Benilde High School Coaching

[ghshockeyfan]

I would not expect to see a certain EP coach at BSM this year, I believe he is not interested in coaching in a controlled environment.
For that matter why would any good, experienced coach want that job?

If the parents/boosters have that much control that they can run out a honest, successful coach with a winning record that produces college players and good people, I find that very unfortunate and wrong!

After what was done to a great coach in this position, I wouldn't wish it on anyone without some discussion of what will be acceptible terms for employment and dismissal beyond what is in place currently. I've talked to a number of people about this opportunity, and stressed discussion of these "details" before considering taking any such position.

What's more, we need to start to consider what are grounds for removal, and what is wrongful termination, etc. Coaches put a heck of a lot into their coaching usually, and that should be rewarded with some sort of job security vs. just allowing them to be fired for no reason...

[hockeyxprt1]

Ha, ha. BSM loses a good (maybe great) coack in Jack and they hire Herbst from Cooper?????? Good luck to you BSM! You are going to need it.

[wings7811]

Your name implies that you're a "hockey expert" where your response shows your real knowledge. The players made the initial contact with the AD about a need for a coaching change at BSM. The parents, as they should, supported their kids 100%.

Jack is a good guy but unfortunately was not the right coach for BSM. Mr. Gravel will hopefully land another coaching opportunity to prove himself in a different environment.

Give Herbst a chance to succeed at BSM. From what I have heard he communicates very well with his players and enjoy playing for him.

Personally, from my understanding, it is difficult to coach in any hockey program, girls or boys, unless you win State. Even then, if you don't repeat people are disappointed.

[ghshockeyfan]

The players made the initial contact with the AD about a need for a coaching change at BSM.

How many players? Were there any other concerns that could have biased them besides "coaching" issues (playing time)? This is one of the first questions that every AD must ask themselves when approached I'm sure.

The parents, as they should, supported their kids 100%.

Parents should support their kids, I agree. Sometimes being supportive though is looking at the situation and helping kids understand the issue fully. If even then it is determined that a few kids are right, and coach must go, and that it's not a personal issue, then by all means use all possible options to what is best. I also believe it is usually best to go after a coach only when you can convince the majority to support such action - which is extremely rare.

Jack is a good guy but unfortunately was not the right coach for BSM. Mr. Gravel will hopefully land another coaching opportunity to prove himself in a different environment.

Jack is a good guy & has no need to "prove himself" elsewhere. BSM was lucky to have him.

80-20-5 isn't even the start of what he did there. The program during his time won a state championship (28-1-1 that year...), countless conf. titles (maybe never lost a conf. game?), had a top academic group (3.6 GPA or higher at all times?), produced a dozen or so college, and a handful of D1, players. They lost 4 games last year!

For most coaches that would be a great career - for Jack that was a few years!

Give Herbst a chance to succeed at BSM. From what I have heard he communicates very well with his players and enjoy playing for him.

Herbst is coming into a difficult situation, but as of now there is still much to work with at BSM. Give him a chance, but know that the circumstances are not ideal for even the best coach in the world to do well right away. Whatever happens, don't attack him too quickly knowing this... GIVE HIM A CHANCE!!!

Personally, from my understanding, it is difficult to coach in any hockey program, girls or boys, unless you win State. Even then, if you don't repeat people are disappointed.

Amen to this, and let me say that I've heard that sometimes even when you win it all you still are attacked, etc. immediately. You can't make all the people happy all the time. For this reason it doesn't surprise me that SOME weren't happy with Gravel, as I have yet to see any team where everyone is happy all the time with everything - especially coaching.

[hockeygod]

I think the people that don't get it are the coaches. They are there to teach the kids and for the most part the parents see coaches just picking out skills they want and plugging them in hole, we see practice as an endless cycle of the coach blowing the whistle and no teaching going on, we see the coaches on the bench not even talking to our daughters and we start to wonder where these guys came from. Coaches are the ones that get so wrapped up in winning that they lose sight of the teaching aspect of the sport. The teams that win year in and year out are the teams that have coaches that can comunicate to the players and are constantly teaching. The teams that have up and down years are the ones with coaches that depend on the talent that shows up and as Heb Brooks once said "you are not good enough to win on talent alone"

[ghshockeyfan]

