Keeping Focus

14all all41 · Post by **14all all41** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:41 pm

What do NDP, OS, CODP, Junior and Senior Fest, and all those other AAA and self-titled Elite opportunities sell? Simply put, they sell HOPE.

In real life, no female athlete from Minnesota has ever been identified by any of these processes that would not have been found through other means, namely high school or USA Hockey teams. Think about those chosen to tryout for the National team recently. There were no big surprises. The youngest Minnesotans parlayed incredible high school careers into strong D1 college performance.

That said, all “selection” processes should be reviewed for efficiency and effectiveness. Did they accomplish their mission with the best use of resources?

What does that really mean? NDP requires a budget of roughly $100,000 a year and thousands of hours of work from 126 high school coaches + 80 Phase 1 volunteers + 20 Phase 2 volunteers. To do what? To identify potential National team participants. Is this an efficient or effective use of our resources? No. Never has been. Never will be, regardless of who organizes it or who evaluates the players. Has NDP ever identified a national-caliber player that was not already known through their high school or USA hockey teams? Not in Minnesota. Cannot think of one from any other USA Hockey District either.

Participating in CODP is not a straight shot to the Olympics either. Parents often pony up large amounts of cash for training programs like these without finding out anything about the instructors, group dynamics or program content.

It would be far cheaper to pay the airfare and lodging for all college coaches to come watch high school and USA hockey teams play in Minnesota. The difficulty is that their peak season and ours overlap. Yet, you can still find many of these coaches watching games at holiday tournaments and playoff time at their expense. And, it would be far cheaper to create a summer training league, open to everyone, and use it to increase the level of play while promoting individuals for college opportunities.

What all these acronym organizations do is increase visibility, and sometimes improve skills. But there are no guarantees. Many are entrepreneurial businesses that need to make money, pay salaries, and cover costs. When it comes to our kids, we parents are not always careful consumers. We buy with our hearts and not our heads.

Lastly, several D1 coaches have encouraged their recruits not to participate in NDP, Junior Fest, Senior Fest and other “showcase” opportunities as there are far better ways for college-bound athletes to spend precious training dollars. And most importantly, no self-respecting college coach or talent scout is going to limit their options to those kids “selected” by business owners, volunteer staff, or even other coaches.

Keep your focus. Treasure your daughters. Can you post one thing you like about your daughter that is not hockey related? Do you have a girl with a great giggle? Someone who loves Milk Duds and rides horses? Take this challenge...share with us one positive thing about the girl you treasure.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:12 pm

IMHO this thread should get tacked to the top of every forum on this site.

PuxRinmyblood · Post by **PuxRinmyblood** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:32 pm

Thanks 14all. After a few weeks of reading posts about these programs, I think your comments are right on the money. The only thing I could add to them is that we (parents) need to remember that all of this is supposed to be about FUN, playing a great sport with your friends, and learning a bit about life along the way. The cash that we lay out for these opportunities is to build good memories for our children.....not just for us parents.

I don't think that there is necessarily anything wrong with NDP, OS, CODP, AAA teams or any of the other programs you mention. In fact, there's lots of good things about them, and my daughters take part in more than one. All these programs are not going to turn them into Krissy Wendell though, and it is completely unreasonable to expect that. They just like to play, and work very hard at their game. That is good enough for me, so I suppose I'll keep writing the checks.

Everybody has to have a dream, but the reality is that most kids who take up the game will not have the opportunity play college hockey. However, If your kid is lucky she (or he) will have memories of playing HS hockey that will last forever.

gopher9 · Post by **gopher9** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:13 pm

Lastly, several D1 coaches have encouraged their recruits not to participate in NDP, Junior Fest, Senior Fest and other “showcase” opportunities as there are far better ways for college-bound athletes to spend precious training dollars. .[/quote]

You make several good points in your post. But this one is far from the truth! These events are not for training. they are a once in a life time event for a 16-18 yr. old! You are only a junior or a senior once in your life. Meeting new freinds and having fun is what it is all about. I cannot imagine a college coach telling a recruit not to participate?????

