Pond
I can answer one of your questions to Elliott. Mn Hockey keeped the age classifications cut off dates to further the community based hockey theory by keeping kids in the same grade at school at the same levels. If MN Hockey changed to the USA Hockey age classifications, last season you would have had a Decemer 1990 Freshman and January 1991 Freshman playing at different levels. The 1991 player would have been a Bantam, and the 1990 player would have to play High School.
MAHA Rule Changes
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
Age difference
I think it is good that MN goes by school year not calendar year. That way, some first and second quarter kids get to dominate at early ages in off-season AAA hockey (calendar year), but some third and fourth quarter kids get to dominate during the regular season (school year). Good to mix it up.
The "playing with your buddies" philosophy is somewhat irrelevant for many, with 4 skill levels (A, B1, B2, C), 2 year age groupings and some associations with 8-12 teams per age level. Unless you are in a small association, for most kids, you never know who you are going to play with year to year growing up.
The "playing with your buddies" philosophy is somewhat irrelevant for many, with 4 skill levels (A, B1, B2, C), 2 year age groupings and some associations with 8-12 teams per age level. Unless you are in a small association, for most kids, you never know who you are going to play with year to year growing up.
age levels
USA Hockey has and still does allow affiliates such as MINNKOTA to select their playing ages. It is NOT against the rules for MN Hockey (ND, Michigan or others) to have a different age level.
The advanced program is a USA hockey program that MN Hockey helps run. It is not a MN Hockey program.
The advanced program is a USA hockey program that MN Hockey helps run. It is not a MN Hockey program.
rec hockey
Some communities (associations) do run good rec programs. And MN Hockey has endorsed programs recently that are running new programs designed for recreational players.
Some communities do not have rec programs beyond a certain age becasue they do not have the numbers. Some programs do not play rec but do play C level becasue of numbers. But as is the case everywhere, the player and his parents dictate what they want even at the rec or C level. They want to compete so the associations then the districts say lets have a C level league or B2 league and they do.
There is no simple answer to these complicated questions but to say "Minnesota Hockey" (meaning the Board or a District Board or someone other than yourself) is solely responsible is not correct. We all have to be involved in one form or the other.
And this forum seems to help get people involved without a lot of effort by allowing people to express tehmselves, so therefore, I apologize about my bitter and unknowledgeable comment. Even though it did exactly what I wanted, that being a continued dialogue on these problems, questions.
Hopefully, we (all of us) find solutions for the kids involved. And continue to realize what might seem like a solution for kid #1 is not what is best for the program in general. Stating that, we must also try to find a proper solution for kid #1. And if a waiver for kid #1 helps kid #1 without hurting kids #2 to #20, then that is fine.
But I type too long since I have to leave and drive 4 hours one way to spend 12 hours trying to determine what is best for kids 1 to 20.
Keep the comments coming.
Some communities do not have rec programs beyond a certain age becasue they do not have the numbers. Some programs do not play rec but do play C level becasue of numbers. But as is the case everywhere, the player and his parents dictate what they want even at the rec or C level. They want to compete so the associations then the districts say lets have a C level league or B2 league and they do.
There is no simple answer to these complicated questions but to say "Minnesota Hockey" (meaning the Board or a District Board or someone other than yourself) is solely responsible is not correct. We all have to be involved in one form or the other.
And this forum seems to help get people involved without a lot of effort by allowing people to express tehmselves, so therefore, I apologize about my bitter and unknowledgeable comment. Even though it did exactly what I wanted, that being a continued dialogue on these problems, questions.
Hopefully, we (all of us) find solutions for the kids involved. And continue to realize what might seem like a solution for kid #1 is not what is best for the program in general. Stating that, we must also try to find a proper solution for kid #1. And if a waiver for kid #1 helps kid #1 without hurting kids #2 to #20, then that is fine.
But I type too long since I have to leave and drive 4 hours one way to spend 12 hours trying to determine what is best for kids 1 to 20.
Keep the comments coming.
