Is your son an elite player?

[SnowedIn]

I gotta agree with trash hauler. Yeah, he's throwing blankets, but parents have absolutely no idea if their kid falls under that blanket or not. How do you know if your present highly motivated Johnny will remain that way until he is 18? There is risk there for sure. Apparently, many parents are willing to take that risk and many will no doubt be disappointed with their child's motivation and drive in future years.

I agree somewhat with most opinions. But what I m not getting is advise on what you should do if Johnny superstar is highly motivated and wants to play year round. Do you tell him no? because he might want quit later and hate me for it.

Age is a factor in answering that question. Is he/she 6, 10. 15? If we relate it to gifted learners, it's more important to encourage a 6 year old to explore other interests, and yes even limit how much time they spend on academic activities. If your 14 or 15 year old has decided to make the stretch for Valedictorian they are in a better position to make that determination and should then, MOSTLY on their own, make decisions and spend their time actively pursuing that. Even at that age, if the parents take on the goal for the student, and begin dreaming of the possibilities, there is not always, but often push back from the student. Here is the most basic of theories. When a child reaches adolescence, it is normal and almost expected for them to begin to explore their own capabilities outside of what others want for them, even going against what we want for them. For this reason, many gifted children that have been labeled, and most importantly, set on a path, at a young age go along with it for a period of time, but often rebel against it later. Guess what, your child may be a genious, but if you constantly place life expectations on them that are bigger than their current life view, the fail to reach their potential. I know, everyone says, I don't do that, they do it because they love it. They may very well love it. But if the parents then fall in love with that fact that they love it, they often reach a point of not loving it, just because they want it to be their decision. 6-11 year olds rarely show this. They wait until they are older. They often feel that decision making has been taked away, because others have now fallen deeply in love with the child's dreams, so they get a new one that is all their own. It is virtually impossible to hide this from the child as they grow and mature.

Do I think this applies to everyone? Of course not. I will stand by my statement that it happens ALOT. Do the same or similar theories apply to kids playing hockey as students in school? I believe they do.

Agree that the ADM concept that USA Hockey is pushing regarding age appropriate training is very relevant. Also agree that parents know their children and how to push buttons. However as far as making decisions for and with children - and we are talking about children here - as parents we are helping shape the way they think. I'm not talking about forcing them to play a sport they don't want to play. Like in my earlier post I'm talking about nurturing them to think big, dream big and work hard to pursue those dreams no matter what they are. Learn from their failures big and small and use that learning to help in the process of growing as an athlete, student and person. That type of nurturing leads to success through failure and does not linger on the dissappointment of failure.

Even as adults we can learn this. We all have internal representations of everything that we hear, see and read. These filters form our beliefs which form our goals and then ultimately our actions. These internal representations are molded into us throughout our lives and start when we babies. As parents, we for better or worse, have a great deal of influence on these internal representations. Encouraging a child to be all they can be and help them understand lifes lesson that failure leads to learning and success whether it be in sport/school/life will help them develop glass is half full internal representations. Like an earlier poster said if they know they are loved regardless of the outcome and they understand failure is not a bad thing, and infact is a good thing, then pulling back the reins is not necessary.

[Trash Hauler]

Trash hauler is generalizing but I think is 100% correct that many don't realize they have gone too far, until they've gone too far and can't go back.

This is nuts is asking for specific advice for a specific kid? Can't do that without knowing that kid. But I think if you have to ask...

icehornet seems to me to be the classic example. "parents need to be careful how hard and far they push" then asks why "parents shouldn't allow kids to shoot for the stars". It is a balancing act, but many parents are pushing their kid to reach the parent's "shooting for the stars" vision. Few 8 year olds really grasp dedication, work ethic and long range goal attainment.

I m not really asking for advise Badger, more less making the point of at what point do you pull the reigns back on a kid who wants to play. I don't push him at all. I wish he liked baseball. I will say this to ppl who beleive kids shouldn't play summer hockey. is 3-4 hrs a week on the rink extreme.? I dont think so... leaves plenty of time to do other things.

I have a good handle on what is good for my kid, as i understand what is good for one kid is not good for another.

I think it is as simple as asking your kid "how things are going"? and "if they are getting tired of playing?" because if you dont ask they will often not tell you...

Maybe not quite that simple.....but great advice. Paying attention to their attitude, particularly to their attitude at home with their family is a great way to check in. Kids often have a blast when they are playing with their friends, but then are crabby at home.

Saying no, may not be what you think. How twisted are you allowing your family life to be to accomodate another fall 3 on 3 league? What affect is it having on school work, family dinners, other activites to the exclusivity of hockey, or piano playing for that matter. I will say it again. Does this apply to everyone? Nope. Does it apply way more than people are willing to admit? Yup.

[Trash Hauler]

What if my kid is Johnny average or better Johnny Edgeless. Keeping that my kids are average or below in mind, they still want to play non-stop. Do the same burnout rules still apply? Or do I throw all that out the window because I know he will never be Johnny Superstar and just let em play as much as they want and if they burnout, so what?

The burnout comes mostly from the mental demands and not as much the physical demands. The both factor in, but primarily mental. Good chance if he is truly "edgless", and you truly understand that, he gets to play without being burdened with load of fullfilling the dreams of others. He even might get to enjoy having the dream himself, without others latching on and "helping" him reach those lofty goals.

Thats why unstructured play is so important and unfortunate that it has both fallen by the wayside, and been taken away by the demands of structured training. Very little play time with no mental demands.

[Mite-dad]

Trash hauler is generalizing but I think is 100% correct that many don't realize they have gone too far, until they've gone too far and can't go back.

This is nuts is asking for specific advice for a specific kid? Can't do that without knowing that kid. But I think if you have to ask...

icehornet seems to me to be the classic example. "parents need to be careful how hard and far they push" then asks why "parents shouldn't allow kids to shoot for the stars". It is a balancing act, but many parents are pushing their kid to reach the parent's "shooting for the stars" vision. Few 8 year olds really grasp dedication, work ethic and long range goal attainment.

