Section 4AA 2007-8

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:14 am

Who will win Section 4AA 2007-8?

Cretin-Derham Hall
Hill-Murray
Minneapolis Novas
North St. Paul
Roseville
St. Paul Blades
Stillwater
Tartan
White Bear Lake

Bensonmum · Post by **Bensonmum** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:13 am

Now that EP, Edina, BSM, Wayzata and Hopkins have been scattered into 3 different sections, this new 4AA looks like the toughest out there. Should we start whining right now about how Roseville, Stillwater, Cretin and Hill-Murray all deserve to go to state and we're getting screwed over by having weaker teams and thus a weaker tournament at state?

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:19 am

Bensonmum wrote:Now that EP, Edina, BSM, Wayzata and Hopkins have been scattered into 3 different sections, this new 4AA looks like the toughest out there. Should we start whining right now about how Roseville, Stillwater, Cretin and Hill-Murray all deserve to go to state and we're getting screwed over by having weaker teams and thus a weaker tournament at state?

The new Section 4AA only has two teams ranked in the final LPH poll. Granted they are both very good teams but if anyone should whine it's those in 2AA - with EP, Edina and AHA they will have three very excellent teams and this section will be the toughest.

Stillh2ofan · Post by **Stillh2ofan** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:22 am

Here we go again. :lol:Funny but none of those three made the state
tournament.

gopher25 · Post by **gopher25** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:33 am

I think the sections look as they should. They are similar to the boys sections. I do not understand the Cretin in section 4AA I think they should be down with Hastings and Park. Oh well. If a team is going to win a state tournament they need to come out of their section first.

I am kind of sad to see Roseville and Stillwater in the same section in girls hockey as their youth programs have been stellar over the past 7 years, but their section games should be fun! Hill Murray is going to be strong in the future with all of the young talent they will be getting from WBL, woodbury and Stillwater in the next couple of years.

allhoc11 · Post by **allhoc11** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:34 am

Stillh2ofan wrote:Here we go again. :lol:Funny but none of those three made the state
tournament.

If making the state tournament was the bar we use than I'm glad my favorite team didn't get put in the same section with Mayo & Alex because those two are the best teams in the state as they always make the state tournament.

Melvin44 · Post by **Melvin44** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:15 pm

Who decides this? No one with common sense would put Roseville, Stillwater, Cretin, Hill and not to mention WBL who returns 10 Seniors and 2 goalies and also NSP who will be much better.

I see 4 or 5 top 20 teams in this section. I also believe will will see 1 or 2 below 30 rated teams in next years tourney.

We're moving to Bemidji, Section 1 or 3AA or O/E.

That last part is a Joke.

hockeywild7 · Post by **hockeywild7** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:26 pm

I agree, not sure why Cretin gets put in section 4AA. But thats the way it goes. Should be interesting to see the 2 privates try to battle out of this section as Stillwater, White Bear and Roseville have strong youth programs. And I havent seen much of their young talent leaving to go to Hill-Murray. These schools have been able to keep their talent because of successful programs. For hockey purposes , their is no reason to leave as these programs have very bright futures. Stillwaters success will just add to these youth players wanting to be a part of the program not leaving it.

gopher25 · Post by **gopher25** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:57 pm

From what I have heard, which is just hearsay. Hill is getting the Brandt sisters from WBL, Hannah is the consensus best player in the state at the U14 "A" level and her sister would probably be ranked in the top 10. They both attend private school already for grade school. They are also getting some top notch players from WBL who aren' too happy with the direction of the HS program the past few years. The have a goalie enrolled there that played Boys bantams for Woodbury this past year and is pretty good, also have a few kids from stillwater who attend the private school in Stillwater and want to continue catholic Education, really not a hockey based decision. From what I have seen from the stillwater team it looks like they will be able to afford a few losses after looking at their roster of mostly 9th-10th graders right now. Not a lot of room to make that team in the near future.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:16 pm

gopher25 wrote:From what I have heard, which is just hearsay. Hill is getting the Brandt sisters from WBL, Hannah is the consensus best player in the state at the U14 "A" level and her sister would probably be ranked in the top 10. They both attend private school already for grade school. They are also getting some top notch players from WBL who aren' too happy with the direction of the HS program the past few years. The have a goalie enrolled there that played Boys bantams for Woodbury this past year and is pretty good, also have a few kids from stillwater who attend the private school in Stillwater and want to continue catholic Education, really not a hockey based decision. From what I have seen from the stillwater team it looks like they will be able to afford a few losses after looking at their roster of mostly 9th-10th graders right now. Not a lot of room to make that team in the near future.