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:21 pm

Maybe they don't want them to participate so that no one else can recruit them?!?! Kidding, but I think I get the point - they aren't development at all really. But are a great experience.

The other thing I should say, is that I can't group NDP with some of the others that have been mentioned on here. It is not run for a profit. Similarly, the MGHCA events are the same way. Not profit driven. All the other things that I've heard mentioned are.

justlifeasitis · Post by **justlifeasitis** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:37 pm

Thank you 14all all41 for your words of wisdom. I too ponied up the large amounts of cash for training programs in hopes that my daughter would be "found" however I have been pondering the path that I took for my female hockey player since the end of the 2007 High School hockey season. She once was a young (7th, 8th and 9th grade) enthusiastic hockey player who actually enjoyed OS, CODP, Selects, Acceleration MN, AAA teams and the many camps she attended at that young age. Now I have a VERY talented high school hockey player who has not skated once since the end of last season.

I don't think that there is necessarily anything "wrong" with these programs and I have to add that I partially blame her HS coaching staff for their (at times) inability to control the tempers on the bench.

My words of wisdom for others would be to not burn your daughter out with all these programs that YOU think will get her to the Olympics and always "protect" her from grown adults who should act like adults-no matter if it means that she will sit the entire season. Hockey is just a life experience. Teach her to be strong and true to her feelings! If she does not want to play hockey ever again-that's ok! She is a beautiful young women.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:09 pm

justlifeasitis makes some great points too through his daughter's personal experience. With all of these programs and camps, burn-out can get to be a real problem if there is too much hockey for too many years. "Way back when" I remember hockey used to be strictly a seasonal winter sport, and most kids couldn't wait until there was ice and the season would start. So many kids are now playing pretty much 12 months a year that it becomes routine and there isn't much to look forward to. The problem for many becomes one of "keeping up with the Jones's" - if a player in their real development years just does hockey in the winter only, she'll fall behind her peers and with many programs won't make the team, or be relegated to third or fourth line duty. If she's really a good athlete especially in an average or poor program, this won't necessarily be the case but chances are she'll still fall behind other good athletes, making it tough to advance to the "top tier" for her age group.

None of this is necessarily bad, but it's certainly not what it used to be and for girls that want to amongst the best, it really leaves no other choice but to skate all year around, or at least do a good amount of other training other than just during the high school season. It just becomes a matter of choosing the right venues that promote the best development while still being fun for that individual.

Twinnesota · Post by **Twinnesota** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:58 pm

I do not mean to burst your collective bubble here, but what is important indeed must be recognized. As much as I like hockey, I realize that it is NOT a lifelong thing for my daughter or most others daughters for that matter.

My daughter is a pretty fair player, and she often tells me that I love hockey more than she does. She's probably correct. It brings tears of pride to one's eyes watching a talented child. A real rush !!

But she sings like a bird, plays a musical instrument, is a GREAT student, and is also a 3 sport athlete on top of it all...and the two sports besides hockey, she can play the rest of her life. She won't be playing hockey for a living (professionally, unless it's teaching it), and neither will any other woman in the near future.

As parents, we can only lend support, and try not to stick our noses where we should not (that's easy to say).

Just remember that we are having the time of our parental lives with these talented ladies, but it is NOT just about hockey, or the national team, olympic team, etc...

Nuff smoke blowing, thanks,

T

justlifeasitis · Post by **justlifeasitis** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:44 am

I consider my daughter to be a very good friend of mine-along with many of her friends who play on the same HS hockey team. With all due respect and with that said, I can attest to the fact 16-18 yr olds (Jr. and Sr.) do not put that much importance on NDP, Junior Fest, Senior Fest, CODP. I have heard of only one player from their HS team (she played JV last season) that has tried out for any of these programs. And we're talking about a team that was rated in the top 5 in the State of MN. My concern is that all of these programs are great developmental tools however they are not seeing alot of very talented players-who choose not to participate. I HOPE the coaches of these programs do not think that every talented player is actually particating in these programs.

