Minnesota AAA Teams

Discussion of Minnesota Girls High School Hockey

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MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan »

ghshockeyfan wrote:Maybe after a couple years they decided to move up as it seems everyone plays up an age bracket for some reason...
This is a problem in my experience when the Minnesota teams go up and play the better Canadian teams. Up there they don't seem to "play up" as much as we do here, and so our teams will run up against older, stronger, and more experienced players and will often lose as a result. Here it seems to be an "honor" of sorts if you are invited to play on an older team, where as up there they pretty much stick to their age groups which gives them an edge, everything else being equal.

Has anyone else seen this?
xwildfan
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Post by xwildfan »

East Side Eagles usually puts together a U19 team. Typically doesn't have the "big names" in girls hockey. But is usually pretty competitive.
rwb1351
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Post by rwb1351 »

xwildfan wrote:East Side Eagles usually puts together a U19 team. Typically doesn't have the "big names" in girls hockey. But is usually pretty competitive.
didn't they combine with Walser last year?
keepitreal
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Post by keepitreal »

MNHockeyFan wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:Maybe after a couple years they decided to move up as it seems everyone plays up an age bracket for some reason...
This is a problem in my experience when the Minnesota teams go up and play the better Canadian teams. Up there they don't seem to "play up" as much as we do here, and so our teams will run up against older, stronger, and more experienced players and will often lose as a result. Here it seems to be an "honor" of sorts if you are invited to play on an older team, where as up there they pretty much stick to their age groups which gives them an edge, everything else being equal.

Has anyone else seen this?
Absolutely. And it gets worse than that.

U19 is going to be all over the map this summer. With a number of U16 teams "playing up" and new "AAA" teams being formed at will, it's going to be tougher to keep tournaments balanced. This in turn, will vastly reduce the appeal of AAA hockey. It makes no sense to put an elite team of graduating seniors on the ice against an ad-hoc team of 8th-9th graders. This upward pressure on the system will fragment U19 AAA as early as this year.

Because of the number of "AAA" teams being formed, more than ever it seems there is a tendancy for teams to move up to a higher age level. A 2nd year U16 team with true AAA talent will do so to seek a greater challenge, but even if a team isn't of that caliber they will follow suit to try and stay with their peers, or more often out of coach/parental egos believing it is best to play against the highest level of competition even if they don't have the horses to compete.

This is affecting all levels and making summer tournaments a real crapshoot, but hits the ceiling at U19 where there is no where else to go. Private AAA hockey at the high school level will soon become a poor outlet for off-season because there are no standards for participation based on either skill OR age; anyone with a checkbook can be a "AAA" team.

The trend is this: either USA Hockey will have to step in and administer the age levels as they do in most other states through rostering AAA teams, or in lieu of AAA, a tryout-based B&A elite league will provide a better outlet for gifted high school players.
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

keepitreal wrote:
MNHockeyFan wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:Maybe after a couple years they decided to move up as it seems everyone plays up an age bracket for some reason...
This is a problem in my experience when the Minnesota teams go up and play the better Canadian teams. Up there they don't seem to "play up" as much as we do here, and so our teams will run up against older, stronger, and more experienced players and will often lose as a result. Here it seems to be an "honor" of sorts if you are invited to play on an older team, where as up there they pretty much stick to their age groups which gives them an edge, everything else being equal.

Has anyone else seen this?
Absolutely. And it gets worse than that.

U19 is going to be all over the map this summer. With a number of U16 teams "playing up" and new "AAA" teams being formed at will, it's going to be tougher to keep tournaments balanced. This in turn, will vastly reduce the appeal of AAA hockey. It makes no sense to put an elite team of graduating seniors on the ice against an ad-hoc team of 8th-9th graders. This upward pressure on the system will fragment U19 AAA as early as this year.

Because of the number of "AAA" teams being formed, more than ever it seems there is a tendancy for teams to move up to a higher age level. A 2nd year U16 team with true AAA talent will do so to seek a greater challenge, but even if a team isn't of that caliber they will follow suit to try and stay with their peers, or more often out of coach/parental egos believing it is best to play against the highest level of competition even if they don't have the horses to compete.

