Elite League
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Elite League
Why has an elite league for HS Girls been developed like for the boys. This appears to be a great concept and offers great competition and development for top players. Has a poll ever ben taken on this subject?
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ghshockeyfan
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Too many are motivated to do this for egos/$$$ or it's not truly "elite."
What needs to happen is for the coaches assn or another independent entity that isn't about $$$/egos to use the NDP tryout to select truly elite teams.
We have too many people trying to do similar things. This dilutes all and makes it non-elite.
What needs to happen is for the coaches assn or another independent entity that isn't about $$$/egos to use the NDP tryout to select truly elite teams.
We have too many people trying to do similar things. This dilutes all and makes it non-elite.
Elite league
A few people put leagues and teams together for all the wrong reasons. Mostly to make alot of money with no interest furthering the careers of these girls.
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ghshockeyfan
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Lots of different motivations. I know that the ideas are good, but the $$$/ego part corrupts everything no matter how hard you try to not let it do so.
If a group was doing this as a non-profit or on behalf of MN H & MGHCA, then we would see more what like the boys have.
The problem is that the groups now all trying to do their own things were told to work together, but too much gets in the way of this. As much as I hate to say it, the MGHCA may have to take this on if MN H won't, and I'm guessing they won't as it's a lot of work to do NDP alone and all else they do. MGHCA does a ton too with SR Classic, Jr Fest, FR/So Camp, joint work on Chicago Showcase w/ MN H & other items. Truthfully, there is no reason that the Spring NDP couldn't be used as the tryouts for this and then the two tiers could be determined by participation level in NDP. NDP is picked by independent evaluators (no HS coaches even). I could get into detailed format I would use, etc. but it's pointless to discuss any further at this point in time.
The bottom line is we do need this as we don't have to travel all over to accomplish this (high level competition/training & even visibility...). The travel could be separate with a select few teams of kids that WANT to do so (as it is now pretty much)., as they pretty much can't play Fall sports that way. The funny part is we often go 100's, if not 1000's, of miles away to play the same teams in the metro, but this really only makes sense for the kids that don't get out east to NDP, don't get even to P2 when a ton of college coaches are around, kids that don't get to state or play in other featured holiday tourneys, etc. I will say that it does help to get seen more, and this is important for some players that may be borderline D1 or have not made the NDP, etc.
I guess I'd probably go with NDP P2+ kids in T1, NDP Nominated & NDP P1 kids in T2. If they want to travel too, align them with currently existing AAA B&A teams. Have some cross Tier games but limit this, and also consider if it's important to play in U19 & U16 levels, etc.
It doesn't need to be expensive, travel intensive, or difficult - could be done with 25+ player rosters so kids could miss for fall sports, etc.
In fact, I would imagine that we will soon start to attract other elite AAA teams to come here to play us if we could get something legit going in conjunction with SSM & TBreds, but we have to stop fighting over the best players and have one true elite league, else it's just a joke with so many "elite" offerings.
If a group was doing this as a non-profit or on behalf of MN H & MGHCA, then we would see more what like the boys have.
The problem is that the groups now all trying to do their own things were told to work together, but too much gets in the way of this. As much as I hate to say it, the MGHCA may have to take this on if MN H won't, and I'm guessing they won't as it's a lot of work to do NDP alone and all else they do. MGHCA does a ton too with SR Classic, Jr Fest, FR/So Camp, joint work on Chicago Showcase w/ MN H & other items. Truthfully, there is no reason that the Spring NDP couldn't be used as the tryouts for this and then the two tiers could be determined by participation level in NDP. NDP is picked by independent evaluators (no HS coaches even). I could get into detailed format I would use, etc. but it's pointless to discuss any further at this point in time.