I agree with 14all that outstate college's should fly out during the season and watch these top players. (and teams) Minnesota and Wisconsin Colleges and Universities are all over our girls during Christmas Break. I also agree that a summer league to promote individuals for college opportunities would be far cheaper and ioverall a better experience for the players. Thanks for listening!

OLYMPIA · Post by **OLYMPIA** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:59 am

Keep your focus. Treasure your daughters. Can you post one thing you like about your daughter that is not hockey related? Do you have a girl with a great giggle? Someone who loves Milk Duds and rides horses? Take this challenge...share with us one positive thing about the girl you treasure.

She LOVES to spend my money and prefers to save her own.

finance_gal · Post by **finance_gal** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:11 am

I'm convinced that there is nothing I can do for my daughters to guarentee them getting a scholarship except to be supportive of there pursuits. If they want to be Hockey Players, then I write the checks for them to go to a camp or two, if they want to ride horses, then I buy them a horse, if they want to go to college then I will write a check for that too. As for codp, and NDP and most of the so called elite programs they are there to showcase talent that has already developed, not to develop talent, so I don't see why people get all exited that there kid is one of the chosen ones. Because I have a limited amount of money, I guess i would rather see my children in a program that has the intent of developing players rather than showcasing them.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:33 am

I thought this was good & semi-related:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Jra0hFQFI

rwb1351 · Post by **rwb1351** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:51 am

ghshockeyfan wrote:I thought this was good & semi-related:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Jra0hFQFI

great find!

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:57 am

justlifeasitis wrote:I consider my daughter to be a very good friend of mine-along with many of her friends who play on the same HS hockey team. With all due respect and with that said, I can attest to the fact 16-18 yr olds (Jr. and Sr.) do not put that much importance on NDP, Junior Fest, Senior Fest, CODP. I have heard of only one player from their HS team (she played JV last season) that has tried out for any of these programs. And we're talking about a team that was rated in the top 5 in the State of MN. My concern is that all of these programs are great developmental tools however they are not seeing alot of very talented players-who choose not to participate. I HOPE the coaches of these programs do not think that every talented player is actually particating in these programs.

I think we need to be a little careful here. I would say the top talent participating is the rule and not the exception. I don't think that everyone anticipates or believes that every top player is participating, but I think it's the majority that are eligible vs. the minority. Also, I know some kids that want badly to participate in these events but don't get the chance. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, to aspire to something, but we do need to keep this all in perspective.

justlifeasitis wrote:I agree with 14all that outstate college's should fly out during the season and watch these top players. (and teams) Minnesota and Wisconsin Colleges and Universities are all over our girls during Christmas Break. I also agree that a summer league to promote individuals for college opportunities would be far cheaper and ioverall a better experience for the players. Thanks for listening!

I agree with this too - but I think we need to be realistic. Most colleges won't fly out to see that which is not a certain level of play or that won't showcase a certain number of top players within a pool of teams at least. The reason that coaches are all over players at christmas break is that your team is likely in a top tourney, a bracket with many top teams, or a group of so-so teams with at least 1-2 outstanding D1 level players on them.

findme · Post by **findme** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:05 pm

She LOVES to drive my new car and prefers not to drive hers!

She would LOVE for me to buy her a $350.00 prom dress and prefers not to wear a $150.00 dress!

She LOVES to clean the house when her friends come over and prefers not to clean at times!

justlifeasitis · Post by **justlifeasitis** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:16 pm

ghshockeyfan-you are right-I re read my quote and I did not mean to say "alot of very talented" and meant to say "they are not seeing a lot of the talent." (as in many talented players just don't participate) My apology to the girls in these programs-they are talented and deserve it.

titleist · Post by **titleist** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:44 pm

I love all these messages and loved the Don Lucia speech. I have taught boys youth hockey at the highest level and now girls hockey, and my message to the parents is the same, "You don't need spring, summer, and fall hockey to keep up with everybody else." Your kid just needs to be active. Whatever they participate in will cross train them in some way, shape, or form for the next activity they participate in. I think all of the division one athletes that I have had the pleasure of coaching were all multiple sport athletes; including the Hobey Baker winner.
Regarding the developement camps, I am a believer in exposure to a degree. I have girls that have passed on some of these camps in the past and are now just finally being discovered by division 1 coaches, while others who may not be as talented as those others but have participated in the past, are already on the radar.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:19 pm