This is affecting all levels and making summer tournaments a real crapshoot, but hits the ceiling at U19 where there is no where else to go. Private AAA hockey at the high school level will soon become a poor outlet for off-season because there are no standards for participation based on either skill OR age; anyone with a checkbook can be a "AAA" team.

The trend is this: either USA Hockey will have to step in and administer the age levels as they do in most other states through rostering AAA teams, or in lieu of AAA, a tryout-based B&A elite league will provide a better outlet for gifted high school players.
Agreed. Although, note the last time I said some of this same thing I was attacked and I assume will be again.
keepitreal
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Post by keepitreal »

ghshockeyfan wrote:Agreed. Although, note the last time I said some of this same thing I was attacked and I assume will be again.
I'm with you coach. I'm not suggesting private teams should be eliminated or even regulated, far from it, however there does seem to be some problems ahead...
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

keepitreal wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:Agreed. Although, note the last time I said some of this same thing I was attacked and I assume will be again.
I'm with you coach. I'm not suggesting private teams should be eliminated or even regulated, far from it, however there does seem to be some problems ahead...
I should add, that this has been going on for years (playing up). In that I had such a young HS team this season I should be the last one to talk about this at all, but AAA wise it's tough. Most of those AAA teams moving up probably wouldn't play at that level in Canada I would hope.

I'll get attacked for saying this, but what I really wish is that we could have a fair tryout process and do a placement of players on area AAA teams and then obvioulsy let those that want to travel all over do so with their own groups. I feel this way about Spring, Summer, and Fall. If there was an AAA league based on NDP tryouts & nominations in two tiers this would be best... I'll leave it at that for now...
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

MINNESOTA JR WHITECAPS:

...Will be doing some tourneys/other stuff - still finalizing...

Roster:

G
Alyssa Grogan...Eagan (11)
Nikki Haralson...Wayzata (11)

D
Kelly Seeler....EP (11)
Jac Daggit....Park (11)
Kelsey Romatoski...AHA (10)
Erika Wheelhouse....Crookston (10)
Jessica Laurinaitis...Wayzata (11)

F
Andrea Green...EP (11)
Melissa Feste.....EP (11)
Sarah Erickson...Bemidji (11)
Danielle Welch...Hastings (11)
Abby Williams...Alexandria (11)
Marlee Wheelhouse...Crookston (11)
Liz Orke.....Wayzata (11)
Kacy Ambroz....NP (11)
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

Stick-It:
U19:
http://www.nscsports.org/tmp_images/07_ ... hedule.pdf

By the way - 4 of these teams are Walser teams I hear, 2 are IceCats, and 2 are on their own:

Walser:
Blue
White
Red
St. Croix Saints

IceCats:
Reilly
Burg

Independents:
East Side Eagles
Schwan Blues
Last edited by ghshockeyfan on Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
OntheEdge
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Post by OntheEdge »

ghshockeyfan wrote:
keepitreal wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:Agreed. Although, note the last time I said some of this same thing I was attacked and I assume will be again.
I'm with you coach. I'm not suggesting private teams should be eliminated or even regulated, far from it, however there does seem to be some problems ahead...
I should add, that this has been going on for years (playing up). In that I had such a young HS team this season I should be the last one to talk about this at all, but AAA wise it's tough. Most of those AAA teams moving up probably wouldn't play at that level in Canada I would hope.

I'll get attacked for saying this, but what I really wish is that we could have a fair tryout process and do a placement of players on area AAA teams and then obvioulsy let those that want to travel all over do so with their own groups. I feel this way about Spring, Summer, and Fall. If there was an AAA league based on NDP tryouts & nominations in two tiers this would be best... I'll leave it at that for now...
GHS,

I agree that AAA should be more competitive. Right now there are just a few teams that horde the talent and pretty much dominate which I think is bad for development. The really good teams aren't challenged and the bad teams have a hard time developing when they can't even get the puck out of their zone. Also, I agree that too many teams play up when they shouldn't because it waters down the competition. Most teams do so because they want to play with their peers. Its a chicken and egg thing where to play with your peers you have to move up but moving up causes the problem in the first place. I don't know if we want MN Hockey/USA hockey involved summer because of the cost and bureaucracy that would come with it. While I wouldn't abolish it, Minnesota Hockey has made winter hockey too burdensome in many ways. Summer hockey is a nice break from all of the little rules that create problems.

