Shakopee vs. Edina

[hotdog]

Just curious... What was the final score? Some places say it was 3-2 Edina and some say it was 2-2 tie.

Not that it matters a whole lot, I thought someone out there might know the entire story.

[xk1]

For MSHSL purposes, the game ended after the first OT as a 2-2 tie. To determine a tournament winner, a second OT took place. The outcome as well as any stats for the second OT don't count toward the official record.

[cluelessinminnesota]

Hello XK1:

I believe you are incorrect.

If you look at state tournament play in previous years all records are keep even if the teams play beyond one overtime. All shots count, all goals scored, and yes, the final score is the official record.

Perhaps you can show me a MSHL League bylaw that states otherwise.

And when you are done doing that maybe you can show me the line in the KRACH algorithm that says "don't use the final result." Instead, make up some result that fits your objective. Does this mean AHA and Shakopee tied last night? Of course not.

[xk1]

The State Tournamnet is a different deal, look at Schwan cup results over the last several years and you will see many examples.

[ghshockeyfan]

For MSHSL purposes, the game ended after the first OT as a 2-2 tie. To determine a tournament winner, a second OT took place. The outcome as well as any stats for the second OT don't count toward the official record.

This is my understanding as well - but I'm double-checking this with the MSHSL just to be certain.

One interesting discussion item that has come out of this tourney/extra OT winner scenario is how it should be reflected statistically, and also specifically for the purpose of the "Power" or Krach rankings. There could be two sides to this discussion - in that in the 2nd OT Edina did score, but at the same time KRACH uses the "official" game score - which at this point from what I know is interpreted as a tie since the game ended tied after the first 8 minute OT.

I'm also checking to see how this is handled by the NCAA and subsequently reflected in their "Power" rankings (KRACH, Pairwise, etc., etc.).

No matter the outcome of these clairifications, I think this has provided an opportunity to speak about the "value" of any rankings, computer or otherwise, and what their interpretation and impact should be.

First, I think any ranking is an OPINION - no matter if it is done by computer (code or algorithm based) or human poll (voting), or even some combination of the two. In any case, the ranking is only as good as the data/facts and only has the meaning with which you give it based on your perception of the algorithm, voting quality, &/or definition of facts (game outcome/duration/etc.).

Second, any claim associated with any ranking is in actuality an opinion. In the case of the computer ranking, I've made the claim that it removes the human element by basing everything on a computer algorithm. We see that this algorithm breaks down early on without sufficient data. Human "voting" based rankings are far superior under such circumstances - and may so too be this way always. I have made the claim that the computer ranking can "more accurately measure the strength of a team." This is based on the computer not having any preconcieved bias to skew the game results we see.

Third, Note though too that the computer algorithm at this point can't look at a complete boxscore, facor in goal-differential, shot counts, penalties, etc. - and isn't as all-inclusive as it only looks at the final score. If a team is out-shot 100-1 but wins 1-0 the computer thinks the better team is the team that won. That is the bottom line. But, the computer - like humans - also know that "one game does not a season make." It factors in the entire schedule/results vs. just single-game head-to-head and you may well see a team ranked ahead of a team that beat them for this reason by the end of the season. A human ranker may not agree that this is right of course though and may instad heavily weigh what they "know" or "feel" about a team or even place much weight on one "head-to-head" game.


The best example to date of a complication of the computerized system is the Edina game. Technically, barring different info. from MSHSL or NCAA/Ranking people, it will go down as a 2-2 tie - but the fact of the matter is that Edina did score in the 2nd OT in the tourney format.

[xk1]

The determination of a winner is the responsibility of the Tournament director, they could have used a shootout and may very well have had it gone any longer. Do we want Tournamnet directors deciding the outcome method?

There were 3 ties in major games last night that will reflect on rankings, both for Krach and LPH. None of these teams was allowed another OT to determine the winner. I think this is the main reason they don't count them.

[ghshockeyfan]

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/Publications ... Hockey.htm

Specifically:

D. Overtime Periods in School-Sponsored Tournament Play: In case of a tie at the end of regular play during school sponsored tournament play the tie may be broken by the overtime tie breaking procedure as follows:

a. One 8-minute sudden death overtime period per MSHSL rules.
b. If still tied after 8-minutes: The Tournament Manager will conduct a shootout to determine the winner.

My understanding is that the game stands as a tie but the tie-breaker is used for determining advancement/place winner in school-sponsored tourney play.

NOTE: This distinctly differs from State Tournament/Playoff play:

1. Overtime Periods for the MSHSL State Tournament Play. In case of a tie at the end of regular play, follow procedure outline.

a. Teams must remain in the bench area.
b. 3-minute rest period, 8-minute sudden death overtime period, end shall not be changed.
c. Make ice and play 17-minute sudden death overtime period.
d. 3-minute rest period; 8-minute sudden death overtime period.
e. If tie remains, follow procedure as indicated in b and c above.

I would strongly suggest that teams/tournaments follow these guidelines moving forward.

[xk1]

So if I understand this correctly, the Edina officials should have gone directly to a shootout after the OT, per the guidelines. I think this was put in after the 8 OT (or whatever) game that occured several years ago in order to prevent this from happening again.

[ghshockeyfan]

So if I understand this correctly, the Edina officials should have gone directly to a shootout after the OT, per the guidelines. I think this was put in after the 8 OT (or whatever) game that occured several years ago in order to prevent this from happening again.

A few years ago I coached a Kennedy team that went to OT due to some stellar goaltending (Westberg) against Hopkins in one of the top division Schwan's Cup games that were then played at Ridder/Mariucci Arena. That was when I found out how OT tourney games were recorded/decided. One OT period - game coutned as tie then, but we won it in OT SO from what I recall (Stoa/Feste/Ludwigson I believe scored) - but the game went down as a 1-1 tie by MSHSL rules:

http://startribune.sportshuddle.com/Fan ... 1E50481%7d

As a side note, Westberg played so well in this tourney that she was named all-tourney from what I can recall - and there were some very good names on that list... This was my last year at Kennedy with 8 8th graders & 7 9th graders on the roster the team did very well all things considered...

[ghshockeyfan]

I've noted the Edina/Shak game as follows:

Edina - Cake Eater ***Edina 3-2 2OT

[hockeybuff]

Take it easy cluelessinminnesota. Who new cake-eaters were so sensitive!

[cluelessinminnesota]

Its due to high blood sugars from eating too much cake.

[hockeydad]

NM

[Slicker]