How do you set up a Before & After Team?
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How do you set up a Before & After Team?
Where are the rules for the formation of a Before and After Team? I think I understand that a team has to be registered with USA hockey/Minnesota hockey play 15 games against other registered teams. Can you form a U16 team to compete for state or is it only at the U19 level. Who would you talk to at Minnesota Hockey or where are the rules posted?
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ghshockeyfan
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Only 88 & 89 bdays are eligible this year for B&A play if not with the T-breds or SSM teams. So, U16 is impossible - but SSM is allowed to send their team to Nationals as MN rep @ U16. U19 will have a 3-team tourney to go to nationals this year? Last year it was 4, but I don't beleive that one of the two non-SSM/TB teams is doing it this year?
For 2008 it would be only 89 & 90 bdays eligible, and it's tough to get the 10/14 rule - 14 team games, 10 for each player - with these teams. Nice provision is that you could play Sr Women's "WHAM" (top A1) teams to get in some games and not have to travel all over the nation.
I guess that's my hang-up on this now. I guess I'm not convinced anymore that this is always better than if we put together something worthwhile as a B&A league in MN (i.e. elite league like boys but with an "A" component). Technically I suppose you could comprise a couple teams of the 88's & 89's, etc. that are eligible and WANT to go to nationals if the team wins the Minnkota tourney. It would be nice to see us start to work with TB & SSM here in MN and then also attract other Non-MN AAA teams here in a B&A elite league vs. us having to go all over the nation/area.
The other reason I have a problem with this is that with only 88's/89's being eligible, it's almost pointless for the "exposure" at Natioanls that they would get. The juniors/sophs would benifit more from this as by March/April many of the seniors are signed I would think? (or the top ones are anyway - but may benifit unsigned players just a little off that very top player group?)
For these seniors, the early season B&A AAA trips to Vt, etc. make the most sense, but after that the value diminishes greatly I think. Really, truley, then the kids that benifit the most from the continued exposure are the ones that haven't already solidified a deal through NDP NY & other particiaption, and I would argue that very few kids that aren't NY NDP kids will sign D1 deals and would go D3 anyway (but be top D3 players) unless they "walk-on" D1.
I think some of these things were similar considerations used when looking at "Chicago Showcase" in the spring relative to using only players that aren't already committed college wise...
For 2008 it would be only 89 & 90 bdays eligible, and it's tough to get the 10/14 rule - 14 team games, 10 for each player - with these teams. Nice provision is that you could play Sr Women's "WHAM" (top A1) teams to get in some games and not have to travel all over the nation.
I guess that's my hang-up on this now. I guess I'm not convinced anymore that this is always better than if we put together something worthwhile as a B&A league in MN (i.e. elite league like boys but with an "A" component). Technically I suppose you could comprise a couple teams of the 88's & 89's, etc. that are eligible and WANT to go to nationals if the team wins the Minnkota tourney. It would be nice to see us start to work with TB & SSM here in MN and then also attract other Non-MN AAA teams here in a B&A elite league vs. us having to go all over the nation/area.
The other reason I have a problem with this is that with only 88's/89's being eligible, it's almost pointless for the "exposure" at Natioanls that they would get. The juniors/sophs would benifit more from this as by March/April many of the seniors are signed I would think? (or the top ones are anyway - but may benifit unsigned players just a little off that very top player group?)
For these seniors, the early season B&A AAA trips to Vt, etc. make the most sense, but after that the value diminishes greatly I think. Really, truley, then the kids that benifit the most from the continued exposure are the ones that haven't already solidified a deal through NDP NY & other particiaption, and I would argue that very few kids that aren't NY NDP kids will sign D1 deals and would go D3 anyway (but be top D3 players) unless they "walk-on" D1.
I think some of these things were similar considerations used when looking at "Chicago Showcase" in the spring relative to using only players that aren't already committed college wise...
I guess Dennis Green or Lynn Olson would be good places to start. The process is similar to starting your own assciation as I doubt you will find a current association to take you. It's a lot of paper work. There are two kinds of team you can set up, to compete for state you need to declare your team as a national bound team. It si this kind of team that doesn't allow U16 kids to be rostered. This is a MN Hockey policy, not USA Hockey. You can also set up a "high school" version of a U19 team. This type of team can compete against U19 teams but not for state or nationals. The High school version of a B&A team can have U16 eligible players but no U14 (by MN age rules).
xk1 thank you for the guidance - can anyone help with additional context?