I know that MH/USA is considering extending their season into the Summer to compete with unsanctioned AAA teams. I don't know if they have identified a structure but if they do get involved with Summer I would hope that a more competitive Club team system is created with a minimum rule structure.

Showcase has tried to develop a competitive AAA league but I think most people the showcase league as inferior to what's going on in AAA. Too bad OS can't expand into the Summer because while not perfect from what I've seen its the best high level league around.
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

MN H has kept us from HUGE fees and hockey becoming even more elitist during the regular season. I don't agree with everything they do, but we often miss that they are what have kept us from the "Elite" only being cared about. Interestingly our "community based" model has been the best thing for G Hockey and many wonder why MN has created so many top hockey players!

This aside, but still in mind, what if MN H stayed out of the operation - but supported (with MGHCA & MSHSL) the creation of - AAA for off-season at the HS levels? Could this actually eliminate some of the BS as far as cost, etc. that we see now for tourneys, etc.? Has some of this really started to get out of control? Who are we playing for and why? Is this not about the kids getting high-quality opportunities?

Many despise AAA for what it may appear to do, but if you removed much of the politics and developed some structure to place kids on teams through a tryout and kept it truly elite and kids at the right age level I think #1 we'd see more of the truly elite kids participating & #2 the system would be better as far as age/ability appropriate...

I don't blame teams for playing up, but they only can and do as the current "system" is broken.

I don't think that Showcase, Os, current AAA teams, or any of these alone can fix this. Only all together can do so, and some need to put their pride aside and work towards what's best for all...
OntheEdge
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Post by OntheEdge »

ghshockeyfan wrote:
Many despise AAA for what it may appear to do, but if you removed much of the politics and developed some structure to place kids on teams through a tryout and kept it truly elite and kids at the right age level I think #1 we'd see more of the truly elite kids participating & #2 the system would be better as far as age/ability appropriate...

I don't blame teams for playing up, but they only can and do as the current "system" is broken.

I don't think that Showcase, Os, current AAA teams, or any of these alone can fix this. Only all together can do so, and some need to put their pride aside and work towards what's best for all...
I agree with most of what you say GHS. While not perfect and sometimes too bureaucratic MH has done a decent job in the winter. Most people (the exception being Minnesota kids joining sanctioned Tier One AAA teams from Wisconsin) wouldn't have it any other way.

As far as unsanctioned AAA, I agree it is elitest and broken but trying to get everyone on the same page (i.e. do what's best for all instead of my kid) will be difficult if attempted MH. The people with the money and opportunity often try to get what's best for their own child. Summer AAA is viewed by most as an opportunity to play on allstar teams and get a leg up on the competition. Creating a competitive level playing field in which the majority can benefit will be very difficult. Lets see what MH/USA comes up with. I wonder if MH/USA can create a model to make unsanctioned AAA obsolete or at the very least less desirable. I personally don't have any idea how it can be done or if it can be done at all since unsanctioned summer AAA seems to be thriving. Some teams actually cut kids if they don't perform or if there is a more desirable player available. I feel it will be hard to stop it.
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

I think you can still have your elitist travel teams and then your local tryout based Elite AAA. Not all the truly elite kids want to travel (nor need to). They should have a place to play and would with the right offering.

Also - would be good (I think) for the kids to play with changing groups/teams over time yet still get to play with the elite friend based travel groups if they wish.

Just my opinion, and I know it won't be popular, but w/o any personal bias and some experience with this it's what I believe & feel is best for the SPORT and the greatest # of kids!
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Post by MNHockeyFan »

OntheEdge wrote:Some teams actually cut kids if they don't perform or if there is a more desirable player available.
If you mean cutting kids mid-season because of performance reasons I haven't seen this personally after the team invitation has been accepted and the parents have paid the money. However if a kid never bothers to show up for most of the practices or games, or somehow creates a real problem for the team due to some kind of outlandish behavior, then I could understand the team wanting to take some action.