WOW - sounds like Hill has a nice youth movement about to happen. They may have one of the best couple HS incoming classes that I've seen. Many of these kids played against my top youth players these past few years and I've heard a lot about these players. Should be a good thing for the Classic Sub conf. after a couple of down years as a conf.

hockeygod · Post by **hockeygod** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:38 pm

Hill could have the russian national team show up and they still couldn't get out og the sectional quarter finals

hockeyfan#4 · Post by **hockeyfan#4** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:10 pm

MNHockeyFan wrote:
Bensonmum wrote:Now that EP, Edina, BSM, Wayzata and Hopkins have been scattered into 3 different sections, this new 4AA looks like the toughest out there. Should we start whining right now about how Roseville, Stillwater, Cretin and Hill-Murray all deserve to go to state and we're getting screwed over by having weaker teams and thus a weaker tournament at state?
The new Section 4AA only has two teams ranked in the final LPH poll. Granted they are both very good teams but if anyone should whine it's those in 2AA - with EP, Edina and AHA they will have three very excellent teams and this section will be the toughest.

I agree section 2AA is the toughest section because of LPH poll and for that reason only. They have proven their ability to be tough by not making it out of sections. Good Call!!!

hockeyfan#4 · Post by **hockeyfan#4** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:21 pm

MNHockeyFan wrote:
Bensonmum wrote:Now that EP, Edina, BSM, Wayzata and Hopkins have been scattered into 3 different sections, this new 4AA looks like the toughest out there. Should we start whining right now about how Roseville, Stillwater, Cretin and Hill-Murray all deserve to go to state and we're getting screwed over by having weaker teams and thus a weaker tournament at state?
The new Section 4AA only has two teams ranked in the final LPH poll. Granted they are both very good teams but if anyone should whine it's those in 2AA - with EP, Edina and AHA they will have three very excellent teams and this section will be the toughest.

What would it take for Roseville and Stillwater to move from very good teams to very excellent teams. Lose in sections??? That's another objective way of rating a team! Excellent Call!!!

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:32 pm

hockeyfan#4 wrote:What would it take for Roseville and Stillwater to move from very good teams to very excellent teams. Lose in sections??? That's another objective way of rating a team! Excellent Call!!!

OK, let me rephrase what I said, 4AA has two very excellent teams in Roseville and Stillwater. And this applies especially to Stillwater, which obviously won the state tournament and deserved to win it. But by any objective measure, whether it be LPH, KRACH or QRF, the new Section 2AA will have THREE very excellent teams, if you define "excellent" as finishing in the Top 10 in the State vs. Section 4AA's two teams. You need to look at the whole season - not just how a team did in sections or the state tournament - to define things. Even though Roseville lost two out of three games in the tournament, they were obviously still an excellent team this year. They could have just as easily played a sub-par game in sections, but they would still be an excellent team.

But I suppose by your subjective measure, which apparently takes just one game into account, Eden Prairie, Edina and Holy Angels are not excellent teams, because they didn't win their sections (even though I think all of them had better records than either Roseville or Stillwater). Any of these teams, had they not lost their section games, could have done very well at state.

Remember that next year just one team will make it out of Section 2AA, and if it doesn't happen to be "your team" it does not necessarily mean they are a bad team - they could still even be called an excellent team depending on how they did over the entire season.

titleist · Post by **titleist** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:54 pm

Can I first just say that LPH makes no sense at all. Why is there a state tournament at all if the final standings don't shake out the way the tournament ends up? How is North Metro 6th? They beat 3rd place Benilde. Did that game not count? How about 2nd ranked Eden Prairie and 4th place Edina. I didn't see them in the tourney. Oh, thats right, they were knocked out by 3rd place Benilde. I guess I can understand 5th place down through 8th place as being pick-able per se about rankings due to the section toughness, but 1-4 seem to be pretty clear cut, even 1-3 for that matter. Give the teams the respect that they deserve and earned for making it to the state tournament. I don't care how good teams were during the year. That's why your teams need to be hot at the end of the year, not the beginning or the middle of it. Its who finishes the race, not who ran in it. You make the case of Roseville being a good team. I saw them play. They had everything but goaltending. Stillwater, they were a team that nobody knew about except for those in the the Suburban East. They all knew how good they were. White Bear will be an excellent team next year, and so will Cretin. Based on the games I saw this year, with the kids coming back, 4AA will be a much tougher section than 2AA to get out of next year. Granted it's speculation now, but Stillwater is only losing goaltending, everything else is coming back. White Bear has one of the best goalies coming back with a great supporting cast in front of her. Cretin is going to be solid and Roseville will be losing Cody, their 50 point getter.[/quote]

