Lakeville South vs Winona? Please tell me this is false...

[Vinko Bogataj]

This thread exists solely because there is a large group of people on this board who consider it sport to slam anything Lakeville.

Finally- the state's secret anti-Lakeville conspiracy has been exposed!

[muckandgrind]

Shots were 81-12....24 shots in 3rd period after being up 13-0. Yeah, no attempt to run up the score......sure.

That's right, just kids playing hockey, pushing the puck toward the net. That's the object, right? This isn't adults playing monopoly with their 6 year olds..

No, but adults ARE supposed to be controlling the game from the bench. Absolutely no reason for the top players to be on the ice in the 3rd period. If it was strictly the 4th line guys scoring in the 3rd period, that's one thing. But when you top guys are racking up assists, that's a completely different story. It makes no difference to me if they were playing defense or forward, they shouldn't have been playing at all in that situation. They gain nothing out of it, other than rubbing it in on the opponents.

Since the 3rd period was running time, they probably could've sat the top TWO lines and just ran the 3rd and 4th liners without any problem. MAYBE sneak the 2nd line out there to "spell" the 3rd and 4th liners for a shift or two.

I don't blame the kids, the fault likes squarely with the coaches.

[RickyTicky]

Lets all argue this till the cats come home.. Yes, all the voodoo and bad karma will be on Lakeville if it makes you feel better. LS was not trying to run the score up bottom line and anyone who was at the game could see that. No, they didn't bench their top players and some may argue they should of but they did limit their shifts, moved them to different positions, and none of them actually scored a goal in the 3rd.. They were passing as much as they could until the net was so wide open it would of been more of an insult not to put it in. Neither team had anything to gain from playing this game but you have to play it anyways and it got ugly like they typically do.. I'm sure LS and Winona have moved on, everyone else should too.

[really?]

Lets all argue this till the cats come home.. Yes, all the voodoo and bad karma will be on Lakeville if it makes you feel better. LS was not trying to run the score up bottom line and anyone who was at the game could see that. No, they didn't bench their top players and some may argue they should of but they did limit their shifts, moved them to different positions, and none of them actually scored a goal in the 3rd.. They were passing as much as they could until the net was so wide open it would of been more of an insult not to put it in. Neither team had anything to gain from playing this game but you have to play it anyways and it got ugly like they typically do.. I'm sure LS and Winona have moved on, everyone else should too.

[Vinko Bogataj]

Lets all argue this till the cats come home.

What the h=ll does Eagan got to do wit it?

Yes- just trying to pad my post count.

[goldy313]

I hate these blowouts and wish they didn't happen but they do.

But let's be honest this isn't a Lakeville South issue, this is a get rid of Kurt Weber issue. At least a couple of posters in this thread have said in other topics that he needs to go, the parents got rid of Randy Schmitz at Lakeville North and there is a group that wants Weber to go as well. To my point...

In 3 pages there is 1 mention of the other blow outs and there are no seperate topics on Maple Grove winning by 15, Edina winning by 14, or the teams that won by 12. What is the difference in 15, 14, or 19? A blow out is a blow out.

Eric Baskin from Minnetonka had 2 points in the 3rd period of his 8 in total, Dylan Steman from Maple Grove scored the 7th, 8th, 10th, and assissted on the 11th goal. These aren't third line players either putting up big numbers in blow outs. I don't have an Edina/Kennedy box score but I'm sure it is similar.

Had South beat Winona 6-0 or 8-0 the same people complaing would be complaining how Winona had been beaten by at least 10 already this year by John Marshall and Century and this shows how bad South is prepared for the playoffs. Just 2 years ago South was the #1 seed and beat #9 Dodge County 4-2, after trailing 2-1 going into the third period.

Again I hate these blowouts and wish they didn't have to happen but this is more an anti Kurt Weber thread than a blowout thread.

[starmvp]

Lets all argue this till the cats come home.. Yes, all the voodoo and bad karma will be on Lakeville if it makes you feel better. LS was not trying to run the score up bottom line and anyone who was at the game could see that. No, they didn't bench their top players and some may argue they should of but they did limit their shifts, moved them to different positions, and none of them actually scored a goal in the 3rd.. They were passing as much as they could until the net was so wide open it would of been more of an insult not to put it in. Neither team had anything to gain from playing this game but you have to play it anyways and it got ugly like they typically do.. I'm sure LS and Winona have moved on, everyone else should too.

