redistricting

joshdog · Post by **joshdog** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:48 pm

Real nice SE MN district: start at Northfield, go East to Red Wing, South to Rochester, I-90 West to Albert Lea then back North on I-35 to Faribault. Don't let the Roch. people fool you, this would be very competitive.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:12 pm

Reference SE MN District And there always has to be a best team and a worst team within each district. The haves and the have-nots. And a Bantam A team can scrimmage (non-league games) anyone that they can get on the schedule. And, if memory serves me, there are at least a couple of tournaments during the winter months. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... liott70</A> at: 2/16/06 9:56 pm

puckboy · Post by **puckboy** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:35 pm

As for there has to be a best and worst in east district- I totally agree but having one association with 150 kids trying out going against an association with 30-40 doesnt seem real fair or typically do either association any good.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:07 pm

I agree with Joshdog, hockey is growing in the South Central and Soutwest part of the state. Take Rochester out of 8 and try to get them to have at least 2 associations (like every other town). Then split the southern 1/3 of the state at I-35 into 2 districts. There are a sufficiant number of teams I think. I don't know what kind of pull MAHA has over individual associations, but Rochester seems to run differently than everyone else, i.e. 1 association for 3 schools. Taking them out of 8 will cause an uproar in that particular group, but would probably be beneficial for the rest of southern Minnesota hockey to have them. Don't let MAHA cave in!!!

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:13 pm

I think I have to buy a big map of Minnesota and one of the metro area tomorrow. And about 12, no 24 colored pins. Set it up, put in the associations as is and then start rearranging them. Wait, maybe a couple of maps, maybe three. But I need descriptions of EACH association. Like, one bantam B team or 100 bantam players on average. Feeds such and such high school(s). #'s are growing or declining. etc.... Big job, but I should be able to find some hlep somewhere.

Pregameskate · Post by **Pregameskate** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:28 pm

I disagree that you should split an association because they have over 100 kids trying out. The problem begins well before the bantam and peewee level. It begins at the Mite and Squirt level. If the given association is doing the right things with those kids at the young ages it will reflect on the quality of teams at the older level...For instance the Duluth East program. last year the DE Bantams had 40 skaters tryout for their A team and 68 kids tryout for their peewee team. that is about average every year. Yet the program is pretty competive year in and year out. Much like Rochester the program also feeds multiple high school programs (DE & DMarshall). Hibbing another example, year in and year out they have very competive bantam and peewee teams, and they don't have the same numbers as a White Bear Lake, but the program begins spending the right amount of time working with the kids at the young levels. Of course the best example is Roseau. They don't have hundreds of kids trying out for their traveling teams every year, but they are always one of the teams to watch come the end of the year. Why because there is attention paid to the quality of ice the kids get from the time they are 5 years old on. I won't pretend to understand the dynamics of the metro districts, I don't have the knowledge to tell you what benefit redistricting would have. I agree that obviously if you have more numbers than of course the odds would say you could potentially have a better chance at fielding a strong team. I also agree with a previous poster that said the association deep in the metro are landlocked creating an added problem. But I firmly believe if an association recognizes that the most important factor in having a quality peewee and bantam program lies in the mites and squirts. You have to find quality coaches that are willing to be dedicated to teaching and reinforcing basic skills...Not working on breakouts and forechecks. I don't pretend to have all the answers, only suggestions.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:41 pm

At least at this time (and I would hope never) MN Hockey is not going to force associations to break-up (just becasue of numbers, other overriding factors would have to come into play). The Director has the right to determine what classification a particular team plays at... say Moorhead has an A and 3 B's. The best B team may be reclassified to an A. Redistricting / restructuring is not predominatly about making individual assoications better and developing players. More to control administrative duties, bring competition together with a mind to geographics, and to come up with creative ideas to make the experience better. Define better? More fun, more competitive, better develpment, yes all those things.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:46 pm

So with what pregame has said in mind... maybe MN Hockey needs to run early season mite camps for the players and the coaches. With a CEP program designed and written by MN coaches from across the state. When I left Bemidji youth hockey for hte district post, I was asked what they needed to do to maintain a strong program. Two of the points made were recruit young kids to the game and hire another (the two that had been doing it were gone) person(s) to teach the coaches how to teach skating and to clinic the kids in skating. I agree with Pregame in that regard.

