Minnesota AAA Teams

keepitreal · Post by **keepitreal** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:54 am

AAA is elitest by definition. To define a level of play as elite and then complain that it's eliteist is silly.

Look, I'm not against kids playing hockey in the summer; far from it. But the open AAA system that exists in Minnesota and virtually nowhere else will lose its meaning unless tournaments start to become tiered (I and II or AAA and AA), or some degree of age appropriateness is asked for as per USA Hockey elsewhere. This freedom requires responsibility or at least self-regulation and it is failing--I saw first year U14's playing in a U19 AAA tournament last year. What most people fail to understand is that AAA hockey is a national and international stage, not merely a local one, and our ability to guage proper levels of play for our own teams and ask teams in from other states or countries depends on a proper understanding of a team's ability and age.

hockeywise · Post by **hockeywise** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:37 am

I think once we see the rosters of all these AAA teams we will have a better idea of whats going on. But I do agree at some point the parents and who ever is running these teams need to put these teams at the level where they should play A-AA if that means a showcase spring league or what ever.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:50 am

I think one concern is if teams outside of MN will come here to play us if don't maintain some standard of "AAA" play. We won't ever (I don't think) regulate the travel teams completely as they're as much based on who can afford that amount of travel as anything. It would be great to pick the best 1-2 teams and send them all over the nation to represent our state and girls hockey, but we know that those kids won't always have the means nor desire to do so. Obviously you want the kids to be our most talented that we send all over, but that isn't always the case. This is a good thing in some respects because it may help those kids that are close but that can afford to travel to get some additional exposure, especially out east to the Ivy's and other schools that likely are going to require the same economic standing for attendance costs - of course, those kids also have to have strong academics, etc. too.

What I think many are missing is that if we could establish a solid AAA system and series of MN tourneys we could then attract non-MN teams to MN as well as all the college coaches for a select few premier MN events HERE vs everywhere but here... This would help the greatest number of MN kids get recognized and would likely have more of the best players participating as the cost would be more realistic if those teams didn't have to travel everywhere. You could still have travel teams for those that want to and feel that what I've described above wouldn't be enough visibility.

I'm not sold that MN H or MSHSL or MGHCA or anyone has to regulate this if the groups involved can sit down and come up with something that would be even better for all. It would have to be a joint effort and I'm just not sold that this will happen though.

What we'd see is something like the NDP (or Boys Elite League) determining regional teams of truly top kids in certain age groups (think Phase 2 teams playing together afterwards in the following Spring/Summer/Fall). Those would be your T1 or AAA teams. All the other kids that were nominated or in P1 could be your T2 or AA teams. Technically all these teams could qualify for State competition as far as 14/10 rule (if those teams want to try to go to nationals - but that would be a big commitment...) Just through their games between each other and local events designed to showcase the talent that would hopefully attract not only SSM & T-Breds to play in these events, but also eventually non-MN teams when the word gets out of how great these events/teams truly are (colleges then come to watch too...).

It would seem that then "travel" teams to represent MN could be selected for those that indicate they're interested in doing so from the T1/AAA league first and then look to T2/AA kids if spots/opportunities still exist. Similarly, not all kids that would be offered spots in T1/AAA would accept in all seasons (late-Spring/Summer/Fall-before/early-Spring-after), so those spots could be filled with the next closest T2/AA kids that wanted to move up.

Bottom line is that we could offer so much more if we did this right vs. a free-for-all. I think it hurts the older borderline D1 kids when we dilute the quality of the AAA with so many younger players as we don't then attract as many colleges & other top AAA teams across the nation for our MN events. We should be the premier destination however if we did this right as we have the greatest % of talent, are pretty central in the US, etc...

keepitreal · Post by **keepitreal** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:26 pm

ghshockeyfan wrote:Bottom line is that we could offer so much more if we did this right vs. a free-for-all. I think it hurts the older borderline D1 kids when we dilute the quality of the AAA with so many younger players as we don't then attract as many colleges & other top AAA teams across the nation for our MN events. We should be the premier destination however if we did this right as we have the greatest % of talent, are pretty central in the US, etc...

