Class System

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:35 pm

I know I have commented on it a number of times, probably an annoying amount of times in different threads, but never received a direct response to my comments.

My history may be a little off: They had one class, then tried a tier system and say that didn't work, then they turned it into a class system, just like other sports. Now that we have a class system, which is based on school size, and size alone. Then we allow teams to opt up, as if saying that size has anything to do with talent. In a class system, why are teams allowed to opt up?

There are plenty of good teams currently in class A that are competitive with current class AA teams. There are also plenty of teams in class AA that are competitive in AA but by size are A schools. Why not just not allow them to opt up and have two very competitive, and almost equal tournaments? (like 3A & 4A basketball, 4A & 5A football, and others)

Blue Breeze · Post by **Blue Breeze** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:38 pm

If they want to compete with the best, they should be allowed to do so. The size limits help schools to remain competitive, but if teams want to play up why stop them from doing so? You're basically stopping teams from trying to excel and compete amongst the best. Teams like Roseau, who is an elite AA program would be stuck playing lower competition and not given a shot at the highest championship possible.

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:53 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:I know I have commented on it a number of times, probably an annoying amount of times in different threads, but never received a direct response to my comments.

I personally can't think of another poster that gets more responses to his posts than you mathrunner. Your issue is that you never get a response that agrees with you, so you choose to ignore the post. You've already biased the poll by the way you've asked the question.

Its a modern fact of life that STA won't get many peoples resect because they play Class A. Live with it.

Basketball? Hockeys different.

RamFan2010! · Post by **RamFan2010!** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:53 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:I know I have commented on it a number of times, probably an annoying amount of times in different threads, but never received a direct response to my comments.

My history may be a little off: They had one class, then tried a tier system and say that didn't work, then they turned it into a class system, just like other sports. Now that we have a class system, which is based on school size, and size alone. Then we allow teams to opt up, as if saying that size has anything to do with talent. In a class system, why are teams allowed to opt up?

There are plenty of good teams currently in class A that are competitive with current class AA teams. There are also plenty of teams in class AA that are competitive in AA but by size are A schools. Why not just not allow them to opt up and have two very competitive, and almost equal tournaments? (like 3A & 4A basketball, 4A & 5A football, and others)

That would be a bad idea.... I dont think the Single A teams enjoy getting smoked by ROseau and other top dogs of the AA class. It wouldnt make hockey any fun for the small schools with developing programs, it works the way it is so leave it that way! not to be arrogant, but we won by at least 2 against every single A team we played this year ( with few exceptions), I sure wouldnt want to play teams like Moorhead, Roseau, GR every game and have them win state every year... that would definitely not be fun!!

Doug Mackenzie · Post by **Doug Mackenzie** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:02 pm

I agree with blue breeze. If a small school feels they can hang with the big boys let them try. These types of games are what the tourney was built upon. These traditions are what make the tourney special. They've been around since long before you, or I, or this message board. And hopefully they will stay that way for the near future.

Things change, I know, that's natural. But I don't see the need to overhaul a system that is not broken.

Could it be tweaked? Maybe a little. But are we really going to tell teams that helped build the tourney into what it is (Roseau, Grand Rapids etc) that they are no longer welcome?

note: when I say "the tourney", I'm referring to the AA tournament

Also, there is a huge difference between class 4A and class 5A football.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:17 pm

Neutron, you have always had this idea that saying something to someone after they have said something is the same as responding to what they say. If I make a comment and someone either tells me to shut up or just says something totally different, that isn't responding.
Again, you add to a point I've made in the past. People say things about me talking about St Thomas, and here you are bringing them up.

Back to the topic. Yes, hockey is different. They are different in that size has nothing to do with talent. We all know that.

RamFan2010, the smaller, developing schools don't need to play these teams, they wouldn't be in state, so they aren't in question.

How are my questions leaning any way? They are what they are. Having teams not opt up (like all other sports) would make the class A tourny so much better, while having them not opt up is making it a semi-tier, semi-class system. The good teams can opt up, but bad teams can't opt down, hmmm.

George Blanda · Post by **George Blanda** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:18 pm

RamFan2010! wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:I know I have commented on it a number of times, probably an annoying amount of times in different threads, but never received a direct response to my comments.

My history may be a little off: They had one class, then tried a tier system and say that didn't work, then they turned it into a class system, just like other sports. Now that we have a class system, which is based on school size, and size alone. Then we allow teams to opt up, as if saying that size has anything to do with talent. In a class system, why are teams allowed to opt up?

There are plenty of good teams currently in class A that are competitive with current class AA teams. There are also plenty of teams in class AA that are competitive in AA but by size are A schools. Why not just not allow them to opt up and have two very competitive, and almost equal tournaments? (like 3A & 4A basketball, 4A & 5A football, and others)
That would be a bad idea.... I dont think the Single A teams enjoy getting smoked by ROseau and other top dogs of the AA class. It wouldnt make hockey any fun for the small schools with developing programs, it works the way it is so leave it that way! not to be arrogant, but we won by at least 2 against every single A team we played this year ( with few exceptions), I sure wouldnt want to play teams like Moorhead, Roseau, GR every game and have them win state every year... that would definitely not be fun!!

well, DM had just beaten Century and Rapids before the tourney. I think this year especially with all of the upsets, the top four in the Class A tourney could have finished with the top dogs in Class AA. They definitely wouldn't have gotten smoked.