Pregameskate · Post by **Pregameskate** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:04 am

Elliot, Does the redistricting have to effect all levels of play? I'm asking because you take D11 for example at the the Bantam A level, you have four teams competing for a district title, and two of them get to move on to the region tournament. On the other hand you have D10 that has like 16 or so teams at the bantam a level (not sure on that number) and only 8 of them are allowed into the district tournament. That doesn't seem really fair. Is it possible to redistrict for different levels, or does it have to be if an association is in a district every team in that association has to be?

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:07 am

Pregameskate, no district is like Rochester; Duluth East may feed East and Marshall, but that is just like most metro districts as they lose kids to Holy Angels, Hill-Murray, St. Thomas, et. al. Rochester uses 1 district team to feed 3 public and 1 private school. (ok 2 this year at bantams, but that was a fight, many only wanted 1 team) The problem is they use 1-2 teams to field 3 public schools + a private school while associations like Apple Valley use 2 (AV and Eastview) then pull this Holier than thou crap as to why they should be in a metro distict instead of in a district with the rest of SE Minnesota. Should MAHA tell the RYHA what to do? No, but they also shoudn't bow to their wishes because they're a very large association. Though probably smaller than Jefferson/Kennedy or AV/EV combined.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:36 am

Find a way to keep costs down, recruit more at the lower levels. Find more ways to teach the skills while having more interesting practices. The most important thing to remember is that all of these players are children. Since a number of outdoor rinks dissappeared maybe set aside 3 hours each sunday afternoon or saturday afternoon for rink rats only, no adults on the ice and only spongies or tennis balls (no hard pucks) and let the kids play,they chose the sides and the rules, no adult orginazation for just a short time frame. If parents chose to watch from the stands they must keep quiet. Lets identify the problems. How will moving associations solve the problem? Can the problem be solved another way? What new problems are now being created by moving associations from existing Districts? Sometimes a minor repair is needed rather than a major operation. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... beard58</A> at: 2/17/06 8:31 am

puckboy · Post by **puckboy** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:44 am

greybeard: I agree with your last post. I believe before we try to solve the problem - first we need to identify what the problem really is. I believe you hit on a few of them that deal with overall MN hockey issues like cost , grow the numbers and keep it fun. But I don't believe redistricting will solve those issues. I feel the biggest reason for redistriciting in the metro is most districts have one or 2 teams that totally DOMINATE the other teams in their district which is leading to many districts looking at forming some type of merger just so they can compete. It is mainly a numbers reason, I'm aware of the Northern teams success with small numbers but in the metro we are limited on ice resources. As for outstate the main thing I hear is travel. Let identfy reasons for redistricting so we can make intelligent choices to solve the problem.

JOHNSONPREZ · Post by **JOHNSONPREZ** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:06 am

My opinion is that the big associations such as Whit Bear, Eden Prairie and the such are saying they want more of there teams in the state tourneys and get rid of say the TC district in order to do that. Granted the TC district does have trouble in the regionals but for years the southern districts have had the same problem. Some districts are always going to have a number of strong teams and feel that they are getting slighted. We have the same thing in High School and look how they have ruined that with 2 classes. Either way I wish it would be decided because we here in the TC district are tired of looking over our shoulders every day. I have been here at Johnson for 34 years and in our earlier years we would dominate the Rosville's, White Bears and the such and at that time we did not start asking to change things just so the big city asssociations at the time got more spots. Things change and I think White Bear is starting to see the numbers may be sliding a little bit at a time and when people start moving out of the cities further numbers will continue to decline. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... SONPREZ</A> at: 2/17/06 10:12 am

puckboy · Post by **puckboy** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:20 am

I believe the TC district is a model that should be EXPANDED in the metro. Possibly have a TC East and TC west. In the West you could have- Cooper, Tri-City, SLP, Osseo, Buffalo, Brooklyn Park, Richfield, St Micheal. That is just a few that come to mind.