These two are good people at Minnesota Hockey, what is the basis/history behind the rules? Our daughter is just a 92 but played HS Hockey as an 8th grader last year. The HS season seems so short for her and the multitude of leagues seem more rec based than competitive?
Forming B&A U16 or U19 that could compete at state/region/nation would seem to make sense to represent Minnesota Hockey especially if USA Hockey has teams at these levels and other states across the country have very good teams/programs. I would think Minnesota Hockey would want to make these options for girls who are playing HS Hockey? These teams would register with USA Hockey and Minnesota Hockey.
There are not many/any clubs at these levels around the state - maybe only where there is not HS Girls Hockey or where girls are playing who can't paly at HS level? It would also seem that this gives Shattuck at automatic berth to Nationals at the U16 level? I think the goal is good competion for all.
Can anyone share the background and thought process behind why the program is this way?
I support HS hockey and don't want top players to have to pursue T-Bred or Shattuck as their only option to play more quality games and get good developement like provided within USA Hockey and Minnesota Hockey.
These two are good people at Minnesota Hockey, what is the basis/history behind the rules? Our daughter is just a 92 but played HS Hockey as an 8th grader last year. The HS season seems so short for her and the multitude of leagues seem more rec based than competitive?
Forming B&A U16 or U19 that could compete at state/region/nation would seem to make sense to represent Minnesota Hockey especially if USA Hockey has teams at these levels and other states across the country have very good teams/programs. I would think Minnesota Hockey would want to make these options for girls who are playing HS Hockey? These teams would register with USA Hockey and Minnesota Hockey.
There are not many/any clubs at these levels around the state - maybe only where there is not HS Girls Hockey or where girls are playing who can't paly at HS level? It would also seem that this gives Shattuck at automatic berth to Nationals at the U16 level? I think the goal is good competion for all.
Can anyone share the background and thought process behind why the program is this way?
I support HS hockey and don't want top players to have to pursue T-Bred or Shattuck as their only option to play more quality games and get good developement like provided within USA Hockey and Minnesota Hockey.
I believe one of the key considerations is whatever rules they come up with need to apply to boys as well. I have heard MN Hockey is against kids under the age of 15 traveling as well.
I assume your daughter is a U14 age playing HS. At this age I think most feel she can gain the most by spending her time/money doing skill training like OS/CODP/Total Hockey and others. There are many tournaments in the off season as well to teat these skills as she gains them. Does she go to a mtero area school?
I assume your daughter is a U14 age playing HS. At this age I think most feel she can gain the most by spending her time/money doing skill training like OS/CODP/Total Hockey and others. There are many tournaments in the off season as well to teat these skills as she gains them. Does she go to a mtero area school?
Thanks - I really believe in skill development. She does CODP in June-July. The Hudson Total Hockey camp in August and does skill training at Total Hockey 1-2 times a week when they offer drop in/Flex Pass October- March because of the great coaching offered by Dean Talafous.
She plays Soccer for her HS in the fall period but really doesn't love it like hockey. We are really concerned about the amount of ankle, knee and leg injuries we are seeing in soccer her HS team had three major leg injuries that ended the player's season.
For Girls Hockey there appears to be a significant gap in competition and play between mid August and the HS season and after the Hockey Season until Late April/May which I think would mirror a B&A program. We see the Elite League as it is set up for Boys and think that would be tremendous and have followed the comments on this topic on the forum - this would be a tremendous option.
As far as travel I guess I understand but isn't that up to the family? I am not sure my daughter is an elite athlete but we have done a tremendous amount of travel connected with hockey, soccer, piano and school activities.
I am just interested in this as an option for those who want to play more against top competition. We never trade out hockey to school - she is 4.0 student and very involved. I support and understand the parents and other players who play three sports or aren't in favor of this for whatever reason and they would be able to look at this as an option to pursue or not.
She plays Soccer for her HS in the fall period but really doesn't love it like hockey. We are really concerned about the amount of ankle, knee and leg injuries we are seeing in soccer her HS team had three major leg injuries that ended the player's season.
For Girls Hockey there appears to be a significant gap in competition and play between mid August and the HS season and after the Hockey Season until Late April/May which I think would mirror a B&A program. We see the Elite League as it is set up for Boys and think that would be tremendous and have followed the comments on this topic on the forum - this would be a tremendous option.