I would agree that it's fairly common for some kids not to be invited back for the following season if that's what you meant above.
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

MNHockeyFan wrote:
OntheEdge wrote:Some teams actually cut kids if they don't perform or if there is a more desirable player available.
If you mean cutting kids mid-season because of performance reasons I haven't seen this personally after the team invitation has been accepted and the parents have paid the money. However if a kid never bothers to show up for most of the practices or games, or somehow creates a real problem for the team due to some kind of outlandish behavior, then I could understand the team wanting to take some action.

I would agree that it's fairly common for some kids not to be invited back for the following season if that's what you meant above.
I've seen it happen. Mid-season, $ paid, and all. I saw one team gut its roster mid-season after playing together all Spring/Summer. Let's not fool ourselves into believing that AAA as is is anything but cutthroat and as political as anything out there. It's the best (talent) and worst (politics) of the game. Too much of it is morally and ethically bankrupt. There are exceptions though.
hockeyrube
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Post by hockeyrube »

GHS,

Could not agree with you more. The Summer AAA thing is getting so obnoxious - you cannot imagine how difficult it is to put a AAA team together.... the parents want to know who you have "signed" thus far, what big names, so my kid can play on the best AAA team - parents changing allegiances from one team to another after giving the first team a verbal committment, teams dumping their bottom kids for a last minute upgrade. It boils down to a "what can you offer my little Krissy Wendell type" !!! Truthfully, it is disgusting, and distasteful. I would much prefer a more structured B&A like the boys have where you choose a pool of players (Tier I and Tier II) and split teams up as equal as possible.
Rube
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Post by MNHockeyFan »

ghshockeyfan wrote:I've seen it happen. Mid-season, $ paid, and all. I saw one team gut its roster mid-season after playing together all Spring/Summer. Let's not fool ourselves into believing that AAA as is is anything but cutthroat and as political as anything out there. It's the best (talent) and worst (politics) of the game. Too much of it is morally and ethically bankrupt. There are exceptions though.
I guess I'm very naive as to what goes on, as I haven't witnessed this over the last 4 years we've been involved. I would hope that what you describe is the exception rather than the rule, and not the other way around.

There is no doubt that I've seen more upset girls and parents with high school hockey in terms of them thinking they got the shaft somehow vs. AAA. I suppose this might be due to the stakes being higher, and the fact that with most AAA there is no tryout per se - you're either invited or you're not, and once you are invited the playing time is more equal than with high school varsity.
OntheEdge
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Post by OntheEdge »

MNHockeyFan wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:
I guess I'm very naive as to what goes on, as I haven't witnessed this over the last 4 years we've been involved. I would hope that what you describe is the exception rather than the rule, and not the other way around.
MNHockeyFan,

It is probably somewhere closer to what GHS describes unless you are a top team. New and struggling teams experience players jumping ship to better teams. Middle tier teams probably cut players to try to compete with top tier teams. Top teams cut players or don't invite them back and top teams stay dominant by raiding the best players from the competition each year. It all adds up to cutthroat tactics which is bad for good competition.
keepitreal
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Post by keepitreal »

OntheEdge wrote:
MNHockeyFan wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:
I guess I'm very naive as to what goes on, as I haven't witnessed this over the last 4 years we've been involved. I would hope that what you describe is the exception rather than the rule, and not the other way around.
MNHockeyFan,

It is probably somewhere closer to what GHS describes unless you are a top team. New and struggling teams experience players jumping ship to better teams. Middle tier teams probably cut players to try to compete with top tier teams. Top teams cut players or don't invite them back and top teams stay dominant by raiding the best players from the competition each year. It all adds up to cutthroat tactics which is bad for good competition.
I apologize in advance for the LONG rant, but I believe AAA hockey is a good thing, as would be "AA" and "A" hockey if we as parents could find patience and contentment that our daughters participate in a great sport. Unfortunately, WE tend to mess it up. AAA hockey used to be one thing, now it is something quite different.