Blade Side Down · Post by **Blade Side Down** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:28 am

Slapshot 69 idea is valid. St. Cloud is a sticking point for the Central MN District. How about taking St. Joe and Waite Park along with there townships to form a association under the MASTER associations. Mr. Elloit, How about using the Elementary Attendance or Secondary Attendance Area Boundries for school enrollment as the guiding factor? This also tallies for the school there High School enrollment. <a href="http://isd742.org/elemboundarymap.pdf"> ...  <a href="http://isd742.org/secondaryboundarymap. ...  <a href="http://www.whitebear.k12.mn.us/schools/ ...  Wow, there close in perspective. 8 Elementary schools St.Cloud / 9 Elementary schools White 2 Secondary schools St.Cloud / 2 Secondary schools White 3 High Schools St.Cloud / 3 High Schools White St. Cloud is from Avon to otherside of Clearwater on I-94. 18 comunities for one association? Keep the master association to run the program with sub-association runnig the children. They are probly both paid boards, so nobody would be out anything. A Minny MAHA. Trying to be funny<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:07 am

Wow, lots of questions and good comments. First, in a post or two above I tried to provide teh reason for redistricting. But, we are NOT redistricting. We want to restructure. Which may mean redistricting in part. But the idea of Duluth playing in D11 for peewees and a mixed D11 & IR for Bantams is a possibiltiy in restructuring. Redistricting may be for administrative purposes only and restructuirng of how things are done for league games, invitationals, and playoffs could be something completely different. We do not want to throw the baby out with the bath water, but we may not want to keep the bath tub.

gferhock1 · Post by **gferhock1** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:16 am

The idea of breaking apart st cloud in my opinion isnt a good idea. First off they chose to stay in d10 because the competition is much better than the options available. When they can play centenial, blaine, anoka, coon rapids, champlin, elk river vs the smaller associations I think its in their interests to stay. If you break them up into the 3 high schools in town, I dont think the kids will progress like it appears on paper. This year they have 2 bantam A teams and for the most part its a disaster. Yes we can argue about how and why it was done, but when you have 20 kids who can play A hockey and now pull up 14 more who cant then it causes problems. I dont want to debate this issue, its been beat up all fall when it happened. Good b1 hockey is still going to develop those players who move on to high school hockey. If they have a better than average team its up to the coaches to get into better tournaments. Many players develop skills in the summer, sorry to say it but summer hockey is as important as winter for those that live and breath it.

SLP Coach · Post by **SLP Coach** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:18 am

Expanding on the TC District West/East Idea. Some people complain that the TC "takes" Regional seeds from the "other" Districts. By incorporating more teams into the TC District, this means that even though the TC will still get into regions (as they should) the compitition will be higher as there are more teams fighting for the 2 or 3 TC-Dist seeds. Here is how I see the TC Dist breaking down. TC-West Washburn Southwest Richfield Tri-City St. Louis Park Cooper Armstrong Brooklyn Park TC-East Johnson Como Highland Irondale Tartan Sibley (WSP) N. St. Paul S. St. Paul or Inver Grove Heights or Woodbury or Eagan or Moundsview Like I said before, play each team in your section twice and each in the other section once. This would give each team 22 district games. Although I still really like the Combo-A-Level teams and split the B-Level teams into West/East Sections. A Good point was made earlier, you could not force Associations to combine to form a team and you also could not force Associations to form 2 A-Level teams either.

puckboy · Post by **puckboy** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:38 am

SLPCOACH- nice list of teams for the districts. You also need to add St Michael and Osseo to the list.

hockeymom69 · Post by **hockeymom69** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:47 am

SW/SLP Coach - I like the 494/694 loop idea BOTTOM LINE FOR ANY DISTRICT it isn't about competition. All programs are going to have ups and downs. All Districts have to have Top and Bottom teams. Its about balance of #'s and distance to travel. St. Cloud plays Chisago Lakes - D10 thats a one hour drive. Who wants to sit in the car for over two hours on a weeknight for a league game?

Rinkrat95 · Post by **Rinkrat95** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:50 am

What is the REAL probablity that something will change before next year???????

