Class System
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
I have not studied it, but it seems our single A schools do better thatn the 'true' AA schools in the 'AA' tournament.
Successful programs that I can recall,
Roeau and Rapids
and Cretin and Rapids....
Holy Angels, Duluth East... not sure if they were single A schools that opted up during the years they were at the tourney, but fairly sure they were or at least at the bottom of the double A group.
It seems that the question is do the AA want that kind of competition?
(That is a joke, for those that do not know).
The question:
"Is there any formula the MSHSL can use that would produce a class system?"
Not if they stay with their HS population based methodology.
And if went to youth hockey program numbers as a base, it may work better, but it would not be infallable. Youth hockey programs are the backbone to the HS programs. And it is difficult to measure the intangibles that create a good youth program. Then add private schools and OE in the mix, it becomes impossible to use a formula to define HS programs.
We have what we have.
And it seems to give us two great champions every year.
Being single A did not mean Hermantown did not have a great team.
Being single A did not mean Roseau did not have a great AA team.
Successful programs that I can recall,
Roeau and Rapids
and Cretin and Rapids....
Holy Angels, Duluth East... not sure if they were single A schools that opted up during the years they were at the tourney, but fairly sure they were or at least at the bottom of the double A group.
It seems that the question is do the AA want that kind of competition?
(That is a joke, for those that do not know).
The question:
"Is there any formula the MSHSL can use that would produce a class system?"
Not if they stay with their HS population based methodology.
And if went to youth hockey program numbers as a base, it may work better, but it would not be infallable. Youth hockey programs are the backbone to the HS programs. And it is difficult to measure the intangibles that create a good youth program. Then add private schools and OE in the mix, it becomes impossible to use a formula to define HS programs.
We have what we have.
And it seems to give us two great champions every year.
Being single A did not mean Hermantown did not have a great team.
Being single A did not mean Roseau did not have a great AA team.
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HShockeywatcher
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All you say is not arguable. Which is why I suggest putting teams in a class based on size and not allowing anyone to opt up.
Then we will get to see all the good A schools currently playing in AA play for the A trophy and all the good AA schools play for another trophy. Then both trophies are just as good as the other. Schools would only be based on size, not anything on talent.
Then we will get to see all the good A schools currently playing in AA play for the A trophy and all the good AA schools play for another trophy. Then both trophies are just as good as the other. Schools would only be based on size, not anything on talent.
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Blue Breeze
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This strikes me as a youth hockey theory where "everyone's a winner". That's not just the case. What do you have against small schools competing with the best? Roseau would have steamrolled through the A tournament just as they did the AA tournament, yet some people would claim they're not the best due to the fact that they won the small school title, which would be unfair to them.HShockeywatcher wrote:All you say is not arguable. Which is why I suggest putting teams in a class based on size and not allowing anyone to opt up.
Then we will get to see all the good A schools currently playing in AA play for the A trophy and all the good AA schools play for another trophy. Then both trophies are just as good as the other. Schools would only be based on size, not anything on talent.
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Can't Never Tried
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IDK??? don't ya think it's pretty good right now? I mean if ya want to play up you can, and if you have the #'s you just can't play down.. simple as that.
If you look at how things shook out the 2 teams, one unbeaten, and one with a great record won the titles in there classes it seems to work.
Next thing we'll hear is these little schools that train their kids so well are beating up on our big schools that haven't had the luxury of playing together as a group their whole lives.
I'm not sure what philosophy a team uses that if they are competetive and have been playing AA to opt to go back to A unless they are saying (Thinking) we can go to state against A schools so lets play down.
As we have all been saying here when you get to State the line in Classes becomes blurred as the competition level equals out.
If you look at how things shook out the 2 teams, one unbeaten, and one with a great record won the titles in there classes it seems to work.
Next thing we'll hear is these little schools that train their kids so well are beating up on our big schools that haven't had the luxury of playing together as a group their whole lives.
