Baseball HOF

[Neutron 14]

I think both Gwynn and Ripkin are no brainers. As for McGwire... absolutely not. I understand he hasn't been convicted of anything, and his name belongs on the ballot. But to keep what shred of dignity we have left in sports, zero votes would be the message to send. Let Bonds and Sosa know whats in store for them too.

I think Andre Dawson should be in also.

Vote Bert in as a F#$@ing broadcaster....

[packerboy]

Mac should get voted in. He deserves it.

So does everybody else who took steroids before they banned them.

Yours truly,
Hans and Franz

[Neutron 14]

Bullcookies. In 1967 the International Olympic Council banned the use of anabolic steroids and by the mid 1970´s most major sporting organizations had also banned them. Because baseball owners were unable to include a ban in the collective bargaining agreement should not make it "ok" for baseball athletes to use performance enhancing drugs. Their use should not be rewarded.

[packerboy]

Well if you want to take away his Olympic medals you would be right on.

But the notion of punishing some guy who didn't violate any rules just because you think he shouldn't have done something should be resisited.

He was a great player and ought to be rewarded for that.

And we want to pump....you up.

[Blue Breeze]

I have to agree with packerboy on this one. Until he is proven guilty, which will likely be never, you can't assume guilt. And if you take away the assumption of guilt, he is a sure-fire HOF'er. The Hall of Fame isn't without guys who cheated (Gaylord Perry) so denying Big Mac would be hypocritical. I do not think he gets it though, as so many voters are going to assume he was dirty.

[goldy313]

He did get caught with Andro, which was "legal"in baseball but was not prescribed to him. Jose Canseco has said he did steroids with McGwire, but I in general I don't put a lot of stock in anything Canseco says. Then you have his testimony to Congress and his complete disappearance from baseball since. The circumstantial evidence against him is overwhelming, but it is just that, circumstantial.

I think Big Mac is a Hall of Famer, but because of all the above mentioned not a first ballot guy like Ripken or Gywnn.

Pete Rose was initially kicked out of baseball and kept out of the Hall of Fame on suspicion, heresay, and circumstanial evidence alone. So there is precidence for not electing McGwyer.

[EREmpireStrikesBack]

I just don't see him getting in with the other guys on the ballot. He looks sooooooo bad compared to them.

Btw, when will (if ever) Bert & TonyO get in?

[packerboy]

Big Mac will not get in based on what I have been hearing. I think that is too bad.

Comparing him with Rose is way out of line.
Rose is banned from baseball. Mac hasnt even been charged with anything.

Its wrong to take steroids but it was not illegal at the time. He did not violate any rules that I am aware of.

[EREmpireStrikesBack]

There are laws against using it...

[Neutron 14]

From Hall of Fame Website.

Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

Its not just about numbers.

[packerboy]

Is trying to make yourself better, with someting that was not banned, contrary to any of those things?

If he had 3 DUIs and no suspicion of steroid use, would you vote him in?

I am not comfortable about denying someone an honor like the HOF based on subjective opinions , valid as they might be, about that person's behavior.

[Neutron 14]

Except for the players record, which of the other criteria isn't subjective?

[packerboy]

Its all subjective, even the numbers can be spun. ( Oh heck, I would have had 40 HRs and 130RBI if I had so and so hitting behind me and ahead of me and blah blah blah)


But to say some one lacks character and integrity because they took a substance to better themselves that was not banned by the organization in which he was a player, is to put personal opinions and belief systems ahead of analysis of the information.

Would it be OK for him to be denied if he cheated on his wife(ves)? To some writers yes and some no depending on their belief systems. It shouldnt depend on that.

[Neutron 14]

To some writers yes and some no depending on their belief systems. It shouldnt depend on that.

Steroids are drugs, not supplemental vitamins. While not illegal in his sport he knew it was wrong to take them, which is why he refused to answer at the congressional hearings. Its pure coincidence that he retires the first year that they're illegal.

Is this a moral judgment? Of course it is. Should we ignore it? I can't. And I won't blame the voters if they can't either.

[goldy313]

Comparing him with Rose is way out of line.
Rose is banned from baseball. Mac hasnt even been charged with anything.

Its wrong to take steroids but it was not illegal at the time. He did not violate any rules that I am aware of.

Pete Rose was banned from baseball on heresay evidence from a less than reputable source, a guy in prison for bookmaking. In 1989 after 3 years of retirement he was banned from baseball amidst accusations that he gambled on baseball games. Rose freely admitted to betting on football games and at the track, but denied betting on baseball. The Dowd report, among others, came forth with accusatitions that Rose bet on at least 52 Reds games, but again there was no proof, or at least any that would hold up in court. The only crime Rose was ever charged with is tax evasion related to autograph and memorabilia sales, not interstae wire transfers, or anyother crime associated with illegal gambling. Finally in 2004 Rose admitted to betting on baseball and Reds games in which he managed, but only for the Reds.