East Hockey Puck · Post by **East Hockey Puck** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:55 am

I am more concerned about regional structures. I believe the region structure should be looked at more so than re doing all the districts. Duluth is in a very interesting position. Growing up and playing hockey in Duluth one away trip was more than sufficient prior to district, regional, and state playdowns. There was great competition and tremendous opportunity for anyone that wanted to play the game at any level. Today times have changed, the grest Lower Chester rink that produced as many if not more great players than any rink, played and won state championships, does not have enough players to have a squirt team! This is due mainly to demographics. That area was full of catholic families with many children in most households. The area today is full of college housing and families who might have 2 children instead of 6. The lack of participants requires Duluths top teams (whether East or Lakers) to travel extensively to play top competition.The second reason is expense which relates to dollars as well as not having enough numbers to run your own program (meaning city pee wee, bantam and midget leagues) which an area like Duluth could do in the 60's and 70's. We need to protect Nortrhern MN hockey! If Elk River were to win 7AA and a St. Cloud team were to win 8AA the most northern team in the State AA tourney would be from St. Cloud?? THAT WOULDNT BE RIGHT! Is MN Hockey heading in the same direction? I have heard rumblings that next year Duluths district will be in a regional with district 10 and 2 for state tourney births. WOW! Regional changes I believe need to be changed but maybe the allotment of state births could be looked at carefully vs significant geographic changes. Here would be my initail thought and would enjoy having Mr. Elliot address this: State tourney births 5 from the Maroon districts. Two form the Gold region and the last birth be given to what some people might refer to as a "back door game". This game would be between the district 4 & 5 champion and the third place team from the Gold regional. In recent years there have been situations where the 3rd team from the north could not compete on an even scale as the top teams from the Marron Region and I cant recall when the District 4 or 5 team won a game on the winners side of the State bracket. The positive for this scenerio would be:You more than likely would have the strongest teams from the north representing the north vs the possibility that a team like a Moorhead, Duluth East, Warroad, Roseau, etc... who in any given year might be thought of as the strongest team from the north be sent to a regional and be defeated by a Centennial or a White Bear Lake taking out maybe the strongest northern team and sending two potentially weaker team to the State Tournament I think MN Hockey better be very careful sending northern teams to the metro to play in a regional. Mr. Elliot a similar scenerio was in place maybe 10 years ago where Duluth teams had to play against District 2 teams for state. Why was it changed then and are the scenerios much differnt today? State Tourney would be: G-1 vs M-4 G-2 vs M-3 G-3 vs M-2 M-5 vs M-1 Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... @mnhs>East Hockey Puck</A> at: 2/17/06 11:58 am

SEMetro · Post by **SEMetro** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:23 pm

I don't have a clue about outstate. But in the metro, there are a handful of problem associations and everything could be fixed by requiring huge associations to field two A teams. It is insanity to expect an association that fields 3 PW teams to compete with an association that fields 9. EP decided as a town to have a mega-school - Edina has the resources to have a high % of kids afford hockey - same thing with White Bears ##'s -- doesn't mean that MAHA needs to have the same teams crush everyone they play year in year out. If a small association has 30% of their kids playing at the A level, what is the harm in having a large association play 15% of their kids at the A level? Who cares about what happens in high school - different beast. Force two A teams if ##'s hit a certain level - simple fix - doubt it will ever happen since the administrators of large associations love the banners.

puckboy · Post by **puckboy** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:27 pm

another idea for the metro. Create a district that includes the large associations. Edina EP Wayzata WBL Chaska Maple Grove ????

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:48 pm

Hockey mom 69 those games are usually scheduled on a weekend. Chisago has a choice to compete at the levels in their district,where as in District 2 they would be like Ironale was,and for St Cloud they do not complain about the travel.They have tried to do what is right for their association their bantam teams suffered this year but the pw level was sucesful.They were not forced by persons or orginazation out side to make their changes. Maybe people ought to start studying how some of the successful orginazations operate and try and copy good ideas,some might work.For an example Fridley,Colunmbia Heights were once very strong associations and because of population shifts their numbers have dwindled.Anoka in the early 80's once had the largest number of registared teams with USA Hockey in the entire USA. That association has now had 2 splits with in about 12 years. Sooner or later because of their size the larger schools will split and then programs will also be affected.By the way try to get from Spring Lake Park to St Louis Park on a Friday night around 6PM it isn't always distance.

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