I m not really asking for advise Badger, more less making the point of at what point do you pull the reigns back on a kid who wants to play. I don't push him at all. I wish he liked baseball. I will say this to ppl who beleive kids shouldn't play summer hockey. is 3-4 hrs a week on the rink extreme.? I dont think so... leaves plenty of time to do other things.

I have a good handle on what is good for my kid, as i understand what is good for one kid is not good for another.

I think it is as simple as asking your kid "how things are going"? and "if they are getting tired of playing?" because if you dont ask they will often not tell you...

Maybe not quite that simple.....but great advice. Paying attention to their attitude, particularly to their attitude at home with their family is a great way to check in. Kids often have a blast when they are playing with their friends, but then are crabby at home.

Saying no, may not be what you think. How twisted are you allowing your family life to be to accomodate another fall 3 on 3 league? What affect is it having on school work, family dinners, other activites to the exclusivity of hockey, or piano playing for that matter. I will say it again. Does this apply to everyone? Nope. Does it apply way more than people are willing to admit? Yup.

Do you think by saying no to 3 on 3 that, when he does start hockey again, he will be more excited and motivated to play? And BTW, baseball was my least favorite sport and I often told my dad not to sign me up for summer ball. It ended up paying for most of my college bills at a D1 school. Sometimes we are best at a sport we like the least. If you think your son is an elite hockey player he is probably a great athlete all around and should be involved in other sports that he might be even better at.

[JSR]

Trash hauler is generalizing but I think is 100% correct that many don't realize they have gone too far, until they've gone too far and can't go back.

This is nuts is asking for specific advice for a specific kid? Can't do that without knowing that kid. But I think if you have to ask...

icehornet seems to me to be the classic example. "parents need to be careful how hard and far they push" then asks why "parents shouldn't allow kids to shoot for the stars". It is a balancing act, but many parents are pushing their kid to reach the parent's "shooting for the stars" vision. Few 8 year olds really grasp dedication, work ethic and long range goal attainment.

I m not really asking for advise Badger, more less making the point of at what point do you pull the reigns back on a kid who wants to play. I don't push him at all. I wish he liked baseball. I will say this to ppl who beleive kids shouldn't play summer hockey. is 3-4 hrs a week on the rink extreme.? I dont think so... leaves plenty of time to do other things.

I have a good handle on what is good for my kid, as i understand what is good for one kid is not good for another.

I think it is as simple as asking your kid "how things are going"? and "if they are getting tired of playing?" because if you dont ask they will often not tell you...

Maybe not quite that simple.....but great advice. Paying attention to their attitude, particularly to their attitude at home with their family is a great way to check in. Kids often have a blast when they are playing with their friends, but then are crabby at home.

Saying no, may not be what you think. How twisted are you allowing your family life to be to accomodate another fall 3 on 3 league? What affect is it having on school work, family dinners, other activites to the exclusivity of hockey, or piano playing for that matter. I will say it again. Does this apply to everyone? Nope. Does it apply way more than people are willing to admit? Yup.

The statistics do not bear out what you are saying. It definitely exists but not to the degree you are purporting. If it did the drop out rate would be WAY higher than it is and to take that a step further in actuality the biggest drop out rate is not within the kids who excel at the sport and are thus most likely being pushed by driven parents. The stats and causal observation just do not support that. The ones who excel and the in turn are being pushed have a very low drop out rate, it is the average to below average who have the highest drop out rate and casual observation has told me the average to below average rarely have the super driven parent behind them. I believe all exist and all exist in every facet I just see zero evidence to support the statement of it "applying to way more than people are willing to admit". I have three kids, I've been coaching kids for 15 years in two sports. I've seen all extremes and I've seen virtually all outcomes and I can also tell you this, it's a RARE kid who gets to D1 that doesn't have a driven parent behind them, how they drive and push them has varied but none have had parents who have the attitude of "sit back and relax and it'll be what it'll be", sorry kids who excel have parents who excel an overwhelming majority of the time, success breeds success, period

[icehornet]

icehornet seems to me to be the classic example. "parents need to be careful how hard and far they push" then asks why "parents shouldn't allow kids to shoot for the stars". It is a balancing act, but many parents are pushing their kid to reach the parent's "shooting for the stars" vision. Few 8 year olds really grasp dedication, work ethic and long range goal attainment.

These are two different things in my mind. Kids should be able to dream big, but as Trash Hauler has pointed out and one of the points I agree with, is that when it becomes the parents dream it is a completely different situation. Being careful how hard and far a parent pushes will always be a balancing act in nearly every aspect of raising Johnny superstar.

You make a good point that few 8 year olds understand what it takes to reach far off goals. The question each parent needs to answer and figure out is how do you take on that responsibility (and teach your kid these skills over the years) without driving yourself and your kid off the deep end.

Everyone has their own opinions and every situation is going to be different. I think trash hauler makes some good points but I also think it's okay for parents to drive little Johnny around and let him skate nearly year round if that's what he loves. I'm still a big advocate of multi-sport athletes as it helps development in any sport but specialization at an early age isn't all bad if it's done in the right circumstances. I guess when my little Johnny gets to the age where he can start playing hockey I can revisit this thread and try to gain a little insight from each side. Most of my comments are based on coaching experiences (not hockey) from elementary aged kids through high school.

[edgeless2]

What if my kid is Johnny average or better Johnny Edgeless. Keeping that my kids are average or below in mind, they still want to play non-stop. Do the same burnout rules still apply? Or do I throw all that out the window because I know he will never be Johnny Superstar and just let em play as much as they want and if they burnout, so what?

The burnout comes mostly from the mental demands and not as much the physical demands. The both factor in, but primarily mental. Good chance if he is truly "edgless", and you truly understand that, he gets to play without being burdened with load of fullfilling the dreams of others. He even might get to enjoy having the dream himself, without others latching on and "helping" him reach those lofty goals.