Exactly. I'm not suggesting we limit participation of any teams or try to set up super-teams for representation elsewhere (NDP provides this already), but for these and many other reasons we should make responsible attempts to maintain a standard of AAA and/or reasonable age bracketing of the type that is acknowledged and recognized outside of Minnesota. I also agree this is unlikely to happen though, as no one will be anxious to submit to yet another governing body.

OntheEdge · Post by **OntheEdge** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:47 pm

keepitreal wrote:AAA is elitest by definition. To define a level of play as elite and then complain that it's eliteist is silly.

Keepitreal,

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your comments. When I use the term "Elitest" I use it in terms of the Big Brother approach. Elitism by definition is the "practice of or belief in rule by an elite" Webster's College Edition. In other words, only the elite rule and in such situations it becomes clubby and exclusive. I just get a little ticked off when a select few are making the rules for their own to the exclusion of others. Such situations tend to put into place the glass ceiling where you can see your way to the top but the people up there won't let you get there. I think that it would be difficult to pick and choose who is gifted enough to play and who is not. I agree with GHS that frequently we see elite teams with at least one or two players along for the ride because of who they know. Maybe GHS is right that we need someone like MH to set up a system that is more objective in setting up leagues and uses criteria such as age and level played in the summer to create more competitive games.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:23 pm

FWIW I often say that hockey is "elitist" in that it seems to limit participation by the masses due to its expense, etc.

My earlier rant was more due to the fact that I think we'd get more participation of the best players (and visibility for all MN kids) if we made the AAA or "Elite" something that you made based on ability first and foremost. Idealistic I know, but the boys have accomplished this for Fall with their Boys Elite League & Tier 2, etc. I just think it could be done for girls too, and also extended to the Spring & Summer (except for maybe the travel team scenario). I also think that politics sometimes don't get the best kids invited to travel, etc. and $$$ (cost) is always an issue too...

I don't think that people realize the percentage of NDP or even top NDP talent that we have in MN. There is NO reason why we should HAVE to travel everywhere. But we still CAN if we WANT...

I also think that if AAA teams formed some sort of alliance and selected kids from a tryout process I would guess the tourneys/leagues could be done closer to cost & with less time commitment than travel-based options... Plus more kids would be involved as cost/time commitment would be less... Plus you'd be able to create more top events that could attract non-MN teams to MN... Plus that would in turn attract more colleges to watch/recruit... Which would in turn increase visibility for ALL our kids... Hmm...

OntheEdge · Post by **OntheEdge** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:41 pm

ghshockeyfan wrote:FWIW I often say that hockey is "elitist" in that it seems to limit participation by the masses due to its expense, etc.

My earlier rant was more due to the fact that I think we'd get more participation of the best players (and visibility for all MN kids) if we made the AAA or "Elite" something that you made based on ability first and foremost. Idealistic I know, but the boys have accomplished this for Fall with their Boys Elite League & Tier 2, etc. I just think it could be done for girls too, and also extended to the Spring & Summer (except for maybe the travel team scenario). I also think that politics sometimes don't get the best kids invited to travel, etc. and $$$ (cost) is always an issue too...

I don't think that people realize the percentage of NDP or even top NDP talent that we have in MN. There is NO reason why we should HAVE to travel everywhere. But we still CAN if we WANT...

I also think that if AAA teams formed some sort of alliance and selected kids from a tryout process I would guess the tourneys/leagues could be done closer to cost & with less time commitment than travel-based options... Plus more kids would be involved as cost/time commitment would be less... Plus you'd be able to create more top events that could attract non-MN teams to MN... Plus that would in turn attract more colleges to watch/recruit... Which would in turn increase visibility for ALL our kids... Hmm...

