody understands tax law, not the taxpayer, not the accountant, not the legislator that voted for it, not even the IRS agent that enforces it. That is why there are so many fights about it, and so many ways people find to cheat the system. I apologize, you're right, they are the same.

Yes, I know.
The rules are too cumbersome (IRS and hockey).
That is why I always give careful consideration to every vote and at time vote no.

Read my lips, ' no new rules.

[elliott70]

O Town - this rule is called the Moorhead rule via Edina.
These things were allowed until about 10 years ago. Moorhead held an annaul early season event (first weekend in November or so). Several TC teams and stronger northern MN teams

phone call will continue.....

It was a good event for the northern teams to finalize rosters for their A teams...
It was a good event for metro teams to try different combinations and test their teams...

But an Edina person saw something she did not like and called teh MH VP of tournaments and complained....

Moorhead was fined a $1000 or so and was barred from hositng certain events for 2 years...

Since I was running Bemidji I know what happened there, a $500 fine and a two game suspension for the Bantam A head coach.

Since this was not exactly set up a a tourneament - trophies, gate fee etc....
Moorhead felt it did not need to register....

So the birth of the 3 team at one site tournament rule...

the pendulum swings....
the Moorhead via Edina rule.

[elliott70]

The Moorehead deal was not a tournament, it was the old style jamboree, were teams showed up and played 4 games and went home. No brackets, no champion, just scrimmages. MN Hockey got wind of it and went nuts like they always do.

Just like this deal in Somerset. Not a tournament in the definition of normal people, but a tournament according to MN Hockey. The only reason they want everything called a tournament is so they can make their money off of the hosting teams with a tourny fee. It all comes down to the $$$.

This would be a USAH and possibly WH rule violation.
The fees would be paid to those organizations.

My concern is the MH teams participating.
Since this has become such public knowledge they need to cover their backsides.
MH rule is quite clear. This is a tournament (I am not saying it is a good rule - but Edina & Wayzata better know what they are doing),

[elliott70]

This whole topic is Laurel and Hardy and I have not yet decided if greybeard is Laurel or if he is Hardy. Elliott I like what you do for the kids, but the rules are the rules not interpretations.

Let the Moms ref

Some of you can continue to hamper hockey for the KIDS.

Everything is subject to interpretation.
Some rules are subject to my interpretation (the DD - not necessarily me)
some are subject to VP interpretations (some come under USAH rules).
When I am givien a situation by D16 associations I determine who is responsible for this rule, (hopefully I know the rule - if not look it up and make a phone call) - if me, I tell them how I want it handled - if it is someone other than me - I tell them the black and white of the rule and who to talk with to see if there is a way to get it done the way they want.