Thats why unstructured play is so important and unfortunate that it has both fallen by the wayside, and been taken away by the demands of structured training. Very little play time with no mental demands.

Well said. But I would consider 3v3 unstructured. I consider MASH and Showcase basically unstructured. There are options out there to mix and match with structured training that takes the pressure off, while still developing and I think this is very important. Especially for Johnny Superstar. I loved dreaming of the NHL and Olympics as a child but I had to train in a structured environment just to make my HS team, did I love it all the time? No, but my father knew and I knew deep down that if I didn't bust my can I wouldn't have made it that far. Thanks for push Pops.

[This is nuts!]

Trash hauler is generalizing but I think is 100% correct that many don't realize they have gone too far, until they've gone too far and can't go back.

This is nuts is asking for specific advice for a specific kid? Can't do that without knowing that kid. But I think if you have to ask...

icehornet seems to me to be the classic example. "parents need to be careful how hard and far they push" then asks why "parents shouldn't allow kids to shoot for the stars". It is a balancing act, but many parents are pushing their kid to reach the parent's "shooting for the stars" vision. Few 8 year olds really grasp dedication, work ethic and long range goal attainment.

I m not really asking for advise Badger, more less making the point of at what point do you pull the reigns back on a kid who wants to play. I don't push him at all. I wish he liked baseball. I will say this to ppl who beleive kids shouldn't play summer hockey. is 3-4 hrs a week on the rink extreme.? I dont think so... leaves plenty of time to do other things.

I have a good handle on what is good for my kid, as i understand what is good for one kid is not good for another.

I think it is as simple as asking your kid "how things are going"? and "if they are getting tired of playing?" because if you dont ask they will often not tell you...

Maybe not quite that simple.....but great advice. Paying attention to their attitude, particularly to their attitude at home with their family is a great way to check in. Kids often have a blast when they are playing with their friends, but then are crabby at home.

Saying no, may not be what you think. How twisted are you allowing your family life to be to accomodate another fall 3 on 3 league? What affect is it having on school work, family dinners, other activites to the exclusivity of hockey, or piano playing for that matter. I will say it again. Does this apply to everyone? Nope. Does it apply way more than people are willing to admit? Yup.

I did somewhat agree with you but I ll say this. How twisted am I? Really! I m not making him play, could care less if he does or not. You have no right telling me that I m affecting my family life, dinners, other activitys to accomodate a 3 on 3 league. This league is 12 hrs of hockey over a 60 day period. Big sacrafice.

By the way we eat as a family every night at about 4:30 if you ever want to join us and discuss what is good for my family.

By the way my son's homework that he apparantly wont be able to do is not a factor. His MAP scores are as high as his teacher has seen. If you are an educator you know what that means. I m extremly proud of how he performs in school.

I love the way ppl can know everything about you and your family without even meeting them..

[This is nuts!]

I agree somewhat with most opinions. But what I m not getting is advise on what you should do if Johnny superstar is highly motivated and wants to play year round. Do you tell him no? because he might want quit later and hate me for it.

Age is a factor in answering that question. Is he/she 6, 10. 15? If we relate it to gifted learners, it's more important to encourage a 6 year old to explore other interests, and yes even limit how much time they spend on academic activities. If your 14 or 15 year old has decided to make the stretch for Valedictorian they are in a better position to make that determination and should then, MOSTLY on their own, make decisions and spend their time actively pursuing that. Even at that age, if the parents take on the goal for the student, and begin dreaming of the possibilities, there is not always, but often push back from the student. Here is the most basic of theories. When a child reaches adolescence, it is normal and almost expected for them to begin to explore their own capabilities outside of what others want for them, even going against what we want for them. For this reason, many gifted children that have been labeled, and most importantly, set on a path, at a young age go along with it for a period of time, but often rebel against it later. Guess what, your child may be a genious, but if you constantly place life expectations on them that are bigger than their current life view, the fail to reach their potential. I know, everyone says, I don't do that, they do it because they love it. They may very well love it. But if the parents then fall in love with that fact that they love it, they often reach a point of not loving it, just because they want it to be their decision. 6-11 year olds rarely show this. They wait until they are older. They often feel that decision making has been taked away, because others have now fallen deeply in love with the child's dreams, so they get a new one that is all their own. It is virtually impossible to hide this from the child as they grow and mature.

Do I think this applies to everyone? Of course not. I will stand by my statement that it happens ALOT. Do the same or similar theories apply to kids playing hockey as students in school? I believe they do.

Agree that the ADM concept that USA Hockey is pushing regarding age appropriate training is very relevant. Also agree that parents know their children and how to push buttons. However as far as making decisions for and with children - and we are talking about children here - as parents we are helping shape the way they think. I'm not talking about forcing them to play a sport they don't want to play. Like in my earlier post I'm talking about nurturing them to think big, dream big and work hard to pursue those dreams no matter what they are. Learn from their failures big and small and use that learning to help in the process of growing as an athlete, student and person. That type of nurturing leads to success through failure and does not linger on the dissappointment of failure.

Even as adults we can learn this. We all have internal representations of everything that we hear, see and read. These filters form our beliefs which form our goals and then ultimately our actions. These internal representations are molded into us throughout our lives and start when we babies. As parents, we for better or worse, have a great deal of influence on these internal representations. Encouraging a child to be all they can be and help them understand lifes lesson that failure leads to learning and success whether it be in sport/school/life will help them develop glass is half full internal representations. Like an earlier poster said if they know they are loved regardless of the outcome and they understand failure is not a bad thing, and infact is a good thing, then pulling back the reins is not necessary.

Agreed Snow, well said!

[jpiehl]

Maybe not quite that simple.....but great advice. Paying attention to their attitude, particularly to their attitude at home with their family is a great way to check in. Kids often have a blast when they are playing with their friends, but then are crabby at home.