I'm not sure what philosophy a team uses that if they are competetive and have been playing AA to opt to go back to A unless they are saying (Thinking) we can go to state against A schools so lets play down.
As we have all been saying here when you get to State the line in Classes becomes blurred as the competition level equals out.
It is pretty good right now. I enjoy watching the AA tourney as much as ever and I also like tuning into A on Wed night and Sat afternoon.
Its very entertaining and I think good for hockey.
I think the way it is now beats anything else I have herad suggested.
But it does look a little goofy when you think about the way its set up.
Its very entertaining and I think good for hockey.
I think the way it is now beats anything else I have herad suggested.
But it does look a little goofy when you think about the way its set up.
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HShockeywatcher
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It's because one trophy isn't any better than any other. You think in 2005 the A champ wouldn't have probably gone 5 of 10 with the AA champ? We will never know, but they were probably about equal.
Yes, you are right, if only one team who has opted up were to go down, they would walk through, but if all the teams weren't able to opt up, it would be different. You really think Roseau would've walked through Holy Angels, East, and whoever else? Probably not.
I'm not at all saying everyone's a winner. This is all like saying there shouldn't be three divisions in college, which we all know is crazy.
Yes, you are right, if only one team who has opted up were to go down, they would walk through, but if all the teams weren't able to opt up, it would be different. You really think Roseau would've walked through Holy Angels, East, and whoever else? Probably not.
I'm not at all saying everyone's a winner. This is all like saying there shouldn't be three divisions in college, which we all know is crazy.
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Blue Breeze
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Really? I have a few consolation trophies from when I was younger that I would gladly trade in for a championship one. Trophies are different whether you choose to believe it or not. The experience is that much greater when you say you have reached the pinnacle of greatness of one sport. Would you rather have a Division 1 football championship or a Division 2 one? Not much of a choice.HShockeywatcher wrote:It's because one trophy isn't any better than any other.
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Irishmans Shanty
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I'm never opposed to more hockey. I love the quadruple header on the eve of AA day.Can't Never Tried wrote:That's why it would be fun to have one more game at the end an "All State Champion" AA vs A.
Having the A and AA champs playoff is like using a shootout to break a tie. You'll get a decision, but no real answer.
The best reason not to adopt your idea HS is that it would detract form the AA event.
I have been critical of the MSHSL in a lot of areas but one area they have been pretty good at is preserving the original AA tourney. It still starts on Thursday afternoon and ends on Sat night. All the championship round games are on TV, semis on Friday night etc, etc.
The A tourney does not interfere nor has it changed the AA tourney one iota( Mariucci aside). Many were concerned about them going the politcally correct route and having the A championship on Sat night every other year or other such nonsense. They havent done that.
You wouldnt even know there is an A tourney if you wanted to avoid it.
Your suggestion would take away teams who are traditionally part of the AA tournament. Many people who dont pay much attention during the year thought that this years event was great because of all the old traditional teams in the field.
HM, Roseau , GR and Dulutherans who have built up a lot of traditon and won titles would be gone forever.
It would be big Suburbs vs Moorhead.
No deal.
I have been critical of the MSHSL in a lot of areas but one area they have been pretty good at is preserving the original AA tourney. It still starts on Thursday afternoon and ends on Sat night. All the championship round games are on TV, semis on Friday night etc, etc.
The A tourney does not interfere nor has it changed the AA tourney one iota( Mariucci aside). Many were concerned about them going the politcally correct route and having the A championship on Sat night every other year or other such nonsense. They havent done that.
You wouldnt even know there is an A tourney if you wanted to avoid it.
Your suggestion would take away teams who are traditionally part of the AA tournament. Many people who dont pay much attention during the year thought that this years event was great because of all the old traditional teams in the field.
HM, Roseau , GR and Dulutherans who have built up a lot of traditon and won titles would be gone forever.
It would be big Suburbs vs Moorhead.
No deal.