AAA Hockey, as the name implies, was undoubtedly created to provide a showcase of the "best" talent in a given region to compete against similar teams in other regions. How many and who constitute "the best" is open to debate-- I would say an NDP invite would be a good starting point, but NDP phase II would be more accurate. As with everything else, new talent emerges, some diminish, and various teams vie for the affections of the best players to 1) compete and 2) enhance the reputation and visibility of their team. Politics certainly exist and have existed. However, were it not for politics, we wouldn't have the number of teams that have sprung up and most players would not have an opportunity at all.

On many teams, a player must be dedicated and perform in order to be asked back next season and that is understood. If players are cut mid-season on a team for non-disciplinary reasons, every parent on that team should consider whether this is the situation they would like their child in. New teams spring up out of the ashes of teams where people have been treated poorly.

Players aren't "hoarded", they are not prisoners and no one is forced to participate. Players who are deemed worthy are invited and can decide for themselves where they would like to play. Successful teams can attract the most talented players but the cost is uncertainty of maintaining a spot on the team vs. an enduring relationship as a hero on a perhaps less accomplished team, among other things. If your kid is on a top team, one of two things is true: she is either truly elite, or she is looking over her shoulder. This is "the price". It comes with the territory as it does at any high level of competition, sports or otherwise.

Some teams are low-key and offer the ability to compete in other demanding sports like club soccer or softball, or allow you to go to your summer cabin. Other teams aren't so forgiving. Some teams travel extensively and are expensive, other teams enter a few local tournaments and that's it. For some it's about fun, for others it's about generating D1 exposure and is quite serious indeed. Some teams might win but can't tolerate each other, while other teams might not do as well but are best friends. Choose wisely.

The bottom line is that teams, coaches, organizations and especially parents need to understand and agree upon the objectives of the team, the commitment level, and foremost be brutally honest with themselves and objective about the level at which the team is able to compete. Parents need to let the coaches coach and if you can't stand the situation you shouldn't be there at all. Envy, ego and unrealistic expectations are a bigger problem than politics, and that's why you hear words like "cut-throat" "raided" "hoarded" and "traitor" associated with something so insignificant as teenage girl summer hockey teams.

If a kid leaves (i.e. gets raided or stolen) from my daughter's summer team for a higher level team (i.e. traitor), I am proud (i.e. jealous) of her accomplishment (i.e. politics) and hope my daughter can find inspiration (i.e. push her up early) in her friend's success, or had some hand in it (i.e. ego). :) :) :)

If your kid is a committed, elite-level talent, then you will probably have several teams asking her to join them. This is incredibly obvious, but if she isn't getting invited you might have to seek out a team and it probably won't be a top team. If you still find no takers, then you may realize she isn't ready for AAA hockey. If you feel that's unfair, she is a victim or overlooked, or you subscribe to the theory of elevating her level of play by surrounding her with better talent, then start your own team-- many have.

Finally, if you are wise enough to understand your kid hasn't attained elite skill level and you can put aside your pride to do what's right for her, forget the AAA team and spend your money on good training instead. I read in the paper that the top girls hockey player in the state this year still takes weekly skating lessons during the season. Hmmm...
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Post by findme »

[quote="nothernewguy"][quote="UWhockey88"]Centennial and Coon Rapids have put together a U16 team to play in the Stick It To Cancer Tournament. This group has many talented skaters who most if not all have stayed together every summer for many years. Not sure what their name will be or how many other tourneys they will be playing in.[/quote]

Isn't this the Christian Brothers team that played U16 last year?[/quote]

What I have heard is that this group of Centennial players have played under the name "Team Cunningham" in the Stick It Tourney for many years except last year when they formed Christian Brothers. They honor a Centennial hockey mom who passed away of Breast Cancer. Even though they don't seem to take it too serious, they have played to the Championship every year. My daughter was asked to join them last year and they are really a great group of girls who like to work hard and have fun.
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

keepitreal - well said. I guess AAA is not the work of the :twisted: but can appear that way sometimes due to the circumstances.

I don't blame people for seeking out the best opportunities, just wish that there was a better way. I've seen too many kids get hurt, but that's life and maybe a good life lesson in some ways.
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Post by keepitreal »

ghshockeyfan wrote:keepitreal - well said. I guess AAA is not the work of the :twisted: but can appear that way sometimes due to the circumstances.