Saying no, may not be what you think. How twisted are you allowing your family life to be to accomodate another fall 3 on 3 league? What affect is it having on school work, family dinners, other activites to the exclusivity of hockey, or piano playing for that matter. I will say it again. Does this apply to everyone? Nope. Does it apply way more than people are willing to admit? Yup.

So my oldest kid, an average to slightly above average player, gets crabby at home when he isn't on the ice for about two weeks. Then, when he goes to the rink, is a whole new kid when he gets home. So by that advice I should be making him play more?

[Trash Hauler]

I m not really asking for advise Badger, more less making the point of at what point do you pull the reigns back on a kid who wants to play. I don't push him at all. I wish he liked baseball. I will say this to ppl who beleive kids shouldn't play summer hockey. is 3-4 hrs a week on the rink extreme.? I dont think so... leaves plenty of time to do other things.

I have a good handle on what is good for my kid, as i understand what is good for one kid is not good for another.

I think it is as simple as asking your kid "how things are going"? and "if they are getting tired of playing?" because if you dont ask they will often not tell you...

Maybe not quite that simple.....but great advice. Paying attention to their attitude, particularly to their attitude at home with their family is a great way to check in. Kids often have a blast when they are playing with their friends, but then are crabby at home.

Saying no, may not be what you think. How twisted are you allowing your family life to be to accomodate another fall 3 on 3 league? What affect is it having on school work, family dinners, other activites to the exclusivity of hockey, or piano playing for that matter. I will say it again. Does this apply to everyone? Nope. Does it apply way more than people are willing to admit? Yup.

I did somewhat agree with you but I ll say this. How twisted am I? Really! I m not making him play, could care less if he does or not. You have no right telling me that I m affecting my family life, dinners, other activitys to accomodate a 3 on 3 league. This league is 12 hrs of hockey over a 60 day period. Big sacrafice.

By the way we eat as a family every night at about 4:30 if you ever want to join us and discuss what is good for my family.

By the way my son's homework that he apparantly wont be able to do is not a factor. His MAP scores are as high as his teacher has seen. If you are an educator you know what that means. I m extremly proud of how he performs in school.

I love the way ppl can know everything about you and your family without even meeting them..

Well, actually I was giving my thoughts on how to know when to say no, and making no direct correlation to your family in particular. It was a general statement directed to anyone that wants to listen. Sounds like you have it all together......except of course when you lost it after misinterpreting my post.

[Trash Hauler]

Maybe not quite that simple.....but great advice. Paying attention to their attitude, particularly to their attitude at home with their family is a great way to check in. Kids often have a blast when they are playing with their friends, but then are crabby at home.

Saying no, may not be what you think. How twisted are you allowing your family life to be to accomodate another fall 3 on 3 league? What affect is it having on school work, family dinners, other activites to the exclusivity of hockey, or piano playing for that matter. I will say it again. Does this apply to everyone? Nope. Does it apply way more than people are willing to admit? Yup.

So my oldest kid, an average to slightly above average player, gets crabby at home when he isn't on the ice for about two weeks. Then, when he goes to the rink, is a whole new kid when he gets home. So by that advice I should be making him play more?

I guess if sarcasm is what you are after, I can play that too. I made a simple, very uncomplicated statement. When you use the phrase "making him play more" you hit the nail on the head. Make him do whatever YOU think he should do, and reap the rewards. If I assume your oldest kid is older than 13 or so he may be telling YOU where to go and what you can do with it pretty soon, if not already. Freedom to make their own decisions within certain boundaries is very healthy. Yah, Yah, I know. The kid wants to play all the time, so I let him. No problem, I will say it again, it's when the parent falls in love with, and takes responsibility for the kids dreams that the problems begin. Yah, Yah I know. I'm not like that. Virtually all parents, do this to one degree or another. It's the degree that matters. Do you feel no anxiety whatsoever while waiting for tryout results? Be honest (again, not directed at you personally, but making a general statement. I don't mean for anyone else to pop a bolt)

[barry_mcconnell]

I did somewhat agree with you but I ll say this. How twisted am I? Really! I m not making him play, could care less if he does or not. You have no right telling me that I m affecting my family life, dinners, other activitys to accomodate a 3 on 3 league. This league is 12 hrs of hockey over a 60 day period. Big sacrafice.

By the way we eat as a family every night at about 4:30 if you ever want to join us and discuss what is good for my family.

By the way my son's homework that he apparantly wont be able to do is not a factor. His MAP scores are as high as his teacher has seen. If you are an educator you know what that means. I m extremly proud of how he performs in school.

I love the way ppl can know everything about you and your family without even meeting them..

First of all, 4:30 is obviously way too early to eat dinner. Optimal dinner time is between 6-6:30.

Secondly, if you are looking to help your kid succeed scholastically you need to get him/her enrolled in some top-notch enrichment programs before it's too late. Saturday enrichment programs are kind of like breakfast clubs for brainy kids. Evaluations (think tryouts) are coming up soon. I'll post later which kids make it into the top tier group if people are interested.

[MrBoDangles]

Based on your previous posts I find it hard to believe he can have a blast with no Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota. You constantly advocate for a different system to allow the "elite" players to have better opportunities and then say it's all about fun and doing what the kid wants to do. I don't believe for one second you would pull him in a minute, and certainly not in a hearbeat. In fact, I would put odds on him subconcously knowing how much it would disappoint you if he let on that some days he's had enough. That will come when your approval means less to him than asserting his independence.

You make practice/training sound like a terrible thing. Some kids actually have fun at practice.

I'm all about options for kids from third world associations. Not sure why a kid from a mega association would need tier 1..

No, practice is not a bad thing. The title of this tread is "Is your son and elite player?" As always, the poster used it to grab attention, maybe to get a few clicks on his web site, and it works.