The bottom line is we do need this as we don't have to travel all over to accomplish this (high level competition/training & even visibility...). The travel could be separate with a select few teams of kids that WANT to do so (as it is now pretty much)., as they pretty much can't play Fall sports that way. The funny part is we often go 100's, if not 1000's, of miles away to play the same teams in the metro, but this really only makes sense for the kids that don't get out east to NDP, don't get even to P2 when a ton of college coaches are around, kids that don't get to state or play in other featured holiday tourneys, etc. I will say that it does help to get seen more, and this is important for some players that may be borderline D1 or have not made the NDP, etc.
I guess I'd probably go with NDP P2+ kids in T1, NDP Nominated & NDP P1 kids in T2. If they want to travel too, align them with currently existing AAA B&A teams. Have some cross Tier games but limit this, and also consider if it's important to play in U19 & U16 levels, etc.
It doesn't need to be expensive, travel intensive, or difficult - could be done with 25+ player rosters so kids could miss for fall sports, etc.
In fact, I would imagine that we will soon start to attract other elite AAA teams to come here to play us if we could get something legit going in conjunction with SSM & TBreds, but we have to stop fighting over the best players and have one true elite league, else it's just a joke with so many "elite" offerings.
Elite League
More than any other one specific complaint, I read "only to make a bunch of money" regarding anyone who may attempt to organize events or competitions for "elite" level players. Who exactly would be expected to bother with such an undertaking on a not for profit basis? Seems to me if that's what people expect or insist upon you stand a better chance of eliminating any such opportunity. In other words, I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to organize any such competition for nothing...no incentive. How do potential participants expect that to happen exactly? I'm genuinely curious. Or maybe someone can inform me what a fair / reasonable cost might be and if typical fees far excede that amount.
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ghshockeyfan
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Don't get me wrong, there has to be incentive - I agree - but that's where I believe a "coaches assn" like entity can assist. They compensate people involved in their events as needed, but their primary focus isn't doing anything but breaking even in the end (non-profit). Being involved in these events as a coach is a resume builder as well - but you likely need to compensate those involved beyond that.
There are things that can be done though to reduce cost. Travel is problematic for one, fancy jerseys is another issue, tourneys seem to cost a ton when they could be set up by the involved teams for half the cost, etc
Ice is expensive, you need to pay referees & game attendants (scorekeeper). Coaches and administrators should be compensated but reasonable amounts.
Maybe I had better just let this go as we are lucky that those that are doing this now are doing it at all. I just hate to see everyone frustrated with turnout, quality, etc., etc. That could kill any "elite" opportunities moving forward. What we realy need is each of these groups to work together I think, but I don't believe that will ever happen.
There are things that can be done though to reduce cost. Travel is problematic for one, fancy jerseys is another issue, tourneys seem to cost a ton when they could be set up by the involved teams for half the cost, etc
Ice is expensive, you need to pay referees & game attendants (scorekeeper). Coaches and administrators should be compensated but reasonable amounts.
Maybe I had better just let this go as we are lucky that those that are doing this now are doing it at all. I just hate to see everyone frustrated with turnout, quality, etc., etc. That could kill any "elite" opportunities moving forward. What we realy need is each of these groups to work together I think, but I don't believe that will ever happen.
A couple thoughts / questions. First, what are the reasons for forming a fall girls elite league? I understand the reasons for forming the boy's elite league; to help prevent HS players from joining the junior teams while they still have HS eligibility and perhaps Ann Arbor as well.
If the juniors and Ann Arbor did not exist, I doubt if the boys elite league would exist. There are no such threats to girls hockey.
Also, there has been much mention of many different people doing their own thing with various AAA teams that divide up the talent. Who are the major players on the AAA scene? And have they ever been brought together at one time in one room to discuss how to put an elite league in place? Or is that a totally unrealistic idea?
If the juniors and Ann Arbor did not exist, I doubt if the boys elite league would exist. There are no such threats to girls hockey.
Also, there has been much mention of many different people doing their own thing with various AAA teams that divide up the talent. Who are the major players on the AAA scene? And have they ever been brought together at one time in one room to discuss how to put an elite league in place? Or is that a totally unrealistic idea?