I agree whole-heartedly and I would be for such a system provided that some objective group such as MH was in control. Setting up a tryout system to pick teams would be an equitable solution. It would be better than the cutthroat system we have today where connections and money and not just talent all allow just a few to control what we have today.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:22 pm

I also think that it's a heck of a lot of work and we're spending so much time fighting each other vs. working together towards a common goal. As much as I talk about the pitfalls of some of this, I don't know that many have any clue the time that these coordinators put in to form teams or programs for AAA. Then add in all the political and other stuff that they must go through to make this viable, etc. - it's just unbelievable - the cost is crazy too. I think it would be great to sit down with those that wish to be involved in coordinating a tryout process, team draft/composition/region based grouping? for local MN tourneys/league for late-Spring/Summer/Fall/early-Spring & from there work out what travel teams will exist and how eligible players may be contacted/selected for late-Spring/Summer but also Fall & early-Spring B&A, etc.

In that NDP already exists and has a process, that may be a starting point that would not create more time/cost/etc. Perfect? No. But far better than anything else out there and already done for NDP. I guess I would use the NDP to start this process...

Ideal world I'd probably hope that IceCats, Walser, East Side Eagles/St. Croix Saints/Lightning, & Blues/Wild would be four groupings (as far as coordinating an individual team) that would be involved in U19 AAA "league" teams all off-season. Let the IceCats, Jr. Whitecaps, and Walser send teams as MN reps everywhere in the US - but populate them with 3 teams at 19's of the very best kids that want to go out of a T1/AAA level. I don't believe that we have more than 3 teams worth of true top U19 AAA level kids to send around and represent MN when you consider that some kids just won't do it as the cost/time commitment is too much with other sports, etc. We have to be careful to not send teams that don't belong representing MN G Hockey that aren't ready to compete at this level on the national and international stage... That hurts us here in MN I believe...

You could have these teams be geographically based, or do a straight draft as everyone has to go to the same places in MN anyway I suppose for the events. And travel is no different as you pretty much fly out to wherever anyway... Unfortunately this may be a consideration in the team composition in that one team may need to be an "outstate" team that only comes for large events vs. league games in the metro that may fall during the week... I don't believe that there are more than 3 T1/AAA teams at 19's in the metro. Maybe enough kids for 1 outstate (including N & S kids).

That's how I'd do 19's.

16's - same sort of thing I suppose.

T1/AAA & T2/AA at both 16's & 19's for league all-off-season play. Some crossover LEAGUE play would not be the end of the world I suppose... Not sold that crossover between ages/levels would be best when bringing in SSM/T-Breds and especially outside-MN AAA teams at the true age levels. They will expect to get something worth their trip & want to give college coaches a reason to come watch...

14's down would be different as there is no NDP to base it on...

One consideration may have to be that those 3 U19 Travel teams mentioned above may be the groups that we have compete for State with T-breds & SSM instead of the 4 all-off-season league teams as they may not want to travel for sure. There are some dual roster issues with this that would need to be worked out I suppose to ensure that those kids on the travel U19's actually had the 14/10 rule and were on the right roster for State & Nat'l birth competition (if they/their team wanted to do this...). This year only Walser did...

As to U16 State & birth to nationals, I'm content letting SSM 16 go as I don't think we need to do this at this age level. 19's seem to have more value. I suppose this could be discussed if we had U16 travel teams as we do for 19's... Not sure this is needed though...

keepitreal · Post by **keepitreal** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:40 pm

Ontheedge, no problem. I know what you mean.

I will take the opposite side of the coin (can I do that now?) just so no one thinks I'm a elite competition nutjob

All in all, I think summer club hockey (what I would call AA hockey reserving AAA for tryout based teams) is a good thing and a chance to get to know players and families from other areas. Most teams are born out of friendships and yes, connections, which can allow a group to get pretty tight. I now follow players on many HS teams and try to see some of their games when we can. And it's always fun when summer teammates meet on opposite sides of the ice in a HS game, or when players from the same HS meet in a summer game.