The kids innocently go out and have fun. For many, many parents it soon becomes all about what team they make, yes at 8 years old, and what team someone else made. Is my kid keeping up, or falling behind? Oh he loves it so I get him on the ice every chance I get. Yes, he loves it, but to be so naive to say that the parents are doing it because he loves it is ignorant. For most, yes MOST, parents, it becomes about how far can my kid get. They may not dream of Division 1 or the NHL, but to some degree it hits almost everyone. Will he make the "A" team? Is he good enough to make the Blades? The Machine? Will he play Varsity one day? At an early age it becomes all about these things and whether it's a topic of conversation at your dinner table or on the ride home, or you simply grind away keeping it to youself, either way, your kid will begin to know what it's really all about as he grows and matures.

I changed my mind on the gymnast. She's a perfect example for this thread. No one has probably thrown the word "elite" at her or her parents. She is not very talented. Sometimes the kids that enjoy their "career" the most are the ones with no talent or very little. Her parents are probably not bickering over what the meaning of "elite" is. Their daughter probably does not feel she has disappointed everyone who cares about her when she receives a low score. Kids want 1 thing at young ages. They want their parents to love them and be proud. The current infatuation with "elite" players as young as mites, makes that very, very hard.

LET'S BE HONEST! For many, many parents, it becomes all about keeping up, and saving face, to one degree or another. There is a time and place for this, but 2000 born, 11 year old kids is not the time, and most won't last with passion to when it does matter. Disappointed dad shrinks into the corner of the rink, and his son doesn't have much to say to him anymore. He's with his friends most of the time. Now that he's older, when weight training would be most beneficial, he's just not that interested. Summer comes and he's got other plans than to stay on the treadmill. How do you keep this from happening? Yes, you actually tell him no, when he wants to play on two "AAA teams", among other things. I believe you can't give a kid passion, but you can easily take it away without knowing that you are.

You suggest, at my urging, that it's probably just me that feels burned out after a long, grinding season and I need some time away. What it really means to me is that at my age, I'm able to recognize it. An 8 year old is not, an 11 year old is getting closer, a 14 year old will let you know with a bad attitude, and a 16 year old will let you know by not playing any longer. The shameful part is that the parents, that should recognize this, simply take advantage of it for their own benefit.

Check out the chatter, which Bo is typically very involved in, on other threads that are referring to '03 teams, and tell me I'm wrong. It's not the kids vying for blog superiority is it?

Yes, you made practice/training sound like a negative thing.... Those terrible coaches and coffee drinking parents with the whips.

What makes you think that you're such an expert with this? Did you burn your kids out?

Did you read an author's opinionated book on the subject? Book smart, no common sense.......?

What is your perfect balance, exactly? Example: One Summer team good. Three Summer teams bad. Let's hear something from you besides the generalizing(hypothetical) garbage.

Are you coming out with a book on a '150hr a year rule to be an average Joe'?

Take your head out of the sand.

[This is nuts!]

I did somewhat agree with you but I ll say this. How twisted am I? Really! I m not making him play, could care less if he does or not. You have no right telling me that I m affecting my family life, dinners, other activitys to accomodate a 3 on 3 league. This league is 12 hrs of hockey over a 60 day period. Big sacrafice.

By the way we eat as a family every night at about 4:30 if you ever want to join us and discuss what is good for my family.

By the way my son's homework that he apparantly wont be able to do is not a factor. His MAP scores are as high as his teacher has seen. If you are an educator you know what that means. I m extremly proud of how he performs in school.

I love the way ppl can know everything about you and your family without even meeting them..

First of all, 4:30 is obviously way too early to eat dinner. Optimal dinner time is between 6-6:30.

Secondly, if you are looking to help your kid succeed scholastically you need to get him/her enrolled in some top-notch enrichment programs before it's too late. Saturday enrichment programs are kind of like breakfast clubs for brainy kids. Evaluations (think tryouts) are coming up soon. I'll post later which kids make it into the top tier group if people are interested.

[jpiehl]

Maybe not quite that simple.....but great advice. Paying attention to their attitude, particularly to their attitude at home with their family is a great way to check in. Kids often have a blast when they are playing with their friends, but then are crabby at home.

Saying no, may not be what you think. How twisted are you allowing your family life to be to accomodate another fall 3 on 3 league? What affect is it having on school work, family dinners, other activites to the exclusivity of hockey, or piano playing for that matter. I will say it again. Does this apply to everyone? Nope. Does it apply way more than people are willing to admit? Yup.

So my oldest kid, an average to slightly above average player, gets crabby at home when he isn't on the ice for about two weeks. Then, when he goes to the rink, is a whole new kid when he gets home. So by that advice I should be making him play more?

I guess if sarcasm is what you are after, I can play that too. I made a simple, very uncomplicated statement. When you use the phrase "making him play more" you hit the nail on the head. Make him do whatever YOU think he should do, and reap the rewards. If I assume your oldest kid is older than 13 or so he may be telling YOU where to go and what you can do with it pretty soon, if not already. Freedom to make their own decisions within certain boundaries is very healthy. Yah, Yah, I know. The kid wants to play all the time, so I let him. No problem, I will say it again, it's when the parent falls in love with, and takes responsibility for the kids dreams that the problems begin. Yah, Yah I know. I'm not like that. Virtually all parents, do this to one degree or another. It's the degree that matters. Do you feel no anxiety whatsoever while waiting for tryout results? Be honest (again, not directed at you personally, but making a general statement. I don't mean for anyone else to pop a bolt)

Wow, talk about losing it after misinterpreting a post. He is older than 13, but still needs some direction and guidance. I ask him before signing him up for anything, he usually says he doesn't want to do it, then when the time comes he wishes he would have. He doesn't want to play all the time, anything over about 3-4 times a week gets to be too much for him. I don't have unfulfilled dreams of my own, I never played youth or high school hockey because it wasn't available where I grew up. I certainly don't need my kids to play. I don't care what letter they have by their team as long as it matches their ability at the time, so there may be a little anxiety waiting for tryout results, but it is more hoping they are on the same team as their friends, not the letter associated with that team.