rwb1351 · Post by **rwb1351** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:04 pm

titleist wrote:Can I first just say that LPH makes no sense at all. Why is there a state tournament at all if the final standings don't shake out the way the tournament ends up? How is North Metro 6th? They beat 3rd place Benilde. Did that game not count? How about 2nd ranked Eden Prairie and 4th place Edina. I didn't see them in the tourney. Oh, thats right, they were knocked out by 3rd place Benilde. I guess I can understand 5th place down through 8th place as being pick-able per se about rankings due to the section toughness, but 1-4 seem to be pretty clear cut, even 1-3 for that matter. Give the teams the respect that they deserve and earned for making it to the state tournament. I don't care how good teams were during the year. That's why your teams need to be hot at the end of the year, not the beginning or the middle of it. Its who finishes the race, not who ran in it. You make the case of Roseville being a good team. I saw them play. They had everything but goaltending. Stillwater, they were a team that nobody knew about except for those in the the Suburban East. They all knew how good they were. White Bear will be an excellent team next year, and so will Cretin. Based on the games I saw this year, with the kids coming back, 4AA will be a much tougher section than 2AA to get out of next year. Granted it's speculation now, but Stillwater is only losing goaltending, everything else is coming back. White Bear has one of the best goalies coming back with a great supporting cast in front of her. Cretin is going to be solid and Roseville will be losing Cody, their 50 point getter.

[/quote]

I understand your argument but the reality of the situation is that many of the teams that didn't make it to the state tournement this year were clearly better than those that were there. Yes, those teams did make it in the end, but with unbalanced talent-heavy sections and non-seeded tournament brackets it is impossible to ensure that truely the best 8 teams end up in any sort of legitimate order at the end of the tournament.

Bensonmum · Post by **Bensonmum** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:22 pm

rwb1351 wrote:

...the reality of the situation is that many of the teams that didn't make it to the state tournement this year were clearly better than those that were there.

'Clearly better' according to whom? Are you kidding? Am I missing something? Clearly, EP is not as good as Wayzata, since Wayzata beat them in the sectionals. And Edina is clearly not as good as BSM. And clearly, BSM is not as good as North Metro. And clearly, North Metro is not as good as Stillwater. Clearly...I'll never understand the thinking of some people who believe that what goes on in their own gigantic brains is more important than what happens on the ice.

gopher9 · Post by **gopher9** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:24 pm

Bensonmum wrote:rwb1351 wrote:

...the reality of the situation is that many of the teams that didn't make it to the state tournement this year were clearly better than those that were there.
'Clearly better' according to whom? Are you kidding? Am I missing something? Clearly, EP is not as good as Wayzata, since Wayzata beat them in the sectionals. And Edina is clearly not as good as BSM. And clearly, BSM is not as good as North Metro. And clearly, North Metro is not as good as Stillwater. Clearly...I'll never understand the thinking of some people who believe that what goes on in their own gigantic brains is more important than what happens on the ice.

Then CLEARLY E.P. is better than Stillwater since they beat them in the regular season. Look at the big picture _ _ _ _ for brains!

Bensonmum · Post by **Bensonmum** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:39 pm

OK gopher, why don't you tell us all who is clearly the best team in the state. And then tell us who is clearly the 2nd best team, etc. Then we clearly don't have to bother with the state tournament.

rwb1351 · Post by **rwb1351** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:50 pm

sorry about my misplaced adverb. Funny how adult can blow things so out of proportion.

You are correct, what happens on the ice is what counts. As a player I know that. But as gopher said, EP beat all the team it faced until the playoffs.