I don't blame people for seeking out the best opportunities, just wish that there was a better way. I've seen too many kids get hurt, but that's life and maybe a good life lesson in some ways.
For the vast majority of people I've encountered in summer hockey, I believe their hearts are in the right place. We all love our children and don't want them to be hurt, disappointed, etc., but honestly, if we shield them from dissapointment and the truth are we really doing the right thing? I'm dating myself, but I think what AAA used to be is what it should be now. The rest, my kid included, should be training to be a top-50 elite player (if they are so motivated) rather than having some lesser definition of AAA bestowed upon them. It only makes them think they are a better players than they really are, demotivates some, and does not prepare them for the reality that will come their way soon enough.

Truely, only a very few deserve to be called AAA players. The rest should work to get there.
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

Again, well said. I will say many more spots afforded under the current setup, but do worry that the situation may not help push our very best players but does elevate the ability of more of our "nearly" elite. I think we throw some words around like "AAA." "Elite," "Select," "All-Star," etc. and maybe some of them don't mean what they may have at other times. Seems kids win trophies for waking up in the morning now, but that's another topic for another time as well... Don't get me wrong, I'm all about the praise & positives, but reality hits pretty hard without some of it pre-real world... I think sports is supposed to teach some of this too...
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Post by OntheEdge »

keepitreal wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:Truely, only a very few deserve to be called AAA players. The rest should work to get there.
Hmmm. If there are only a few CHOSEN ONES that qualify and THE OTHERS don't play then unsanctioned AAA tournaments can't exist. If AAA tournaments don't exist then the CHOSEN ONES won't have anyone to play. The CHOSEN ONES will have to find tournaments for other CHOSEN ONES. Based on the results of many of the summer hockey tournaments maybe most of the teams from outside of Minnesota (other than the Canadian teams) aren't worthy either since they frequently lose to THE OTHERS. If the few chosen ones deem themselves too good to play other lesser beings then maybe they shouldn't play in tournaments such as Stick It, Meltdown, etc for those tournaments dare to allow miscreatant teams made up of THE OTHERS and aren't worthy of their exulted elite status. Is that what you are driving at KeepItReal? I'm sorry but I think that is elitest and excludes too many players. And finally who gets to pick the CHOSEN ONES and tells everyone else, sorry but you are one of THE OTHERS so stay away and go work on your game? That is of course unless we deem you to be a miscast OTHER and you become CHOSEN at a later date.
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

FWIW I think there are good lessons in not always making the cut. Sometimes the lesson is that you need to improve, no matter how close it was. Be determined to go work hard and come back next time that much better.

I think this is why there is some importance in a Tier 2 league in Boys Elite for example. A place for those not quite at that top level, but still darn good.

It's hard to know where to draw that line between "making it" and not in any situation. How many teams do you offer of "Elite" vs. "Not Yet" or "T1" vs. "T2." I would argue that this isn't always about top/bottom half of any group, etc. (but always nice when it rarely is). It's often relative to the group, etc. And also, we have to remember that the best and those that need the most work are easiest to spot, but in-between it is tough to cut but you have to look for a natural break in talent sometimes vs. what's ideal...

In other situations there are more set parameters and you can't shift number of players selected, etc. The best example I have for this is NDP. We get what they tell us we can send and so we send it and hope that any kids that were close get that "At Large" call, but that may or may not happen... But, what about the kids that were close to those that were close and especially so as we move away from the easily identifiable very top?

There's always going to be a place to draw that line. The difference is that in NDP there is nothing that will change that for you besides how you show at the tryouts. You might hope your reputation and showing is enough to get an at large if you don't make that cut, but there won't be any personal influence (politics) that will get you on the list as may be the case based on who you know with AAA teams...

So, maybe in some ways the NDP teaches a good life lesson in that sometimes you don't make the cut even when you may be close. And, similarly, maybe AAA teaches another life lesson in that sometimes if you're close (or not) and you know the right people you make it (kind of that who vs. what you know scenario)...
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