You are beginning to lose a bit of credibility with me with your personal attacks on some posters, veiled with the 'it's not directed at you, just making a general statement' disclaimer when responding directly to people. My point is that there isn't a single way of doing it, I have two boys that play on the driveway almost every day, and others who don't play as much. They do it because it is fun for them. One of them is asking when his next hockey game is, his summer team is in break until mid July and he wants to skate. Two of them play for teams in the summer, two do not. Next summer may very well be different. So I do take a little offense to your veiled comment that I am pushing too hard when you state 'he may be telling YOU where to go and what you can do with it pretty soon, if not already'. He, along with his three brothers, has had a say in what and how much to do in the offseason ever since the year between mites and squirts. Maybe even a year before that, though at that age it was limited to spring hockey with friends and maybe a clinic over summer. There are days I think I need to push the oldest more, because he is a crab if he doesn't skate for a couple of weeks. I'm sure you will dismiss this as lies, though, because you seem to have an agenda that every hockey parent is pushing their kid too hard and is living vicariously through their accomplishments.

[Trash Hauler]

You make practice/training sound like a terrible thing. Some kids actually have fun at practice.

I'm all about options for kids from third world associations. Not sure why a kid from a mega association would need tier 1..

No, practice is not a bad thing. The title of this tread is "Is your son and elite player?" As always, the poster used it to grab attention, maybe to get a few clicks on his web site, and it works.

The kids innocently go out and have fun. For many, many parents it soon becomes all about what team they make, yes at 8 years old, and what team someone else made. Is my kid keeping up, or falling behind? Oh he loves it so I get him on the ice every chance I get. Yes, he loves it, but to be so naive to say that the parents are doing it because he loves it is ignorant. For most, yes MOST, parents, it becomes about how far can my kid get. They may not dream of Division 1 or the NHL, but to some degree it hits almost everyone. Will he make the "A" team? Is he good enough to make the Blades? The Machine? Will he play Varsity one day? At an early age it becomes all about these things and whether it's a topic of conversation at your dinner table or on the ride home, or you simply grind away keeping it to youself, either way, your kid will begin to know what it's really all about as he grows and matures.

I changed my mind on the gymnast. She's a perfect example for this thread. No one has probably thrown the word "elite" at her or her parents. She is not very talented. Sometimes the kids that enjoy their "career" the most are the ones with no talent or very little. Her parents are probably not bickering over what the meaning of "elite" is. Their daughter probably does not feel she has disappointed everyone who cares about her when she receives a low score. Kids want 1 thing at young ages. They want their parents to love them and be proud. The current infatuation with "elite" players as young as mites, makes that very, very hard.

LET'S BE HONEST! For many, many parents, it becomes all about keeping up, and saving face, to one degree or another. There is a time and place for this, but 2000 born, 11 year old kids is not the time, and most won't last with passion to when it does matter. Disappointed dad shrinks into the corner of the rink, and his son doesn't have much to say to him anymore. He's with his friends most of the time. Now that he's older, when weight training would be most beneficial, he's just not that interested. Summer comes and he's got other plans than to stay on the treadmill. How do you keep this from happening? Yes, you actually tell him no, when he wants to play on two "AAA teams", among other things. I believe you can't give a kid passion, but you can easily take it away without knowing that you are.

You suggest, at my urging, that it's probably just me that feels burned out after a long, grinding season and I need some time away. What it really means to me is that at my age, I'm able to recognize it. An 8 year old is not, an 11 year old is getting closer, a 14 year old will let you know with a bad attitude, and a 16 year old will let you know by not playing any longer. The shameful part is that the parents, that should recognize this, simply take advantage of it for their own benefit.

Check out the chatter, which Bo is typically very involved in, on other threads that are referring to '03 teams, and tell me I'm wrong. It's not the kids vying for blog superiority is it?

Yes, you made practice/training sound like a negative thing.... Those terrible coaches and coffee drinking parents with the whips.

What makes you think that you're such an expert with this? Did you burn your kids out?

Did you read an author's opinionated book on the subject? Book smart, no common sense.......?

What is your perfect balance, exactly? Example: One Summer team good. Three Summer teams bad. Let's hear something from you besides the generalizing(hypothetical) garbage.

Are you coming out with a book on a '150hr a year rule to be an average Joe'?

Take your head out of the sand.

Education, experience, observation, and listening to kids makes me have strong opinions on the subject. Call me an expert if you like, the title feels kind of catchy. No, I did not burn my kids out although I guess I still could. One is a Division 1 athlete. Another, the most athletically talented, chooses to spend most free time doing homework. The other 2 are still a work in process. Each is very different from the others.

There is no perfect balance. It varies for each kid. The key is to attempt to achieve the right balance for each kid. Many parents ignore the possibility, and therefore ignore the signs.

Yes, I hope to publish my book soon but no, that won't be the title or the topic.

Believe it or not, this topic is what I spent a major portion of my adult life researching, observing, testing and putting into practice. I'm happy to have found something that I'm passionate about. Head in the sand? I think not. I don't have all the answers, but I have spent a great amount of my life paying special close attention to it.

[Trash Hauler]

So my oldest kid, an average to slightly above average player, gets crabby at home when he isn't on the ice for about two weeks. Then, when he goes to the rink, is a whole new kid when he gets home. So by that advice I should be making him play more?