Yes, playoffs are what matters and ultimatley those last 6 wins are what determines your "place" but rankings should be based on whole season performances.
If everything was based on the playoffs then Ms. Hockey (w/ the exception of this year), as well as Ms. Goalie, would often be inaccurate.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:55 pm

Folks, please remember just because Team A beats Team B in a single game it does not automatically make Team A a "better" team, just a better team on that given night. Think about it, if Eden Prairie, Edina or BSM were to play North Metro in a 5 game series starting tomorrow, would you bet a lot of your own money that North Metro would win at least three of these games against each of these teams? If you argue that North Metro should be ranked No. 2 in the state because they came in second place at the Tourney, then you would have to say "yes" you would bet a lot of your own money on them. Why wouldn't you, if they truly are "better" and they would have five games against each of these teams to prove it?

LPH makes a reasonable effort to reward the teams that did well at State. On the basis of their strong performance at the end of the season, they moved North Metro up from something like No. 20 to No. 6. But you can't base the final ranking on just a game or two at the end of the season, that should be pretty obvious. Kind of reminds me of last year when the Holy Cross mens' team (#16 seed) beating the Gophers (#1 seed). If someone were to tell me that Holy Cross had a better hockey team on the basis of that one win, I would have questioned their logic too. In a single-elimination format, upsets happen all of the time.

rwb1351 · Post by **rwb1351** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:25 pm

MNHockeyFan wrote:Folks, please remember just because Team A beats Team B in a single game it does not automatically make Team A a "better" team, just a better team on that given night. Think about it, if Eden Prairie, Edina or BSM were to play North Metro in a 5 game series starting tomorrow, would you bet a lot of your own money that North Metro would win at least three of these games against each of these teams? If you argue that North Metro should be ranked No. 2 in the state because they came in second place at the Tourney, then you would have to say "yes" you would bet a lot of your own money on them. Why wouldn't you, if they truly are "better" and they would have five games against each of these teams to prove it?

LPH makes a reasonable effort to reward the teams that did well at State. On the basis of their strong performance at the end of the season, they moved North Metro up from something like No. 20 to No. 6. But you can't base the final ranking on just a game or two at the end of the season, that should be pretty obvious. Kind of reminds me of last year when the Holy Cross mens' team (#16 seed) beating the Gophers (#1 seed). If someone were to tell me that Holy Cross had a better hockey team on the basis of that one win, I would have questioned their logic too. In a single-elimination format, upsets happen all of the time.

well said.

gopher9 · Post by **gopher9** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:26 pm

Bensonmum wrote:OK gopher, why don't you tell us all who is clearly the best team in the state. And then tell us who is clearly the 2nd best team, etc. Then we clearly don't have to bother with the state tournament.

Then why bother with the regular season then to!!! I guess if you go 26-0 that doesnt mean anything either?Even though Stillwater won the state tournament I dont think clearly they were the best team in the state! Im willing to bet that there were 3-4 teams better than them! But not CLEARLY better than them. So I am not sure who clearly is the best team in the state? You tell me.

Melvin44 · Post by **Melvin44** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:36 pm

Stillwater won the State Tournament period! Let them enjoy it!

There were a lot of great teams in Minnesota this year and yes anyone can beat anyone on a given night. Look at the regular season and sections!

Just appreciate great girls hockey and the fact that there were many awesome games this year. Don't dwell so much on who is the best but how far girls hockey has come. Just a few years ago it was who ever had the best player in the state won. Now it's who has the best team players/desire and who wants it the most and of course a little luck!

Stillwater is the team everyone will remember and EP is the team everyone remembers from last year.

Sorry if to many !!!! I'm not very good at this chat thing!

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:15 pm

Melvin44 wrote:Stillwater won the State Tournament period! Let them enjoy it!

There were a lot of great teams in Minnesota this year and yes anyone can beat anyone on a given night. Look at the regular season and sections!

Just appreciate great girls hockey and the fact that there were many awesome games this year. Don't dwell so much on who is the best but how far girls hockey has come. Just a few years ago it was who ever had the best player in the state won. Now it's who has the best team players/desire and who wants it the most and of course a little luck!

Stillwater is the team everyone will remember and EP is the team everyone remembers from last year.

Sorry if to many !!!! I'm not very good at this chat thing!

You did great, and your points are valid! I would only add that people will remember EP too, for having won so many games (57?) in a row before going down at end of the this year.

As you say the quality and balance of girls' hockey has greatly improved so much, and I think it will be a long time before any team puts together this kind of a winning streak again.