Blue Breeze · Post by **Blue Breeze** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:22 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:Neutron, you have always had this idea that saying something to someone after they have said something is the same as responding to what they say. If I make a comment and someone either tells me to shut up or just says something totally different, that isn't responding.
Again, you add to a point I've made in the past. People say things about me talking about St Thomas, and here you are bringing them up.

Back to the topic. Yes, hockey is different. They are different in that size has nothing to do with talent. We all know that.

RamFan2010, the smaller, developing schools don't need to play these teams, they wouldn't be in state, so they aren't in question.

How are my questions leaning any way? They are what they are. Having teams not opt up (like all other sports) would make the class A tourny so much better, while having them not opt up is making it a semi-tier, semi-class system. The good teams can opt up, but bad teams can't opt down, hmmm.

Minneapolis Henry opted up in basketball a few years ago, it's not a principle restricted to hockey. And opting down is different that opting up. If you opt down, you're doing it so you can compete against people who are at an obvious disadvantage. Opting up just shows that you want to compete at the highest level no matter the circumstances surrounding your situation.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:25 pm

There's that. And then look at the new sections. MSHSL doesn't care what people WANT. They are doing what they think is right. Aside from your opinions on how it affects hockey and the "hockey's different" excuses, why would they have a class system and let them switch? It doesn't make sense.

As far as getting respect, it's been said by different people on here that the top class A teams do have respect and most are just being rude to be rude on here. Just like in all other sports being in a lower class isn't a call for disrespect. Giving a good team disrespect is just a reflection on the person/group of people giving it.

Doug Mackenzie · Post by **Doug Mackenzie** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:28 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote: Having teams not opt up (like all other sports) would make the class A tourny so much better, while having them not opt up is making it a semi-tier, semi-class system. The good teams can opt up, but bad teams can't opt down, hmmm.

Cretin opts up in football. As do a few schools that are, by enrollment,
9-man, but opt to play A football.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:29 pm

"Minneapolis Henry opted up in basketball a few years ago, it's not a principle restricted to hockey. And opting down is different that opting up. If you opt down, you're doing it so you can compete against people who are at an obvious disadvantage. Opting up just shows that you want to compete at the highest level no matter the circumstances surrounding your situation."

You may be right, I thought you were, but on the minnnesota-scores forum I was informed that Henry's enrollment went up then down, which is why their class did. Makes sense because they have to be up for 4 years if they opt up, which they weren't. MPLS North, though, is the only team to opt up in (probably any) another sport. Pretty sure they were put up because of enrollment then when had the opportunity to go back down they chose to just stay where they were.

If teams can opt up, teams should be able to opt down. If there are class A teams that are "good enough" to compete with the "big dogs" there are probably (and there are) teams whose enrollment make them AA teams who can't even compete with many of the class A teams they play. But they aren't allowed to be down. Hmmm...

Blue Breeze · Post by **Blue Breeze** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:30 pm

I'm still not sure exactly what your argument is against teams opting up. Just because it would be a more even tournament? Hockey is a sport with a heck of a lot more balance across the board, and that is what helps teams move up. 4A teams would get smoked by 5A in football, and outside of the dominant Henry and Litchfield teams from a few years ago the same goes for 3A basketball against 4A basketball. The difference is not nearly as pronounced in hockey, which is why allowing these teams to opt up makes sense.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:33 pm

Don't even bring up Cretin. They opt up in EVERY sport because they think they are better than everyone else. Although this isn't a football forum, 9-man isn't a good example; if you talk to any football player "that's not football", so if you can play really football you will.

Back to hockey...

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:37 pm

Well, we can't know about 4A football teams playing 5A teams because it doesn't happen much, but when it does, they don't get smoked. Horrible example. Same with basketball. The top 3A teams would make state in any 4A section but 2 and 3 this year. But I'd prefer to leave analysis for another place.

My argument is that it doesn't make sense in a class system. And that's what it is. Not a tier system. That is the argument. Then there are other implications of it I have discussed.

Doug Mackenzie · Post by **Doug Mackenzie** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:38 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:Don't even bring up Cretin. They opt up in EVERY sport because they think they are better than everyone else. Although this isn't a football forum, 9-man isn't a good example; if you talk to any football player "that's not football", so if you can play really football you will.

Back to hockey...

My point was to show the flaw in your statement that other sports do not allow opt ups.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:41 pm

I'm not saying they don't allow it, but it doesn't happen. There are a handful in all of state of sports that have 500 teams, whereas in a sport with 153 teams there are quick a few more. Seems quite excessive.

Amazing how right after a thread is started it turns into something totally different and we're now talking about other sports.

Blue Breeze · Post by **Blue Breeze** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:46 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:Well, we can't know about 4A football teams playing 5A teams because it doesn't happen much, but when it does, they don't get smoked. Horrible example. Same with basketball. The top 3A teams would make state in any 4A section but 2 and 3 this year. But I'd prefer to leave analysis for another place.