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ghshockeyfan
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I think the threat to G HS is T-Breds/SSM/other prep schools. The idea is that kids won't have to explore these options that make them leave their home HS (like juniors/etc. for boys). What we have in the place of an affordable and "main attraction" (that centralizes all the talent as Boys Elite does) is a mess right now. The fragmentation and differing agendas are the issue, but I do commend these groups for dong something where else there would be nothing?
I think the point is that many of the "elite" kids spend all regular HS season making HS teams & the HS game viable. Some believe this occurs at the expense of their development. What we want to avoid is more T-Breds like teams from forming and pulling the true talent out of the regular season HS game. This would be highly expensive, destroy community based hockey as we know it, and also lead to a system like that employed across the rest of the US where community based hockey is not the norm (but AAA is). We many times are upset about the MN setup, but we create so many players in general that that is what helps give us more elite level players (statistically it should make sense that more players in general increases the likelihood of more elite players...). The rest of the nation may be catching up numbers wise, but our MN model has really been successful in many ways. There are some things that could be changed/tried to see if they would be better though...
So, there are a number of reasons for needing an Elite League.
Primarily though:
***Keeping best talent in the MSHSL during regular season by offering an elite league that bookends the regular season.
***Pushing/Developing that talent in affordable non-travel intensive opportunities while creating another avenue to showcase talent while hopefully drawing opponents/college coaches to us vs. traveling to them.
As far as sitting all down and trying to work it out - MN Hockey mandated this, and those involved couldn't (or wouldn't?) get it done. There are only a real select few that have the connections to pull this off (meaning, getting everyone together) and even if they did they'd have to have outstanding facilitation skills and even then you don't know if all the parties would see the "greater good" vs. other agenda issues... If egos and issues could be set aside and we could do what's best, that would be awesome! The boys are the model, but we can't follow that directly as some things don't translate (namely #'s).
It may be that each group that wants to be involved could be in charge of a couple teams under an umbrella organization, etc. and that would be a good compromise I think. The problem is that these groups spend way too much time fighting over the same elite players, and not enough time on the final product (quality league).
I think the point is that many of the "elite" kids spend all regular HS season making HS teams & the HS game viable. Some believe this occurs at the expense of their development. What we want to avoid is more T-Breds like teams from forming and pulling the true talent out of the regular season HS game. This would be highly expensive, destroy community based hockey as we know it, and also lead to a system like that employed across the rest of the US where community based hockey is not the norm (but AAA is). We many times are upset about the MN setup, but we create so many players in general that that is what helps give us more elite level players (statistically it should make sense that more players in general increases the likelihood of more elite players...). The rest of the nation may be catching up numbers wise, but our MN model has really been successful in many ways. There are some things that could be changed/tried to see if they would be better though...
So, there are a number of reasons for needing an Elite League.
Primarily though:
***Keeping best talent in the MSHSL during regular season by offering an elite league that bookends the regular season.
***Pushing/Developing that talent in affordable non-travel intensive opportunities while creating another avenue to showcase talent while hopefully drawing opponents/college coaches to us vs. traveling to them.
As far as sitting all down and trying to work it out - MN Hockey mandated this, and those involved couldn't (or wouldn't?) get it done. There are only a real select few that have the connections to pull this off (meaning, getting everyone together) and even if they did they'd have to have outstanding facilitation skills and even then you don't know if all the parties would see the "greater good" vs. other agenda issues... If egos and issues could be set aside and we could do what's best, that would be awesome! The boys are the model, but we can't follow that directly as some things don't translate (namely #'s).
It may be that each group that wants to be involved could be in charge of a couple teams under an umbrella organization, etc. and that would be a good compromise I think. The problem is that these groups spend way too much time fighting over the same elite players, and not enough time on the final product (quality league).
I don't know how the Wakota high school girls league is going, but the showcase one is pretty lame. Look at scores on the showcase website, there are quite a few 7-1 or 8-0 type scores. It does seem like there should be either a better structure to keep hs girls involved with their own teams, or an elite before/after league to give the top players a challenge.