Bottom line.... You sit a kid with 7 points after two periods to not only rest him, but to keep him from getting hurt. You don't sit him if the game is within 8 or 9 or even 12, but 19?? You don't score with 15 seconds left either...

[Roy01]

In a section game of mine about 5 years ago we were up on a team by about 12 after two and our coach took off our first line and ran our second every other shift. There's absolutely no reason to 1. keep your top boys out there, and 2. completely destroy a team that badly... Granted it's section and you don't want to let up so you keep playing with the same tenacity at all times, but there's no reason to put up 19 or much less keep your best players out till the final seconds...

[Tigers33]

I dont think many people on this site are ripping into the lakeville players or parents, maybe

The issue is obviously more with the coach and his staff. This kind of stuff can be eliminated in the game and its not that difficult to do. Its usually pretty hard to do this in running time too. Or isnt there running time in the playoffs. Most teams that blowout other teams are usually only scoring once or twice in the third, but 6?!?!
Solutions:
1 - Its a playoff game so you obviously have a 4th line dressed. These kids probably rarely play varsity throughout the season. Let them play as much as possible. Every other shift, or at least every three shifts. Play the third line as much as possible.
2 - When the 2nd and 1st line are out there adjust your playing style. Every coach needs chances to work on things, this could have been the opportunity to work on new things. Run a 1-2-2 forecheck with your top two lines. Work and dump and chase. Have your goalie cover the puck as much as possible if its running times.
3 - Respect the game and the opponent so much that you as a coach wont let this stuff happen. I think a lot of people would have no issue with this stuff if the 4th line kids were getting all the goals. But that doesnt happen. Unfortunately today a lot of coaches have larger ego's than necessary.

[stopper1]

Isn't that what parents do in Lakeville drive out coaches without any real reason. They Fired the South Girls Coach after making it to the state tournament and brought in the super staff with Darwitz. Last I checked their season was over. They Fire Schmitz for no real reason the year after they go the state tournament and finally take home a trophy. Parents down there look for every excuse and cry to the administration to get what they want. If South goes to the State Tournament I would guess that its not good enough for the Lakeville parents and Webers job may be jeapordy. Seems to have become the way down their.

[RickyTicky]

Stopper- It is the way of life there, all parents believe their kid is the next Crosby and its the coaching that is holding them back.. name one kid from Lakeville to play in the NHL.. They got rid of Schmitz at North for the "super staff" that led them to an amazing 12-13 regular season record and tied for 6th in the SSC. Now there is a group that wants to get rid of Weber who has done nothing but improved this team year after year. If he was so bad, why would Kloos come back for Junior or Senior years. You could bring Wayne Gretzky into Lakeville and they would drive him out in 2-3 years.. something in the water down there

[stopper1]

I agree Ricky. Too bad because they lose a lot of good people who truly cared about the kids and their success not only on the rink, but after their high school hockey career is over.

[keepyourheadup]

In defense of Lakeville parents..... ALL of them are not crazy, it just seems it only takes a few idiots to get people all spooled up.

[Jimbo99]

I hate these blowouts and wish they didn't happen but they do.

But let's be honest this isn't a Lakeville South issue, this is a get rid of Kurt Weber issue. At least a couple of posters in this thread have said in other topics that he needs to go, the parents got rid of Randy Schmitz at Lakeville North and there is a group that wants Weber to go as well. To my point...

In 3 pages there is 1 mention of the other blow outs and there are no seperate topics on Maple Grove winning by 15, Edina winning by 14, or the teams that won by 12. What is the difference in 15, 14, or 19? A blow out is a blow out.

Eric Baskin from Minnetonka had 2 points in the 3rd period of his 8 in total, Dylan Steman from Maple Grove scored the 7th, 8th, 10th, and assissted on the 11th goal. These aren't third line players either putting up big numbers in blow outs. I don't have an Edina/Kennedy box score but I'm sure it is similar.

Had South beat Winona 6-0 or 8-0 the same people complaing would be complaining how Winona had been beaten by at least 10 already this year by John Marshall and Century and this shows how bad South is prepared for the playoffs. Just 2 years ago South was the #1 seed and beat #9 Dodge County 4-2, after trailing 2-1 going into the third period.