As far as travel I guess I understand but isn't that up to the family? I am not sure my daughter is an elite athlete but we have done a tremendous amount of travel connected with hockey, soccer, piano and school activities.
I am just interested in this as an option for those who want to play more against top competition. We never trade out hockey to school - she is 4.0 student and very involved. I support and understand the parents and other players who play three sports or aren't in favor of this for whatever reason and they would be able to look at this as an option to pursue or not.
I am passing on info as I understand it, not necessarily my own opinion. I thought there was a Fall CODP this year, perhaps it's for older girls. The Fall Showcase and other leagues are not all that great but they are what you make of them. The difficult thing about getting a Fall league like the boys is numbers. Girls play other Fall sports and put a higher premium on social functions like homecoming. I'm not saying they all do but enough that it makes it hard to get more than half a team to show up at many games.
The reality here is there is still a lack of numbers to do thinks right in girls sports. If we had the numbers your daughter would be playing u14 and be involved in her team rather than waiting around for the HS season to start. I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else, the nature of the game is we all expect our girls to be playing HS way too early, partly becasue the HS needs to players and partly because U14 is way to weak. Both are a result of poor numbers, until we increase numbers the solutions will be very limited. I know that doesn't help you now, I have heard this for 10 years but the numbers just aren't going up enough.
The reality here is there is still a lack of numbers to do thinks right in girls sports. If we had the numbers your daughter would be playing u14 and be involved in her team rather than waiting around for the HS season to start. I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else, the nature of the game is we all expect our girls to be playing HS way too early, partly becasue the HS needs to players and partly because U14 is way to weak. Both are a result of poor numbers, until we increase numbers the solutions will be very limited. I know that doesn't help you now, I have heard this for 10 years but the numbers just aren't going up enough.
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ghshockeyfan
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xk1 has good insight on this.
I will say that the answer is still simple. It's simply an elite league that does the best it can to avoid the conflicts. I don't think it needs to be as elobrate as the boys to start, and may never need to get to that level. I do think though that we could add an "After" component. Not to necissarily compete for Nationals, but at least to have a quality post-HS Season opportunity...
I will say that the answer is still simple. It's simply an elite league that does the best it can to avoid the conflicts. I don't think it needs to be as elobrate as the boys to start, and may never need to get to that level. I do think though that we could add an "After" component. Not to necissarily compete for Nationals, but at least to have a quality post-HS Season opportunity...
related discussion
On the boys high school forum website - there is a discussion arising out of an effort to get a U16 boys team B&A team to play Shattuck U16 boys for Nationals. I assume that the information would apply to someone trying to put together a U16 B&A to compete with Shattuck girls. One of the posters is a Minn. Hockey guy.
See Shattuck v. U16 Blades string.
See Shattuck v. U16 Blades string.
SSM girls do send a U16 team to nationals. I understand that the TBs attempted to get a U16 team and their proposal was turned down last year.
SSM and the TBs each have their own arrangement with MN hockey and they don't appear to be the same rules. For example, the U19 TBs can't use any girls that would be U14 by MN rules but SSM can. The other thing we discovered is that different officials for MN hockey have different understandings of how it works. To really know what you are up against you need to make a proposal and deal with MN Hockey, thigs you hear here or even from some MN Hockey people are not always accurate.
SSM and the TBs each have their own arrangement with MN hockey and they don't appear to be the same rules. For example, the U19 TBs can't use any girls that would be U14 by MN rules but SSM can. The other thing we discovered is that different officials for MN hockey have different understandings of how it works. To really know what you are up against you need to make a proposal and deal with MN Hockey, thigs you hear here or even from some MN Hockey people are not always accurate.
There are currently two CODP teams, U16 and U19, playing sort of a free-lance schedule until HS tryouts start. The tryouts for these teams were pretty well advertised. I think the U16 team was limited as far as games go--only playing in a couple of tournaments in Madison or Oshkosh, but I'm sure the training was top notch like the regular summer version of CODP. The U19 team played the T-Breds a whole bunch as well as SSM and some Wisc. tourneys. I don't know if this qualifies as a B&A situation, but I'd bet it's a good use of the time between summer CODP and October, and I'd also bet they'll be starting something up in the spring eventually.
Gardez toujours votre bâton sur la glace...
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ghshockeyfan
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this is B&A like minus the MINKOTA "state" tourney for 19's...
My problem with all of this is that we have too many trying to do too many different things. There needs to be one effort so that all the talent is concentrated in one, not spread out over many.
the end result is a bunch of questionable opportunities at best. Maybe more opportunity, but less quality (as far as concentrated talent) - and quality is what this "elite" is all about.