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Can't Never Tried
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That's why I say it's just a bragging rights game, if you tried to make it into a true All State Championship then the crying "it's not fair" would come out if AA won consistantly.Irishmans Shanty wrote:I'm never opposed to more hockey. I love the quadruple header on the eve of AA day.Can't Never Tried wrote:That's why it would be fun to have one more game at the end an "All State Champion" AA vs A.
Having the A and AA champs playoff is like using a shootout to break a tie. You'll get a decision, but no real answer.
Yeah Logistcally I didn't think about when they would play...couldn't really expect to play another game the same day.
Maybe a neutral site in a different part of the state each year on the following Saturday?? IDK it's all just fun to think about, but will never happen.
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HShockeywatcher
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Blue Breeze, I wasn't saying any two trophies are comparable, I was saying the two championship trophies, but you knew that.
Packerboy, I see what you're saying, but that's not a hockey thing, that's a MSHSL thing, they give more priority to the top class in all sports because that is the class people who aren't season-long watchers watch usually.
One thing people fail to realize is that it's clearly not about talent to the MSHSL. If it were teams would be allowed to opt up for 1 year. But they are not. You keep bringing up reasons of why the people would care, not reasons that actually matter to the MSHSL. Just like how people want more better teams spread out between sections, but the MSHSL doesn't care.
Packerboy, I see what you're saying, but that's not a hockey thing, that's a MSHSL thing, they give more priority to the top class in all sports because that is the class people who aren't season-long watchers watch usually.
One thing people fail to realize is that it's clearly not about talent to the MSHSL. If it were teams would be allowed to opt up for 1 year. But they are not. You keep bringing up reasons of why the people would care, not reasons that actually matter to the MSHSL. Just like how people want more better teams spread out between sections, but the MSHSL doesn't care.
They have taken special care to preserve the AA event because it is a cash cow and because that was part of the deal when they went to 2 classes.
The AA tourney is one of the premier high school events in the country. Its been known nation wide for a long time. If they screwed it up by having 2 classes , people would go ape ship.
I think its a hockey people thing to preserve the AA event.
The AA tourney is one of the premier high school events in the country. Its been known nation wide for a long time. If they screwed it up by having 2 classes , people would go ape ship.
I think its a hockey people thing to preserve the AA event.
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Blue Breeze
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Yes I did, but the fact that saying these two championship trophies are the same isn't exactly true either. The AA trophy is going to hold a lot more prestige and be respected that much more due to the more difficult path it took to get there. Sure, there are A teams that can compete in AA, but they're not going to get that same respect as AA champion.HShockeywatcher wrote:Blue Breeze, I wasn't saying any two trophies are comparable, I was saying the two championship trophies, but you knew that.
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hockeyfan92621
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AA hockey should be the pinnacle of the sport, until a team like Edgerton wins the A title there is no argument. Since 1996 in A hockey every title has been won either a private metro school or a team with easy access to year around ice, the teams without those advantages haven't fared as well. Sme entire sections don't have year around ice.
Teams like Cretin and Roseau want to be at the pinnnacle of their sport and strive for that. Kids go there knowing that, grow up wanting that, and their communities want that as well.
You want teams and schools like that to compete at a lower level so the prestige of the lower level teams and tournament is higher. That, by the way, is exact argument Title IX uses to justify many things; everything must be equal. The MSHSL lets teams opt up so that those teams can be the best and compete against the best. They don't force them. You can't legislate fan interest, forcing all the teams that opt to play AA down doesn't make the A tournament anymore appealing. I and many don't care if the A field has Cloquet or Hermantown in it. It doesn't matter, however if the AA tournament has Cloquet instead of Elk River in it I do care.
STA and schools like that should be AA, nearly everyone agrees on that. They have every advantage, even over many AA schools. The demographic is condusive to hockey families and they have easy access to year around ice.
Teams like Cretin and Roseau want to be at the pinnnacle of their sport and strive for that. Kids go there knowing that, grow up wanting that, and their communities want that as well.