I guess if sarcasm is what you are after, I can play that too. I made a simple, very uncomplicated statement. When you use the phrase "making him play more" you hit the nail on the head. Make him do whatever YOU think he should do, and reap the rewards. If I assume your oldest kid is older than 13 or so he may be telling YOU where to go and what you can do with it pretty soon, if not already. Freedom to make their own decisions within certain boundaries is very healthy. Yah, Yah, I know. The kid wants to play all the time, so I let him. No problem, I will say it again, it's when the parent falls in love with, and takes responsibility for the kids dreams that the problems begin. Yah, Yah I know. I'm not like that. Virtually all parents, do this to one degree or another. It's the degree that matters. Do you feel no anxiety whatsoever while waiting for tryout results? Be honest (again, not directed at you personally, but making a general statement. I don't mean for anyone else to pop a bolt)

Wow, talk about losing it after misinterpreting a post. He is older than 13, but still needs some direction and guidance. I ask him before signing him up for anything, he usually says he doesn't want to do it, then when the time comes he wishes he would have. He doesn't want to play all the time, anything over about 3-4 times a week gets to be too much for him. I don't have unfulfilled dreams of my own, I never played youth or high school hockey because it wasn't available where I grew up. I certainly don't need my kids to play. I don't care what letter they have by their team as long as it matches their ability at the time, so there may be a little anxiety waiting for tryout results, but it is more hoping they are on the same team as their friends, not the letter associated with that team.

You are beginning to lose a bit of credibility with me with your personal attacks on some posters, veiled with the 'it's not directed at you, just making a general statement' disclaimer when responding directly to people. My point is that there isn't a single way of doing it, I have two boys that play on the driveway almost every day, and others who don't play as much. They do it because it is fun for them. One of them is asking when his next hockey game is, his summer team is in break until mid July and he wants to skate. Two of them play for teams in the summer, two do not. Next summer may very well be different. So I do take a little offense to your veiled comment that I am pushing too hard when you state 'he may be telling YOU where to go and what you can do with it pretty soon, if not already'. He, along with his three brothers, has had a say in what and how much to do in the offseason ever since the year between mites and squirts. Maybe even a year before that, though at that age it was limited to spring hockey with friends and maybe a clinic over summer. There are days I think I need to push the oldest more, because he is a crab if he doesn't skate for a couple of weeks. I'm sure you will dismiss this as lies, though, because you seem to have an agenda that every hockey parent is pushing their kid too hard and is living vicariously through their accomplishments.

Again, I will attempt to change my phrasing so my posts are not taken as personal attacks. They are intended to bring up points in general. I, of course have no direct knowledge of your children, your parenting style or your situation. When I respond to your posts, I use the term you to reply. I do hate the phrase "you people" but maybe that would make it more clear and less offensive. Sorry if you don't believe me, but I'll keep working on it.

[MrBoDangles]

No, practice is not a bad thing. The title of this tread is "Is your son and elite player?" As always, the poster used it to grab attention, maybe to get a few clicks on his web site, and it works.

The kids innocently go out and have fun. For many, many parents it soon becomes all about what team they make, yes at 8 years old, and what team someone else made. Is my kid keeping up, or falling behind? Oh he loves it so I get him on the ice every chance I get. Yes, he loves it, but to be so naive to say that the parents are doing it because he loves it is ignorant. For most, yes MOST, parents, it becomes about how far can my kid get. They may not dream of Division 1 or the NHL, but to some degree it hits almost everyone. Will he make the "A" team? Is he good enough to make the Blades? The Machine? Will he play Varsity one day? At an early age it becomes all about these things and whether it's a topic of conversation at your dinner table or on the ride home, or you simply grind away keeping it to youself, either way, your kid will begin to know what it's really all about as he grows and matures.

I changed my mind on the gymnast. She's a perfect example for this thread. No one has probably thrown the word "elite" at her or her parents. She is not very talented. Sometimes the kids that enjoy their "career" the most are the ones with no talent or very little. Her parents are probably not bickering over what the meaning of "elite" is. Their daughter probably does not feel she has disappointed everyone who cares about her when she receives a low score. Kids want 1 thing at young ages. They want their parents to love them and be proud. The current infatuation with "elite" players as young as mites, makes that very, very hard.

LET'S BE HONEST! For many, many parents, it becomes all about keeping up, and saving face, to one degree or another. There is a time and place for this, but 2000 born, 11 year old kids is not the time, and most won't last with passion to when it does matter. Disappointed dad shrinks into the corner of the rink, and his son doesn't have much to say to him anymore. He's with his friends most of the time. Now that he's older, when weight training would be most beneficial, he's just not that interested. Summer comes and he's got other plans than to stay on the treadmill. How do you keep this from happening? Yes, you actually tell him no, when he wants to play on two "AAA teams", among other things. I believe you can't give a kid passion, but you can easily take it away without knowing that you are.

You suggest, at my urging, that it's probably just me that feels burned out after a long, grinding season and I need some time away. What it really means to me is that at my age, I'm able to recognize it. An 8 year old is not, an 11 year old is getting closer, a 14 year old will let you know with a bad attitude, and a 16 year old will let you know by not playing any longer. The shameful part is that the parents, that should recognize this, simply take advantage of it for their own benefit.

Check out the chatter, which Bo is typically very involved in, on other threads that are referring to '03 teams, and tell me I'm wrong. It's not the kids vying for blog superiority is it?

Yes, you made practice/training sound like a negative thing.... Those terrible coaches and coffee drinking parents with the whips.

What makes you think that you're such an expert with this? Did you burn your kids out?

Did you read an author's opinionated book on the subject? Book smart, no common sense.......?

What is your perfect balance, exactly? Example: One Summer team good. Three Summer teams bad. Let's hear something from you besides the generalizing(hypothetical) garbage.

Are you coming out with a book on a '150hr a year rule to be an average Joe'?

Take your head out of the sand.

Education, experience, observation, and listening to kids makes me have strong opinions on the subject. Call me an expert if you like, the title feels kind of catchy. No, I did not burn my kids out although I guess I still could. One is a Division 1 athlete. Another, the most athletically talented, chooses to spend most free time doing homework. The other 2 are still a work in process. Each is very different from the others.

There is no perfect balance. It varies for each kid. The key is to attempt to achieve the right balance for each kid. Many parents ignore the possibility, and therefore ignore the signs.

Yes, I hope to publish my book soon but no, that won't be the title or the topic.