Coaches that are there for themselves are not good - and I think they are few & far between and don't last long in this "profession." Success is all relative to what you interpret the definition to be. If it's all about winning, then I've never accomplished a darn thing. If it's about getting more out of athletics besides just championships, then I guess some coaches that have had some "ups & downs" still may be "successful" in some ways but maybe not year-after-year on the scoreboard. I think coaching is about creating winners in the classroom & the community, as well as on the playing field. There's another "East Side" quote that I'd like to share here relative to talent and winning, but I can't as it's too vulgar. The bottom line is that you have to have something to work with - or - you can't make something out of nothing. I still believe that the game of hockey is 90% heart and 10% skill (but you have to have some skill). Teams that want to win, believe they can, and will fight even when outgunned always have a chance. It's why we play the game on the ice and not on paper, by stats, or with computer rankings/simulations. Let's be honest, winning is typically a function of talent - but "success" as a coach sometimes doesn't depend on talent. Winning is also a function of Strength-of-Schedule, and a coach's ability to motivate their players to play (heart). If you have more motivated but less talented players than the opponent, you can still win. But, in my mind, you can be a successful coach regardless of your "career record." There's more to sports than championships... But it's nice to "win" too... I think that's the "icing on the cake" when you do the other things right as a coach...

[hockeygod]

your so right, winning is just a by product of a successful program, yet I see so much emphisis on it. We had a coach at the preseason team meeting stand up and say that he hates it when an 8th grader comes out for the team and can't do anything right, well to me the coach should love that, he should use that player to build with, if she dosn't make the team, he should make sure that she's in a program so she can make the team next year...Herb Brooks (who used to be my neighbor) would always talk about building the base of the pyramid, well the 8th graders that can't skate are the base of that pyramid and should be taught the right way to do things rather than just discarded.

[xk1]

I don't think a Varsity HS team is the place for 8th graders to be learning how to skate, that's what the youth program is for and that kind of 8th grader is better off on a U12B or U14B team. If on the other hand the 8th grader has basic skills and is capable of learning the skills the rest of the team is learning then she would be welcomed by any coach. Most coaches don't have the ice time nor coach time to devote to basic skating. GHS had an older girl that couldn't skate his last year at BK, she was too old for U14. Since he always has about 10 coaches he was able to devote a corner of the rink to teach this kid how to skate but that is the exception, not the rule. You simply can't have 30 players standing around watching someone learn basic skating, it isn't fair to the rest of the team. I don't believe the coach who said he hated it when 8th graders that "can't do anything" said it because he onlt cared about winning, he said it because the HS team isn't the best place to learn what she needs to to advance.

[hockeygod]

there is a place for 8th graders who can't skate, maybe it's not a high school team but i seen the girl that he was talking about get cut and she has no other options so she's not playing anywhere right now, who is the winner in this, not the girl because she's not expanding her horizons, not her high school team because they will be short of numbers...it's a big tent and theres room under it for everyone, not just the top of the pyramid. If the coach dosn't have time to find someone to work with her then he shouldn't be coaching kids. He made her feel like a loser and she wanted to try

[xk1]

So why isn't U12 or U14 an option?

[hockeygod]

because she goes to a private school 35 miles from her home, she is dropped off for school at 7 am and picked up at 5 pm, she is an a student and depends on after school activities to keep her busy until she can get picked up, her dad works 2 jobs to put her in that school and ther is no way he could get her to practice at another program.

[xk1]

Perhaps, when my daughter was that age almost all practices for youth hockey were later in the evening as younger kids need to get to bed earlier. I don't know where she lives so I can't comment on what her association does, but most associations in the metro operate later in the evening for U14. She doesn't live in WI does she?

[hockeygod]

she lives right accross the border from osceola Wisconsin, she should be in the chisago lakes school district but she still lives 10 miles from that school, She does awesome at everything but when the coaches said that at the initial meeting she didn't even bother going out because they said they didn't want her, She is a good friend of my daughters that's how I know her situation so well, she would of been a good addition to the JV team that only has 10 kids on it, but now she will never play hockey

[xwildfan]

Re: 8th grader from Chisago Lakes. Not good enough for JV? Are you kidding? This coach is an idiot. Anyone who has seen a JV game, knows that if you can lace up skates and put a uniform on, you can play at the JV level. IF this player is an athlete and a hard worker, she could perhaps even help out the varsity later in her HS career. I personally know of a girl who played one year at U15 (her 1st year of hockey), followed by one year at the JV level and two years at the varsity level. She is now a captain on one of the teams in the MIAC.

[ghshockeyfan]

Anything is possible, but you have to have some vision to believe that (within reason of course).