Generally summer hockey is not a tense environment if the parents keep these games in context of the larger picture and/or don't let their egos get in the way. For me, its always been a great experience, a great opportunity to meet and travel with other people, work with their kids and learn about their HS or youth programs. I'd hate to see this go away in lieu of pure tryout-based competition for which I feel there are already plenty of outlets for the true top-level (AAA) players who choose this route.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:45 pm

From the Nationals thread, I think this is the bulk of what will be the Walser Blue U19 roster?

http://walserhockey.blogspot.com/

2 Sydney O'Keefe F
3 Lauren Zurek D
4 Carissa Ketcher F
4 Christy Smith F
6 Michellia Michaelson F
7 Laura Komercek D
8 Kirsten Peterson D
9 Hannah Davis D
11 Kerrie Graske F
12 Allie Harwood F
14 Britany Hartman F
15 Brittany Erickson F
20 Alexa Nelson F
21 Louise Hillen F
22 Meaghan Stumph F
24 Sandy Nelson D
27 Ammanda Plum G
34 Liz Westberg G

I don't have any ideas on the White & Red rosters however...

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:48 pm

keepitreal wrote:Ontheedge, no problem. I know what you mean.

I will take the opposite side of the coin (can I do that now?) just so no one thinks I'm a elite competition nutjob All in all, I think summer club hockey (what I would call AA hockey reserving AAA for tryout based teams) is a good thing and a chance to get to know players and families from other areas. Most teams are born out of friendships and yes, connections, which can allow a group to get pretty tight. I now follow players on many HS teams and try to see some of their games when we can. And it's always fun when summer teammates meet on opposite sides of the ice in a HS game, or when players from the same HS meet in a summer game.

Generally summer hockey is not a tense environment if the parents keep these games in context of the larger picture and/or don't let their egos get in the way. For me, its always been a great experience, a great opportunity to meet and travel with other people, work with their kids and learn about their HS or youth programs. I'd hate to see this go away in lieu of pure tryout-based competition for which I feel there are already plenty of outlets for the true top-level (AAA) players who choose this route.

Always good to look form the other side or play a little

's advocate I believe...

Let me say though that I think the same friendships & experiences would be created in a more well structured AAA system... And that it also would be better for all the kids & sport in general...

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:12 pm

MNHockeyFan wrote:For some reason (?) Minnesota Hockey turned down Shattack St. Mary's request to play the U16 Icecats this weekend. So those games will not be played.

This Tuesday the U16 Icecats will scrimmage the U16 Minnesota Extreme - originally it was supposed to be SSM.

The score of this game was:

U16 Icecats 4, U16 MN Extreme 0.

It was a close and well-contested game, just 1-0, until the later stages. The Extreme was short a couple players and they seemed to wear down towards the end.

nothernewguy · Post by **nothernewguy** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:23 pm

Oh be very very careful what you wish for. I see many valid points in this discussion but on the other hand do you really want minnesota hockey controlling everything you do in the offseason? Do you really want to be denied asking girls to be on your roster even if they can handle the play because their birthdate doesn't exactly fall into their age categories? Do you really want to be forced to stay within geographical areas and not allowed to travel to play with someone from WBL if you live in Burnsville? That could all happen if minnesota hockey gets their finger in the pot.

Right now there is some comfort in knowing that if a team can't get it's typical roster together for a tourney they can pull anyone they want as long as they're not too old, and get a team on the ice. Do you really want to lose that ability too?

It wouldbe fine if there could be a little regulation but minnesota hockey wouldn't provide a little it would force a lot.

If tournament directors were smart they would self-enforce. they could easily deny entry to any team that has more than say 25% of its players too young. Old man hockey leagues do that with their over-30 type leagues and they get to g/f in a couple but most must be old enough. Maybe we should rally the tournament sponsors to do something before they get it forced upon them. Don't think they'd be crazy about having to run all USA Hockey sanctioned tournaments, would they?

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:20 pm

All of this would be a lot of work and I'm not sure who would do it anyway... So, that and the fact that it would be tough to get everyone to work together, probably make it imposible. Nice thought anyway!