You want teams and schools like that to compete at a lower level so the prestige of the lower level teams and tournament is higher. That, by the way, is exact argument Title IX uses to justify many things; everything must be equal. The MSHSL lets teams opt up so that those teams can be the best and compete against the best. They don't force them. You can't legislate fan interest, forcing all the teams that opt to play AA down doesn't make the A tournament anymore appealing. I and many don't care if the A field has Cloquet or Hermantown in it. It doesn't matter, however if the AA tournament has Cloquet instead of Elk River in it I do care.
STA and schools like that should be AA, nearly everyone agrees on that. They have every advantage, even over many AA schools. The demographic is condusive to hockey families and they have easy access to year around ice.
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HShockeywatcher
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"STA and schools like"
Teams like what? Teams that had a horrible losing record a few years ago? Then we would barely have any teams in class A. Two years ago St Thomas won 4 games and in the 95-96 season Marshall was 0-22. No one was complaining about them then and no one is complaining about Providence Academy or Holy Family now. You need to be a little consistent on that. The only reason people want to see St Thomas move up is because people want to see them lose. Bottom line.
As has been said many times, these are kids and this should be about them, not the bigoted views of the majority of people out there.
Teams like what? Teams that had a horrible losing record a few years ago? Then we would barely have any teams in class A. Two years ago St Thomas won 4 games and in the 95-96 season Marshall was 0-22. No one was complaining about them then and no one is complaining about Providence Academy or Holy Family now. You need to be a little consistent on that. The only reason people want to see St Thomas move up is because people want to see them lose. Bottom line.
As has been said many times, these are kids and this should be about them, not the bigoted views of the majority of people out there.
Did you read anything I wrote? No. You like the fact STA and teams like that with all their advantages can beat up on teams that can only skate for 4 months a year. I don't care if Holy Family or Spring Lake Park goes 0-25. They should be AA schools.
This isn't football, basketball, or even tennis. All those sports anyone can play and work at. All you need is a gym or patch of grass and you can play. This is hockey and for 8-9 months out of the year ice isn't a naturally occuring substance around here. How is LaCrescent supposed to compete with Lourdes, Red Wing, and STA? They can't. All it takes for a program like STA to become a viable hockey power is for them to decide that they want to be one. There are 80+ Class A hockey teams, of which a vast majority have to drive a considerable amount of milage to get to an ice rink for a majority of the year.
Break up classes based on: 1)who has access to year around ice, 2) The size of the youth program you draw from, 3) enrollment 4) allow teams to opt down based on ceratin factors.
I don't want St. Thomas to go to AA just to watch them lose, that's stupid. I want A hockey to be for the teams that can't compete with the big boys, not for the ones who just don't want too. Warroad should be AA, Hibbing should be AA, they're not private. Warroad excuses are as lame as STA's.
This isn't football, basketball, or even tennis. All those sports anyone can play and work at. All you need is a gym or patch of grass and you can play. This is hockey and for 8-9 months out of the year ice isn't a naturally occuring substance around here. How is LaCrescent supposed to compete with Lourdes, Red Wing, and STA? They can't. All it takes for a program like STA to become a viable hockey power is for them to decide that they want to be one. There are 80+ Class A hockey teams, of which a vast majority have to drive a considerable amount of milage to get to an ice rink for a majority of the year.
Break up classes based on: 1)who has access to year around ice, 2) The size of the youth program you draw from, 3) enrollment 4) allow teams to opt down based on ceratin factors.
I don't want St. Thomas to go to AA just to watch them lose, that's stupid. I want A hockey to be for the teams that can't compete with the big boys, not for the ones who just don't want too. Warroad should be AA, Hibbing should be AA, they're not private. Warroad excuses are as lame as STA's.
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Neutron 14
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USHL draft list
Lee Anders St. Thomas Prep 90 LW
Rooney Connor St. Thomas Prep 90 F
Saintey James St. Thomas Prep 90 F
Vannelli Rob St. Thomas Prep 90 D
Sienko Kevin St. Thomas Academy Prep 90 F
Mergens Tony St.Thomas Prep 90 D
Prokop Marcus AA St Thomas Academy Prep 91 F
Crandall Justin St Thomas Academy Prep 92 F
Faulk Justin St Thomas Academy HS Prep 92 D
Isackson Christian St Thomas Academy HS Prep 92 F
Now lets add Ryan Stepan, Nick Larson, and Aaron Crandall.