It's relevent to McGwyer in this way, Rose was denied induction into the HOF because of suspicion he did something illegal, which it turned out he did, waiting was wise as the truth, as it always does, eventually comes out. Steroids, without a prescription, have been illegal in the US since at least the mid '80's, there is sufficient circumstantial evidence to to say that McGwyer probably used steroids, at least 2 former major leaguers have accused him of using steroids. Not enough to hold up in court, but enough to keep him out of the Hall of Fame for at least a while.

Just because steroids were not on the banned list of substances in the MLB collective bargaining agreement doesn't make them legal. Cocaine, heroin, and other drugs weren't on the list either but getting caught with them is still a crime, just like steroids.

[packerboy]

Using your example: Would you vote against him if he was busted with some cocaine?

[goldy313]

If he used it to gain a competitve advantage, yes.

I think McGwyer is a Hall of Famer, just not a first ballott guy.

[packerboy]

How many guys who are in the HOF right now did cocaine in the 80's like 'everybody' else did do you suppose?

[Zamboni Guy]

I think Big Mac is a Hall of Famer, but because of all the above mentioned not a first ballot guy like Ripken or Gywnn.

That brings up a whole other issue, how is someone not a Hall of Famer in one year but is later on? How can a writer vote for a player in one year, but not in another, "because so-and-so is a first ballot guy." How is Bruce Sutter a Hall of Famer now but wasn't in the many years before his election? The whole Hall of Fame voting process is fairly flawed and many writers use this as a forum for spouting off about their moral righteousness. How many people really think that Ty Cobb was a the epitome of morality? And yet, how many people Ty Cobb's place in the Hall of Fame?

[TheSwish]

In terms of McGwire making it into the Hall of Fame, let’s set aside for a moment all the scandals clouding around him. Is he an All Around baseball player that the Hall of Fame may be looking for? I say not.

McGwire was a guy who would go 1 for 4 with one home run in the 8th inning in a 6 run game. He was far from special in the field, and obviously the least bit scary on the base paths. I understand that while saying he must obtain all of the above to get in not only is unfair, but unlikely in itself, but still, if you take away the long ball, what else is there to Mac?

He finished his career with a less-than-flattering .264 Batting Average accompanied by a cool 1600 Strike Outs.

I'm sure there are plenty of Hall of Famer's with similar Home Run anchored stats, but then of course, I can't help but to refer back to the scandals that seem to be plaguing McGwire. Is he a guy that we want in the baseball Hall of Fame? - Getting the nod along with pure players such as Ripken and Gwynn?

[Blue Breeze]

The strongest argument I can make for McGwire, take away his numbers, is the way his HR title chase brought baseball back after the strike of '94. Was it tainted? Perhaps, but the Hall of Fame generally embraces those who performed a great feat for baseball, and McGwire's chase at the time was truly something of epic proportions for baseball.

[packerboy]

I agree with Blue Breeze on that. His numbers put him in. He has 583 HRs and is in the top ten all time. That alone ought to put him in.

The 70 HR season should make it a no brainer.

Note this though: He has 10 more than Killebrew and it took Harmon about 3 times to get in.

[Knowlzee]

.....its about baseball. Shouldn't what they do on the baseball field be what they are judged upon. McGwire and Pete Rose should both be in there, most HRs and most Hits. If they aren't in the HOF, may as well lock the hall door.

Unfortunate, that McGwire chose to cheat, and Pete may not be the best example off the field. Are they the ONLY cheaters and poor examples in the HOF? I doubt it. The HOF pool is already tainted, which is unfortunate, but to expect that all athletes would be great people is unrealistic. And to make like their Daddy, and punish them by denying them an athletic acccomplishment that they have achieved on the field is nothing other than arrogance by those with the power to decide.

A better alternative would be to have the player's HOF plaque include the additional known information regarding steriod use, gambling, etc. People can take from it what they want. Lets quit pretending the game and its participates are pure and saintly, because they are not.

Now if it were the Citizenship HOF,......that's different.

[goldy313]

I think the baseball Hall of Fame is the best of any sport. Some years 3 get in, some years nobody gets in, unlike the NFL which has watered down its Hall of Fame bay allowing in 4 or 5 every year. Getting in on the first ballott is hallowed ground and other than the first year only 32 players have been inducted on their first year of eligibility. McGwyer, steroids or not, in my opinion isn't a first ballott guy, and with the cloud of steroids hanging over him,it sounds like he's got no shot at getting in this year.

An interesting aside is election to the Hall of Fame hung over Pete Rose so badly that he finally admitted to betting on baseball in 2004 in hopes of being elected in his final year of eligibility. Are the baseball writers saying to McGwyer, come clean and you have a chance, otherwise you'll have to wait 15 years for the veterns committee.