Here is the link to the other Stick-It to Cancer tourney schedules:

http://www.nscsports.org/sports/hockey/ ... esults.htm

Melvin44 · Post by **Melvin44** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:50 pm

I agree with most of what you are talking about. I have a daughter who's a 92 (most of her team are 92's) they played at the U16 level last year and did very well. Now most of the better players wanted to move up to U19 or they would bolt to another team. I know it might not be pretty playing U19 this year but in one or two years they will be very good. My point is why not play over your head and loose 4-0, 5-1, 6-1 now and then be the dominant team in a few years. We all know to get better you have to play the best or better competition. All levels have weak teams and I feel tournaments should have a Tier system like the International Cup to avoid this or have someone like you guys who know players police the tourneys. Teams move up because they don't want to win 8-0 every game.

If the elite teams only want to play elite teams then they can do the homework and have their own tournaments or league. Call it the U19 Elite Tournaments and you could advertise no U16 or bad teams allowed (this last part was a joke).

I love you guys and am only trying to point out that there will always be weak teams in every tournament and my suggestion would be to bury them (us) and try to make teams never to want to come back. DON'T LET UP! Great players love to score 3 or 4 goals a game. Trust me.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:43 pm

I put the first HS team I coached in the Int'l Cup AS A HS TEAM. So, my thought then (2001) was the same as what some are doing now by "playing up" it would only make us stronger long term. I don't think that we were within a touchdown of anyone in that event, and may have even drawn the "Team MN Elite" one game, and anyone who remembers that group can imagine what even an average HS team would have been up against playing them (think HS boys playing an NHL team). http://www.geocities.com/teamminnesotaelite/

I too see the value in playing at the highest level in that the kids will get stronger. A HS roster like mine this past regular season (or some Kennedy teams a few years back) should be evidence enough of this - again, when the talent is there to warrant it.

I'm looking forward to seeing some of these young teams playing up as we'll see some of the future stars right away, and they will be better for it. We see it at all levels (14's at 16's, 16's at 19's, etc., etc.) so not unusual or new by any means.

OntheEdge · Post by **OntheEdge** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:25 pm

nothernewguy wrote:Oh be very very careful what you wish for. I see many valid points in this discussion but on the other hand do you really want minnesota hockey controlling everything you do in the offseason? Do you really want to be denied asking girls to be on your roster even if they can handle the play because their birthdate doesn't exactly fall into their age categories? Do you really want to be forced to stay within geographical areas and not allowed to travel to play with someone from WBL if you live in Burnsville? That could all happen if minnesota hockey gets their finger in the pot.

Right now there is some comfort in knowing that if a team can't get it's typical roster together for a tourney they can pull anyone they want as long as they're not too old, and get a team on the ice. Do you really want to lose that ability too?

It wouldbe fine if there could be a little regulation but minnesota hockey wouldn't provide a little it would force a lot.

If tournament directors were smart they would self-enforce. they could easily deny entry to any team that has more than say 25% of its players too young. Old man hockey leagues do that with their over-30 type leagues and they get to g/f in a couple but most must be old enough. Maybe we should rally the tournament sponsors to do something before they get it forced upon them. Don't think they'd be crazy about having to run all USA Hockey sanctioned tournaments, would they?

I share some of the same fears regarding MH NorthernGuy but I think some minimum oversight would be good for summer AAA. I don't know the answers but I think some sort of draft to establish teams would go a long way to improving competitive play. Maybe MH isn't the right oversight entity if it is forced to implement too much regulation but I think trying to establish teams that are more equal in ability will go a long way towards development.

joehockey · Post by **joehockey** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:29 pm