Looks like your typical run of the mill Class A team doesn't it?
Lee Anders St. Thomas Prep 90 LW
Rooney Connor St. Thomas Prep 90 F
Saintey James St. Thomas Prep 90 F
Vannelli Rob St. Thomas Prep 90 D
Sienko Kevin St. Thomas Academy Prep 90 F
Mergens Tony St.Thomas Prep 90 D
Prokop Marcus AA St Thomas Academy Prep 91 F
Crandall Justin St Thomas Academy Prep 92 F
Faulk Justin St Thomas Academy HS Prep 92 D
Isackson Christian St Thomas Academy HS Prep 92 F
Now lets add Ryan Stepan, Nick Larson, and Aaron Crandall.
Looks like your typical run of the mill Class A team doesn't it?
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HShockeywatcher
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goldy313, I would be fine with it if they went up and so did other teams. The question I was asking all season is why only St Thomas and not the other teams and everyone just said they were different.
The only thing, though, that would not be good about that is that it would be too much like a tier system then.
Yes, getting ice is a big factor, but is that then to say all teams with ice access should be AA? Just curious. I agree it helps, but much of the money for the STA ice came from UST and alumni. Mars, on Marshall's campus, is rented out to many other places and is home ice for both boys and girls of St Scholastica. An investment shouldn't be held against a team I don't think.
Still not sure why Neutron has a thing for STA. But hey, thanks for posting that stuff so I didn't have to
The only thing, though, that would not be good about that is that it would be too much like a tier system then.
Yes, getting ice is a big factor, but is that then to say all teams with ice access should be AA? Just curious. I agree it helps, but much of the money for the STA ice came from UST and alumni. Mars, on Marshall's campus, is rented out to many other places and is home ice for both boys and girls of St Scholastica. An investment shouldn't be held against a team I don't think.
Still not sure why Neutron has a thing for STA. But hey, thanks for posting that stuff so I didn't have to
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Neutron 14
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I did not mean only STA. I use them as an example when posting to you, for obvious reasons. I agree with everything Goldy said.Neutron 14 wrote: It was created for the "non-traditional hockey power" small school to have a chance at playing for a state title without having to compete with the mega-conglomerate-fat cat-suburan schools as packerboy so eloquently states.
All thats left to do now is wait two weeks. You will ask a similar question, and claim that nobodys ever answered you.
In the quarterfinals of the Class A state tournament teams without nearby year around ice went when playing teams with year around ice:
2007- 0-3
2006- 1-1, the only 2 teams without ice played each other
2005- 0-3
2004- 0-2
2003- 0-3
2002- 1-1, Fergus Falls over Int Falls
Not since 2000 (Sauk Rapids over Lourdes) has a team without nearby year around ice beat a team with year around ice in the Class A tournament opening round. Still think it's not a big factor?
2007- 0-3
2006- 1-1, the only 2 teams without ice played each other
2005- 0-3
2004- 0-2
2003- 0-3
2002- 1-1, Fergus Falls over Int Falls
Not since 2000 (Sauk Rapids over Lourdes) has a team without nearby year around ice beat a team with year around ice in the Class A tournament opening round. Still think it's not a big factor?
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HShockeywatcher
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Should Richfield be AA? In my mind yes, but I don't know the status of their youth program. Though a kid from Richfield has a much better opportunity to skate in June or September than a kid form Luverne, LaCrescent or Ely has. That's why I think there should be an appeal process to go down to A. Teams like the Saints, Minnehaha Academy, Minneapolis East and West that have access to year around ice but obviously have kids who can't utilize it would benefit form that process.
Class A should have the least amont of teams not the most.
Class A should have the least amont of teams not the most.