My argument is that it doesn't make sense in a class system. And that's what it is. Not a tier system. That is the argument. Then there are other implications of it I have discussed.

If you don't think there's a noticeable difference between classes in football and basketball you're delusional.

And don't complain about the thread talking about other sports, because you brought that up yourself in the original post, so you really only have yourself to blame for drawing that parallel.

Doug Mackenzie · Post by **Doug Mackenzie** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:47 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:I'm not saying they don't allow it, but it doesn't happen. There are a handful in all of state of sports that have 500 teams, whereas in a sport with 153 teams there are quick a few more. Seems quite excessive.

Amazing how right after a thread is started it turns into something totally different and we're now talking about other sports.

So you didn't write this?

HShockeywatcher wrote: Why not just not allow them to opt up and have two very competitive, and almost equal tournaments? (like 3A & 4A basketball, 4A & 5A football, and others)

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:01 am

I did. I was referring to the "very competitive, and almost equal" part of what I said, not the not opting up part.

Sorry if that was misunderstood. My bad.

Doug Mackenzie · Post by **Doug Mackenzie** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:15 am

HShockeywatcher wrote:I did. I was referring to the "very competitive, and almost equal" part of what I said, not the not opting up part.

Sorry if that was misunderstood. My bad.

No problem. After all, it's just a message board.

Anyways.....like you said earlier...Back to hockey:

I guess for me, I just like the small school vs. big school match ups (even if they don'y happen every year)

Plus, like I said in an earlier post, I'd have a problem with someone telling Roseau and Grand Rapids they are no longer wanted in something they helped to build. ( The AA tournament)

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:46 am

HShockeywatcher wrote: How are my questions leaning any way? They are what they are. Having teams not opt up (like all other sports) would make the class A tourny so much better, while having them not opt up is making it a semi-tier, semi-class system. The good teams can opt up, but bad teams can't opt down, hmmm.

We do not in any way have a tier system. Bad teams cannot willingly, or be forced to move down. We have a class system period. We allow the strong A programs to opt up, so they can compete for the state title with the highest classification.

IMHO...

Obviously you do not have to have a large enrollment to have a strong hockey program. One of the ways hockey is different than in other sports, is you don't neccessarily need big or fast kids to be successful. Large schools have a distinct advantage in getting five 275lb linemen in football. They have this same advantage in providing the basketball team with multiple 6' 6" or taller players.

Now public schools "get what they get" insofar as kids. With the exception of transfers and OE, They are limited to kids who live in the school district. Enrollment based classification works well for these schools. Private schools have the ability to "create" a strong program. STA has done so, and have done it very well. When you actively go out and get the best hockey players you can, you defeat the purpose of what class A was meant to be. Class A was NOT created to be simply different than class AA. It was created for the "non-traditional hockey power" small school to have a chance at playing for a state title without having to compete with the mega-conglomerate-fat cat-suburan schools as packerboy so eloquently states. STA needs to move up for respect. To go out and create the great program they have, and then hide behind enrollment numbers to classify themselves as class A is cowardice.

I like private schools in high school hockey. I think their teams have raised the bar for all of our kids. Its been my experience that kids will work only as hard and long as it takes to succeed. Without Hill and AHA our kids simply wouldn't be as good as they are now.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:02 am

Wow. Taking a thread that has nothing to do with St Thomas and bringing them up. Isn't that my job?

Then you go and take this thread from it's original meaning and turn it into a public/private school thread.

How do you know exactly why the class system was created? If it was in fact created for the purposes you said wouldn't those teams that are "violating" what it was created for be forced to opt up?

It is a tier system because it is probably the only only sport where the bottom class is thought of as completely inferior the the class below it. What class you are in is supposed to just be a showing of how big your school is, not how good your program is. If that were true, Braham wouldn't be playing AA ball right now.

You say private schools get to recruit then you say public schools don't, with the exception of transfers and open enrollment. And somehow it's cowardice for being in the class that the organization in charge gave you to be in?

Until recently I have really liked your posts Neutron, but they are really starting to lose any logic at all.

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:14 pm

The whole premise of this thread is simple.

You wish to elevate your stature by holding others down.

And its pathetic.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:50 pm

Hockey really is a hybrid. It isnt supposed to be a tier system but when you have opt ups, it does take on the characteristics of a Tier.

I dont know whats going to happen in the future but if more successful privates opt up (like BSM for example), it could become even more like a tier.

As many have pointed out, its odd that our "big school' champ is smaller than our "small school" champ.

Teams have to be allowed to opt up for the reasons Blue Breeze stated.

Whether a team should opt up or not is up to them but I dont now how I could watch Roseau win the AA title and then think my A trophy was a real huge deal.

Can't Never Tried · Post by **Can't Never Tried** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:00 pm

That's why it would be fun to have one more game at the end an "All State Champion" AA vs A.
I know they will never do it, but I think it would be sweet.. and this years winners go to show, that it would in fact be a good game.
Both would still be class AA and A state champs, it would just be played like an All Star game... ya get bragging rights and that's about it.

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