Saint Croix Saints Roster

2 Michelle Fisher F/D
3 Judy Daleiden D
4 Madison Marcotte D
5 Lauryn Morris D
7 Lauren Charpentier F
8 Lindsay Burman F
9 Megan Cox F
10 Alexa Jacobsen F
11 Christine Schendel D
12 Corinne Henning F
14 Kristina King F
15 Mary O'Brien F
16 Kari Lundberg F/D
17 Megan Steinmetz F
19 Katie Mancini F
21 Lisa Tuuri F
22 Cassie Vennemann D
49 Maggie McDowell F/D
77 Maggie Pendleton D/F
31 Kim Frederich G
31 Lauren Joarnt G
35 Rebecca MacRostie G

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:03 pm

joehockey wrote:Saint Croix Saints Roster

2 Michelle Fisher F/D
3 Judy Daleiden D
4 Madison Marcotte D
5 Lauryn Morris D
7 Lauren Charpentier F
8 Lindsay Burman F
9 Megan Cox F
10 Alexa Jacobsen F
11 Christine Schendel D
12 Corinne Henning F
14 Kristina King F
15 Mary O'Brien F
16 Kari Lundberg F/D
17 Megan Steinmetz F
19 Katie Mancini F
21 Lisa Tuuri F
22 Cassie Vennemann D
49 Maggie McDowell F/D
77 Maggie Pendleton D/F
31 Kim Frederich G
31 Lauren Joarnt G
35 Rebecca MacRostie G

Just want to say that there are some great younger standout players on this roster. I don't know all the grades, but I assume most of these gals are underclassmen or not seniors yet...

joehockey · Post by **joehockey** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:02 pm

Good mix but younger all good kids that play multiple sports.

Saint Croix Saints U19

2 Michelle Fisher F/D '91 Cretin Freshman
3 Judy Daleiden D '91 Blaine Soph
4 Madison Marcotte D '92 WB Freshman
5 Lauryn Morris D '91 Park Soph
7 Lauren Charpentier F '91 Stillwater Soph
8 Lindsay Burman F '91 Cambridge Freshman
9 Megan Cox F '92 New Richmond 8th
10 Alexa Jacobsen F '92 Woodbury Freshman
11 Christine Schendel D '91 NSp Freshman
12 Corinne Henning F '92 Culver Academy Freshman
14 Kristina King F '92 Stillwater Freshman
15 Mary O'Brien F '92 NSP Freshman
16 Kari Lundberg F/D '91 Woodbury Freshman
17 Megan Steinmetz F '91 Blaine Freshman
19 Katie Mancini F '91 Cretin Soph
21 Lisa Tuuri F '92 Stillwater Freshman
22 Cassie Vennemann D '91 St. Paul Blades Soph
49 Maggie McDowell F/D '92 Hill Murray Freshman
77 Maggie Pendleton D/F '92 Cretin Freshman
31 Kim Frederich G '89 Forest Lake Jr.
31 Lauren Joarnt G '92 SSM Freshman
35 Rebecca MacRostie G '90 St. Paul Blades Jr.

thehockeygurl · Post by **thehockeygurl** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:08 pm

how do you get onto these AAA teams?

OntheEdge · Post by **OntheEdge** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:01 am

thehockeygurl wrote:how do you get onto these AAA teams?

Hockeygurl,

Its pretty simple. There's no real magic. Just get together some players for a roster of players that are age qualified, pay the fee for the tournament and you are in. Most tournaments take teams on a first come first served basis although some can be selective if they get too many applications and once in awhile teams are by invite only.

The problem with AAA in the summer is frequently the skill level of the teams is mixed. There will be some teams that choose elite players that are age appropriate and dominate the tournament. There will also be teams that are entering just for the fun of it and don't realize (or don't care) that they will not be able to compete. There are also teams that are very young and just want to see how they do against older players. In other words, competition is very spotty.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:44 am

The rosters for the various Icecats teams are now posted on the website:

http://www.minnesotaicecats.com/

tigerpower · Post by **tigerpower** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:05 pm

anyone have any info on the Pink Panthers? I hear they're one of the best... plus we play them this weekend..

hocsocstud · Post by **hocsocstud** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:54 pm

there is a new AAA team called the Southern Heat.. there are player from Rochester, Austin Mankato Owatonna albert lea etc.