Again I hate these blowouts and wish they didn't have to happen but this is more an anti Kurt Weber thread than a blowout thread.

Goldy lays it out well.

[stopper1]

In defense of Lakeville parents..... ALL of them are not crazy, it just seems it only takes a few idiots to get people all spooled up.

Then its too bad the one's who aren't crazy don't stand to the ones that are and take care of the issue. It makes all them look bad as a group.

[keepyourheadup]

If thats the case then those making the assumptions are just as bad. I am a Lakeville parent and have chosen to stay on the sideline while both my kids played their way through the system. What people on the outside believe and reality are two different things. Is Kurt Weber the perfect coach...no...but like most others he has his good and no so good qualities. Is it worth my time to get involved on either side of a coaching issue....no. It really should take something pretty alarming to get a coach removed. I like to think most parents should think this way....
players play
coaches coach
parents watch
I feel absolutely no obligation to stick my nose where it doesn't belong.

[Defensive Zone]

One small note also, If you look at the boxscore Matt Lembeck scored the 4th goal of the game. That was his first varsity goal (I think) in what might have been his first actual varsity playing time. It appears from just a boxscore that Weber was playing everyone the whole game. That being said having played for LS and been apart of multiple blow outs against teams like Bloomington Kennedy, I know we backed off in those days , and would play our 3rd and 4th the whole third period. As keepyourheadup said, I don't know what was different about last night. Maybe LS third and fourth lines were that much better too. The only plausible answer for having the big names in in the third period is that Coach Weber wanted the seniors to be on the ice in their last ever home game.

I think another part of the problem is that stats are more public and well organized then ever before (online on the HUB). Many coaches are allowing their players to pile on points to help them 'look good'. As much as people say that scouts don't care about points, top point getters are the thing recorded in the paper, on the front page of the HUB (and listed under each team page) and something people talk about all the time (see other threads looking to list 100, 200 pt+ etc.). Stats are more public then ever, get constant attention and therefore competition for points sometimes gets out of hand. Some coaches have people in charge of changing recorded stats, adding extra assists and going out of their way to boost points for their players. It's no wonder that players on these teams start thinking that getting credit and putting up points is nearly as important as winning the games.

I also don't like the format of H.S. hockey letting every team into the playoffs. It creates these awful games where you have 1 & 2 seeded teams destroying the 7 & 8 seeds. Just a few other scores from last night:

Eagan 12 Rosemount 0
Edina 15 Kennedy 1
Burnsville 9 Shakopee 0
Minnetonka 12 Mpls. 0
Hermantown 11 Moose lake 1
St. Thomas 11 Sibley 1

Do any of these games benefit either team? They are a wasted game that coaches are forced to deal with on their schedule. In most cases it is the final home game for seniors and coaches want to let them play but everyone knows the scores are going to be lopsided. They play their best goalies so he can get game prep before the game in a few days, they let their PP lines work out any final kinks and they try to cool the scoring down without actually telling kids to not try anymore. Playing 3rd and 4th lines more can actually increase the scoring because they are out to get goals.

As long as MSHSL sets these games up, there are going to be blowouts. As long as there are blowouts there are going to be people complaining that the coaches handled things wrong. It sounds like the LS coach switched guys to different positions, played them less and at least backed his top scorer from scoring goals. I would prefer to see a coach sit players starting earlier in the game (once the lead is 5 goals). I think this was the more common method in the past but things seem to have changed.

S/K…all good points! I do not know if the MSHSL philosophy (all teams participate) is a good thing or bad thing. I do know that this belief has been around since dirt was invented. On one hand you want to give every student the opportunity to play and on the other, you want equality. Unfortunately, with the wide range of diverse hockey talent in the state, you will have blowouts. On the flip side, you can have that exciting game that you always will remember or even that big up-set. Take your pick!

[Jimbo99]

If thats the case then those making the assumptions are just as bad. I am a Lakeville parent and have chosen to stay on the sideline while both my kids played their way through the system. What people on the outside believe and reality are two different things. Is Kurt Weber the perfect coach...no...but like most others he has his good and no so good qualities. Is it worth my time to get involved on either side of a coaching issue....no. It really should take something pretty alarming to get a coach removed. I like to think most parents should think this way....
players play
coaches coach
parents watch
I feel absolutely no obligation to stick my nose where it doesn't belong.