Correct me if I am wrong, but maybe the reason why there isn't a huge need for a fall hockey program is that girls are playing more than one sport at a time. Which is a good thing. They don't have time to play in an intense fall leauge. The elite leauge for boys takes up almost every weekend in the fall which wouldn't work if you were trying to play a fall sport.
Two or Three Sport Athletes
Many of the girls in our area are at minimum two sport athletes but the ones who would compete very successfully in a Fall elite league are three sport student-athletes (as well as musicians) so that is a HUGE factor for gals in our area. Simply, Not enough Time!
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ghshockeyfan
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the problem isn't that there aren't elite players wanting to play, the problem is that they are spread out instead of in one unified entitiy. If all together, you could also add/rotate players through a bigger roster based on availability re: Fall Sports, etc.
The boys do this I hear with some teams to attempt to enable other activities, although many say that it is tough with the schedule. I think if the majority is done metro with Fall sports in mind, we'd be able to offer this to accomplish all I mentioned above.
But, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time and certainly wouldn't be the last! You have to try though.
The boys do this I hear with some teams to attempt to enable other activities, although many say that it is tough with the schedule. I think if the majority is done metro with Fall sports in mind, we'd be able to offer this to accomplish all I mentioned above.
But, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time and certainly wouldn't be the last! You have to try though.
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ghshockeyfan
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Re: Non-Metro
Point taken.SportsMa wrote:My comment was strictly made from a non-metro perspective.
Good Luck in the pursuit of the Fall Elite League.
None of this is ideal - that's for certain. Just would hate to see kids migrate to Non-MSHSL Prep schools/AAA or think more about Privates/Open Enrollment as a result of not having this.
This may be a non-issue at this point, but could become more of an issue as we see the transfer rules tightened?
Maybe we'll have to see some non-MSHSL Tbred like AAA teams start just to accomodate kids sitting out transfer rule years?
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hshockeyfan91
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Some is better than nothing....
The boys Elite is/was structured in a way to allow boys to play fall sports, and still do the elite league stuff. It's not perfect - there might be a Saturday soccer game or something thatt gets in the way, but it is feasible to play football, soccer or something and still do boys elite league.
The girls "elite" league attempts all seem to be setup in a way that doesn't recognize that girls have homework, friends, possibly church, jobs and other sports. Hockey is an IMPORTANT piece of girls' lives, but it isn't the ONLY piece. Isn't there a way to have stronger players practice and compete with each other in a way that doesn't consume massive amounts of time / travel?
I'm not sure I fully agree with the idea of using the NDP tryouts as the selection tool, but I sure can't think of anything better either, so I guess I would be in favor of doing that.
It is really too bad that people can't work together to get something done - the hodge podge of stuff that is out there is kind of sad.
The girls "elite" league attempts all seem to be setup in a way that doesn't recognize that girls have homework, friends, possibly church, jobs and other sports. Hockey is an IMPORTANT piece of girls' lives, but it isn't the ONLY piece. Isn't there a way to have stronger players practice and compete with each other in a way that doesn't consume massive amounts of time / travel?
I'm not sure I fully agree with the idea of using the NDP tryouts as the selection tool, but I sure can't think of anything better either, so I guess I would be in favor of doing that.
It is really too bad that people can't work together to get something done - the hodge podge of stuff that is out there is kind of sad.
Two or Three Sport Athletes
My daughter is currently playing in the elite league that Schmigdal has set up, using some of the White Cap players as coaches. They started out being strict about missing any practices or games. Because a lot of the players are student athletes, they did back down if a reason for missing was ACT's, fall sport games, etc. The players that have signed up are getting a good mix of practices and games. Both games and practices have been intense. I think Schmigdal has the right idea and I would also like all the groups to get together to form one good league. I think one league would be the best for all players, as noted in earlier posts. Hopefully the word will spread that the current elite league is worth it and it will expand next year.