Also, I think a JV can accomplish a lot of things for a HS program, but it has to be the right mindset. If all a JV is about is winning, I think that's the wrong emphasis. If all it is is a place to go to end a players career, that isn't right either. It should be about development of all the players that aren't ready yet for the V. Again, JV shouldn't be a place that players go to end their career, unless that is their choice to do so. It should be about getting them ready for the next level, an intermediate step between youth & V - if they were fortunate enough to be able to play youth.

xk1 is right. If there are youth opportunities (that will take such kids) this is a great option.... but.... the other issue is that for "beginners" that are still U12 or U14 eligible, how many of these kids would want to find a co-op in another community, or would pay 2-3-4-5x as much to play even in their own community, have to likely provide all their equipment & transportation, etc. Usually what I find is that word spreads in a community about opportunities to play hockey at a reasonable cost, and then kids consider it where they wouldn't have before. I always hope they are 7th-8th-9th graders vs. upperclassmen, as then they do legitimately have a shot at playing V one day, although it's not probable - but possible. I take beginners though no matter what age assuming they wouldn't play otherwise at a higher cost, etc. My assistant coach, one of the top all-time leading scorers at one MIAC school and also participant on some State Tourney teams didn't start hockey until 9th grade. But, the days of "if you build it" hockey are long gone I know. For me, if I can offer the opportunity to play hockey to a kid and teach them a boatload of life lessons in the process, I don't know that this is wrong. Often, it's an easy decision if you have the resources, patience, and understanding of how fortunate you were to start so much younger.

On this note, I had a Brazilian exchange student that's a senior show up today after Varity practice and tell me that she wants to play hockey after she heard about how fun & affordable it is from others that we've given the opportunity to. I talked to her for a couple minutes, and then received an email from her tonight saying that she's going to buy her own skates, but we would have found her some of those too had we had to. We will outfit her with everything else. She will start this week I bet. I wish that everyone could have seen how appreciative she was and listened to her talk so enthusiastically about "just wanting to try" and "even would love to just do practice." This is an amazing learning experience for my experienced players as well. They learn to be supportive of these new kids - mentors & such, we accomplish all we need to (no one is held back in the development process) and those that had the chance to play so young have increased respect for how fortunate they truly are.

It's funny, never once have I ever heard any player in my program complain about the "new" players. Instead they rally around them and many have recruited great athletes from other winter sports! I think this in itself is a great life lesson. But, we do have to spend some extra time as coaches to make sure that all runs smoothly and that no one is being held back due to the different goals of all the players in the program. I was just commenting to one of my assistants this AM about how I think the neat thing is that we have kids that have all different goals yet find a way to develop all the players to their full potential. Some are here just to try it (JV), some are here just for fun (JV), some are here to play competitively & develop (JV & V), and some want to play post-HS (V).

[xk1]

As I said earlier, GHS has the ice time and the staff to take on players like this and as he indicated he is doing it again. If they have only 10 kids on JV it could be they have a joint practice with the Varsity in which case it might be hard to work her in. I am only speculating here trying to underdatnd why the coach made this decision.

A quick check of this girl's home district indicates they have a U14A program. I don't think that is the place to learn how to skate either, they may have a U19B team in that area, I recall WBL did last year. That option should be looked into as it might get her ready enough so the coach will take her next year.

[ghshockeyfan]

I think that having a JV is key to be able to doing this. Actually, the practice ice is more key than anything for this - as well as staffing in any environment. I don't know that a V only team can do this without the proper staffing to get this kid 1-on-1 attention during practice as that is needed to keep the rest of the practice moving along without interuption from the new player. We were able to pull this off at Kennedy. I don't know that a U19B team or even a lot of U14B teams would take a beginner? Some 12B's may though, but many aren't young enough to take advantage of this - and worse yet is that many beginners that would play cheap HS hockey with provided equipment & transportation wouldn't likely play more expensive youth hockey where they had to provide equipment & transportation. I'd always talk with the youth assn. though to see what they can do.

[hockeygod]

Something that coaches don't realize that leads to some of them quitting or getting fired is that girls hockey players are different than boys, and join for different reasons. The Social aspect is huge with girls and they tend to take up sports at an older level. A good coach will take these girls whether they are all stars or barely skate because that girl will tell two friends, who will come out next year and thats how you build a program. The coaches that tend to leave programs have a hard time adjusting to this because they are used to the competiitve nature of boys and when they make a comment that would not affect a boy it will disrupt a whole girls team. so they end up not talking which is bad, or saying something dumb, which is worse. The best girls coaches are the best communicators!!

[ghshockeyfan]

Something that coaches don't realize that leads to some of them quitting or getting fired is that girls hockey players are different than boys, and join for different reasons. The Social aspect is huge with girls and they tend to take up sports at an older level. A good coach will take these girls whether they are all stars or barely skate because that girl will tell two friends, who will come out next year and thats how you build a program. The coaches that tend to leave programs have a hard time adjusting to this because they are used to the competiitve nature of boys and when they make a comment that would not affect a boy it will disrupt a whole girls team. so they end up not talking which is bad, or saying something dumb, which is worse. The best girls coaches are the best communicators!!

This is true.