Interesting. But you're not shy about throwing in your "bottom line" or coaching critiques above and your a long way from annonymous on this board, especially in this thread. Sideline? I don't think so.

"It really should take something pretty alarming to get a coach removed."

We can agree on that though.

[Iceman82]

It's not the kids or the team but the coaches who continue to run their first lines. Looking back over this year, there are some really blow out games by St Thomas, HillM, Chanhansen, Lakeville S, Benilde. The all time winner for multiple blow outs this year is none other than Breck with four games won by more than 10 points. I guess that's why Les Larsen feels safe staying in single "A" than "AA".

[HShockeywatcher]

While I'm generally on the fence, or if I had to pick leaning away from major, on this issue, it is always interesting that those who say this is "classless" generally never bring up alternatives, draw a line, or respond to those on the opposing side who give first person accounts and opinions.

I'm not going to say his opinion is wrong, or he may not have a teammate with a similar opinion, but a player from the Winona team last year that got beat by Lakeville South 8-1. Generally talking to players they don't want the other team to stop.

Isn't this about the kids? It is usually more humiliating to the kids for the other team to stop trying, so why would we want that? Plus, as was pointed out, it can be nice for the lower lines to be on the ice with the really good player.

[Sats81]

Hey, at least we know now what Kloos would do from a PTs production standpoint on a Moose Lake/Cisar brother like schedule!

[muckandgrind]

While I'm generally on the fence, or if I had to pick leaning away from major, on this issue, it is always interesting that those who say this is "classless" generally never bring up alternatives, draw a line, or respond to those on the opposing side who give first person accounts and opinions.

I'm not going to say his opinion is wrong, or he may not have a teammate with a similar opinion, but a player from the Winona team last year that got beat by Lakeville South 8-1. Generally talking to players they don't want the other team to stop.

Isn't this about the kids? It is usually more humiliating to the kids for the other team to stop trying, so why would we want that? Plus, as was pointed out, it can be nice for the lower lines to be on the ice with the really good player.

Then you haven't been reading all the posts on this thread. There have been MANY alternatives suggested:

1) Sit the top forwards and defensemen at the beginning of the 3rd period.
2) Run the 3rd and 4th liners out most of the time, with the 2nd line coming out every 5th shift.
3) Institute the "three pass rule" before you shoot.
4) Go with a 1-2-2 forecheck.

"Isn't this about the kids?"

Great question...the answer is YES!!! That's why you don't run up the score!!! You don't need to give up or make it obvious, but you can do things (some of which I listed above) so as to not kick the other team when they are down. They are more than likely already feeling defeated headed into the 3rd period and are just waiting for the clock to run down, is it really necessary to put another 6 up on the board with your top players still racking up points in the final minute?

[NoExcuses]

The bottom line is that the coach can control the game. Some coaches can handle it, some don't know what to do, or just choose to run up the score.

One of the best coach I've seen handle these situations was Trebil at AHA. When they had their dominate teams and the game was turning into a blowout, he was basically running a practice in the third period. Example: Everytime the other team iced the puck the AHA goalie would stop it before it crossed the goal line which forced his team to come all the way back, set up behind their net and run different breakouts.

The point is, he found ways to make his players work hard in the third period without scoring 6 goals.

[keepyourheadup]

Like I said he isn't perfect , I believe he made a mistake...last time I checked I think its something we all do. What I didn't do was call for his head on a platter or start a movement to get him fired. Simply didn't agree with how he used his players last night. If he (weber) suffers the same fate as Schmitz I won't be surprised but I also won't have anything to do with it.

[RickyTicky]

[quote="keepyourheadup"]Like I said he isn't perfect , I believe he made a mistake...last time I checked I think its something we all do. What I didn't do was call for his head on a platter or start a movement to get him fired. Simply didn't agree with how he used his players last night. If he (weber) suffers the same fate as Schmitz I won't be surprised but I also won't have anything to do with it.[/quote]

Agreed.. No history of running up the score so you have to let this one slide. We may get to see if they handle things differently tomorrow as it could be another very lopsided game..