Believe it or not, this topic is what I spent a major portion of my adult life researching, observing, testing and putting into practice. I'm happy to have found something that I'm passionate about. Head in the sand? I think not. I don't have all the answers, but I have spent a great amount of my life paying special close attention to it.

"There is no perfect balance" That's what we're trying to tell you........ ALL KIDS ARE DIFFERENT!!! Quite telling people they're doing it all wrong when you have no clue of their situation.

I bet you'll read your own book over, and over.

[barry_mcconnell]

What is the opposite of an "elite player"? My little dude was offsides like a million times last season. He really needs to stop attempting one-timers. Or as we call them in our house, "none-timers". Loves his hockey though. Sleeps in his elbow pads on game nights.

[This is nuts!]

Trash, I do respect your opinion, but I ll say this, you seem to blame or assume its the parents fault when a teenager expresses his feelings of giving up the game. Fact of the matter is there are two sides to every story and unless you listen to what the parent has to say you are basing your opinion without getting two sides of the story. A teenager going through adolesence can have emotions that are out of control and can be dealing with many things that he may not want to tell you. Which could be the cause of him quitting and not Dad who only tried to provide everything he could to Johnny, at the time that Johnny wanted it. There are many many factors here. Not just the parents!

It s obvious you believe there are many more fanatical parents pushing their agendas on kids then I do or others on this board do. I think you may be confusing parents who are encouraging their kids and providing opportunities for them for parents who are pushing and forcing their kids to play.

Maybe these kids would have quit anyway regardless of what mom and dad did. How do you account for that.

My Johnny will be lucky to 5' 8". I understand he wont going anywhere in the game. If this is best its going to be for him now. Let him enjoy his success. Let him enjoy the experiences, because the success may not be their later. If he quits later cuz he cant compete, I would strongly argue its not my fault other the genes I passed on.

I ll end with this. Kids learn much more from their failures then from their successes. It teaches them resilience, its a good quality to move forward in life with.

And for the record I learned much more about life playing hockey then I ever did with opening a history book in school. Dont take that the wrong way! I hope you see my point.

[MrBoDangles]

Trash, I do respect your opinion, but I ll say this, you seem to blame or assume its the parents fault when a teenager expresses his feelings of giving up the game. Fact of the matter is there are two sides to every story and unless you listen to what the parent has to say you are basing your opinion without getting two sides of the story. A teenager going through adolesence can have emotions that are out of control and can be dealing with many things that he may not want to tell you. Which could be the cause of him quitting and not Dad who only tried to provide everything he could to Johnny, at the time that Johnny wanted it. There are many many factors here. Not just the parents!

It s obvious you believe there are many more fanatical parents pushing their agendas on kids then I do or others on this board do. I think you may be confusing parents who are encouraging their kids and providing opportunities for them for parents who are pushing and forcing their kids to play.

Maybe these kids would have quit anyway regardless of what mom and dad did. How do you account for that.

My Johnny will be lucky to 5' 8". I understand he wont going anywhere in the game. If this is best its going to be for him now. Let him enjoy his success. Let him enjoy the experiences, because the success may not be their later. If he quits later cuz he cant compete, I would strongly argue its not my fault other the genes I passed on.

I ll end with this. Kids learn much more from their failures then from their successes. It teaches them resilience, its a good quality to move forward in life with.

And for the record I learned much more about life playing hockey then I ever did with opening a history book in school. Dont take that the wrong way! I hope you see my point.

It should be easy for someone to see your point.

Great Post!

[old goalie85]

The kids all change. My oldest 94, 5 kids were the same from squirt A to Bantam A, Varsity down to 2. He liked to skate as much as possible. I have five that play hockey and didn't have or want to spent that kind of $$[on summer hockey w/him.. My 98 goes if hockey is on the schedule but likes football/golf more. My daughter U12 just makes sure if the boys get to she gets to. my01 is a goer shoots pucks @ home every night before baseball/skating. My 02 hated hockey now he's a goalie I expect he will quit in the next couple of years. My point these kids are from the same womb[sp] think about how different my kids are/Bo's/Trashes ect.ect. No right or wrong answer here folks. Just enjoy because before you know it will be over.

[SnowedIn]

"There is no perfect balance" That's what we're trying to tell you........ ALL KIDS ARE DIFFERENT!!! Quite telling people they're doing it all wrong when you have no clue of their situation.

I bet you'll read your own book over, and over.

Bo, how would you know all kids are different? Aren't they different but really the same? We know the parents are the same and all have the same agenda if their kids play a sport more than the average kid and the parents encourage and support them to be the best they can be. And we also know that most parents have no clue how to help their kids deal with adversity and failure so that if the inevitable shoe drops, and they don't get that $5M contract 10 years from now, they will be crushed and hate the parents forever. We know that this is a vicious cycle, that everyone whose kid seems to like to play the sport and likes practices and getting better, and not just play fun games, is subject to. Its a box that fits most of us. Stop rocking the boat! It's how it is and that's final!!

[Trash Hauler]

"There is no perfect balance" That's what we're trying to tell you........ ALL KIDS ARE DIFFERENT!!! Quite telling people they're doing it all wrong when you have no clue of their situation.

I bet you'll read your own book over, and over.

Bo, how would you know all kids are different? Aren't they different but really the same? We know the parents are the same and all have the same agenda if their kids play a sport more than the average kid and the parents encourage and support them to be the best they can be. And we also know that most parents have no clue how to help their kids deal with adversity and failure so that if the inevitable shoe drops, and they don't get that $5M contract 10 years from now, they will be crushed and hate the parents forever. We know that this is a vicious cycle, that everyone whose kid seems to like to play the sport and likes practices and getting better, and not just play fun games, is subject to. Its a box that fits most of us. Stop rocking the boat! It's how it is and that's final!!

As with most good discussions on this board, the value ends when a nerve is struck, and the sarcasm starts. Who is it that you are trying to defend with your posts? If it doesn't happen and these situtaions don't exist, why the sarcastic rebuttal?