Re: Age difference
Excellent post SEMetro, that is exactly what happens.SEMetro wrote:I think it is good that MN goes by school year not calendar year. That way, some first and second quarter kids get to dominate at early ages in off-season AAA hockey (calendar year), but some third and fourth quarter kids get to dominate during the regular season (school year). Good to mix it up.
-
Pucknutz69
- Posts: 861
- Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:09 pm
pond 15 wrote:So what question did you answer? I can give you another situation; MN HOCKEY has advance camps at the end of each year. In these camps you must compete at your YEAR class. Lets say this year 1991s you had 1st year bantams competing against 2nd year bantams. How many 1st year kids made it. Plus they say they would have to many players at the High School level with no place to put them. You mean to tell me that every kid that travels at like White Bear, Maple Grove makes their high school team after bantams. Please.
All I am saying is don't talk about rules. Until they will follow the rules.
When I bought my house it was not because of hockey. My kids do not will not every attend our hockey association feeder school, But we are forced to play youth for that association. They attend school in St. Paul he played with his school friends, but as a MITE they said we need a wavier.
7 years old, a mite! Over the years I have seen families move to different communities just for hockey reasons.
Nice point. Where are the benefits for the younger 91's? What is MN Hockey doing for thier "Advancement"?
SE Metro made a good point but there is no advancement opportunities for these kids until high school. In our district the guy making the selections only took players that were high school V or JV and 2nd year bantams.
Birthday
There is much to what Pucknutz says. The AAA and elite programs - all being geared to calendar year, give a number of kids an unfair advantage and weed out top level kids unfortunate enough to be born in the latter part of the year, especially Nov. or Dec. Getting identified early often equates to higher/better development programs - particularly top AAA teams in the metro.
The problem is somewhat lessened because MAHA at least has a school year system in youth ranks - but I agree with Pucknutz that attention should be paid to age distributions throughout the selection process for elite players.
For example, a study about Canada's calendar year system - from the web:
"Month of Birth and Elite Hockey
... The data indicate that the probability of success in high calibre hockey is dramatically reduced for those born at the end of the year. Furthermore, among National League Hockey Players who were active in the early 1980s, about 40% were born in the first quarter of the year, 30% in the second, 20% in the third, and less than 10% were born in the final quarter.
In terms of playing at a high level, boys born in the last part of the year have a much lower chance than those born at the beginning of the year."
I am sure that someone could easily pull the advanced 15/16 and national camp information for Minnesota girls and boys and see how bad we are missing out on developing our kids born at the end of the year.
The problem is somewhat lessened because MAHA at least has a school year system in youth ranks - but I agree with Pucknutz that attention should be paid to age distributions throughout the selection process for elite players.
For example, a study about Canada's calendar year system - from the web:
"Month of Birth and Elite Hockey
... The data indicate that the probability of success in high calibre hockey is dramatically reduced for those born at the end of the year. Furthermore, among National League Hockey Players who were active in the early 1980s, about 40% were born in the first quarter of the year, 30% in the second, 20% in the third, and less than 10% were born in the final quarter.
In terms of playing at a high level, boys born in the last part of the year have a much lower chance than those born at the beginning of the year."
I am sure that someone could easily pull the advanced 15/16 and national camp information for Minnesota girls and boys and see how bad we are missing out on developing our kids born at the end of the year.
-
Pucknutz69
- Posts: 861
- Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:09 pm
Development
Our bantam team will have a few that fit into this catagory. They will have good seasons but the 2nd year 92s will get more attention.
MN Hockey needs to look at starting a late year development camp without the national attention. Just hold something in state. I know we have the Classic Elite, Super Series and Midwest Selects tournaments but those are just pay to play, not really a development situation. The Selects is dominated by the older age players. Maybe run it at the same time as the others so the same resources can be used.
MN Hockey needs to look at starting a late year development camp without the national attention. Just hold something in state. I know we have the Classic Elite, Super Series and Midwest Selects tournaments but those are just pay to play, not really a development situation. The Selects is dominated by the older age players. Maybe run it at the same time as the others so the same resources can be used.
good points on select older/younger
I will see that it gets brought to the attention of Hockey Ops and perhaps somehting will be developed.