I'm NOT knocking the development in all of these opportunities, as I'm sure it's great as far as the on-ice component. My concern is with the lack of unified effort that would create the best possible end product.
Too many groups doing too many different things right now... And the profit driven model may not be what's best here either.... Not sure how the boys handle this aspect but it may want to be looked into...
Also, we need the backing (not just allowing, but true backing) of USA H, MN H, MSHSL, and MGHCA (Girls HS Coaches Assn). Without this, you end up with what we have now. With it, you end up with NDP-like situation - all the best players going after that one event/goal....
My problem with all of this is that we have too many trying to do too many different things. There needs to be one effort so that all the talent is concentrated in one, not spread out over many.
the end result is a bunch of questionable opportunities at best. Maybe more opportunity, but less quality (as far as concentrated talent) - and quality is what this "elite" is all about.
I'm NOT knocking the development in all of these opportunities, as I'm sure it's great as far as the on-ice component. My concern is with the lack of unified effort that would create the best possible end product.
Too many groups doing too many different things right now... And the profit driven model may not be what's best here either.... Not sure how the boys handle this aspect but it may want to be looked into...
Also, we need the backing (not just allowing, but true backing) of USA H, MN H, MSHSL, and MGHCA (Girls HS Coaches Assn). Without this, you end up with what we have now. With it, you end up with NDP-like situation - all the best players going after that one event/goal....
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ghshockeyfan
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And while I'm complaining...
The reason why we need to travel even with so many of these opportunities is that many of them are fighting with eachother for players, will not play each other, have different "agreements" with allies vs enemies, etc. It's simply absurd and people need to work together if we're going to accomplish anything that is meaningful...
The only reason I see the need to travel is that we HAVE NOT created something in MN to attract other teams/College Coaches/etc. to. VT has a Labor Day tourney that does this, and they've done it with 1/10th of the talent we have sitting in our back yard in MN.
If we have a unified elite league effort we can too offer these events here in MN which means we don't HAVE to travel, can concentrate that $$$ on development/practice vs. airfaire, make the opportunities affordable to more of our MN kids to get this sort of recognition, etc.
Someone needs to get MN H, MGHCA/MSHSL together and do this like NDP. I'd base it on NDP tryouts. Why have another tryout and waste the time/$$$? That's pointless!!! Use the NDP Spring Tryouts for teams for B&A Fall & Spring just like the boys (but with a Spring "A" component). Have two Tiers - T1 = Phase 2/NY NDP kids, T2=Phase 1/Nominated NDP kids. Play 1-2 games Sundays, try to practice 1x a week, put together a Fall & Spring "season" ending event that all the college coaches would attend and have that attract non-MN AAA and work WITH TB & SSM to do all of this! I assume SSM 16 could play in the T2 league.... In fact, I would think that SSM woudl welcome this at 19 & 16's as they are no longer in he MWEHL?
The reason why we need to travel even with so many of these opportunities is that many of them are fighting with eachother for players, will not play each other, have different "agreements" with allies vs enemies, etc. It's simply absurd and people need to work together if we're going to accomplish anything that is meaningful...
The only reason I see the need to travel is that we HAVE NOT created something in MN to attract other teams/College Coaches/etc. to. VT has a Labor Day tourney that does this, and they've done it with 1/10th of the talent we have sitting in our back yard in MN.
If we have a unified elite league effort we can too offer these events here in MN which means we don't HAVE to travel, can concentrate that $$$ on development/practice vs. airfaire, make the opportunities affordable to more of our MN kids to get this sort of recognition, etc.
Someone needs to get MN H, MGHCA/MSHSL together and do this like NDP. I'd base it on NDP tryouts. Why have another tryout and waste the time/$$$? That's pointless!!! Use the NDP Spring Tryouts for teams for B&A Fall & Spring just like the boys (but with a Spring "A" component). Have two Tiers - T1 = Phase 2/NY NDP kids, T2=Phase 1/Nominated NDP kids. Play 1-2 games Sundays, try to practice 1x a week, put together a Fall & Spring "season" ending event that all the college coaches would attend and have that attract non-MN AAA and work WITH TB & SSM to do all of this! I assume SSM 16 could play in the T2 league.... In fact, I would think that SSM woudl welcome this at 19 & 16's as they are no longer in he MWEHL?