Multi-sport is best and helps avoid burnout in any one sport. I will say that I've seen way too many knee/leg soccer injuries though, but that's the risk you take in any sport I guess. I don't believe you need to be playing hockey 24/7 all off-season, but if you're on the couch eating chocolate while watching soaps all Summer that probably wouldn't be a good alternative.

rwb1351 · Post by **rwb1351** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:38 pm

ghshockeyfan wrote:Multi-sport is best and helps avoid burnout in any one sport. I will say that I've seen way too many knee/leg soccer injuries though, but that's the risk you take in any sport I guess. I don't believe you need to be playing hockey 24/7 all off-season, but if you're on the couch eating chocolate while watching soaps all Summer that probably wouldn't be a good alternative.

That sure is tempting though.

As a former 3 sport athlete it does take a lot of organization to get a good balance of each of the sports, and during those 9 stressful months school as well. But often summer can become the more hectic time. Running from one practice, to the next game, then time for another practice. It takes a lot of heart for athletes that do this.

I think burnout is a growing scare as kids and parents begin to push themselves past every possible limit. Talking to a few girls last weekend at NDP i was surprised at how many have decided to skip summer teams this year, or just focus on one camp, rather than spreading themselves so thin. I guess everyone needs to keep it all in perspective and realize that it's supposed to be fun, and if you find yourself dragging your feet with your head down to that 4th game in half as many days then maybe it's time to pull back a little.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:47 pm

rwb1351 wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:Multi-sport is best and helps avoid burnout in any one sport. I will say that I've seen way too many knee/leg soccer injuries though, but that's the risk you take in any sport I guess. I don't believe you need to be playing hockey 24/7 all off-season, but if you're on the couch eating chocolate while watching soaps all Summer that probably wouldn't be a good alternative.
That sure is tempting though.

As a former 3 sport athlete it does take a lot of organization to get a good balance of each of the sports, and during those 9 stressful months school as well. But often summer can become the more hectic time. Running from one practice, to the next game, then time for another practice. It takes a lot of heart for athletes that do this.

I think burnout is a growing scare as kids and parents begin to push themselves past every possible limit. Talking to a few girls last weekend at NDP i was surprised at how many have decided to skip summer teams this year, or just focus on one camp, rather than spreading themselves so thin. I guess everyone needs to keep it all in perspective and realize that it's supposed to be fun, and if you find yourself dragging your feet with your head down to that 4th game in half as many days then maybe it's time to pull back a little.

The other thing that we're seeing is Summer teams that are just more for fun, less (if any) travel, and that still will allow the kids to get the "showcase" opportunities, but not have to agree to do every game of every event and travel all over. Some just don't have the time, desire, resources - OR maybe they just want to have some of their time back to play other sports OR - heaven forbid - be a kid!!!

One other thing that crossed my mind today, after watching the Lucia video, was that parents that are giving their kids all these options should not be criticized. There are tons of kids who have little parental contact, and I guess if this is one way that parents can connect with their kids, then so be it. Sometimes it's a little over the top I agree with all that this can entail, but again I think too much is better than none at all at the very least. We just have to be a little careful to be too vicarious and also we don't want the kids playing for their parents vs. for themselves obviously. I've seen too much of that over the years too... And that's not really the kid's or parent's fault, more just a product sometimes of the situation and lack of communication. This is why I don't believe in letting kids make all the decisions about what they do, but do like the concept of giving them some input so there is more dialogue which may illustrate how they truly feel.

rwb1351 · Post by **rwb1351** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:56 pm

ghshockeyfan wrote:
The other thing that we're seeing is Summer teams that are just more for fun, less (if any) travel, and that still will allow the kids to get the "showcase" opportunities, but not have to agree to do every game of every event and travel all over. Some just don't have the time, desire, resources - OR maybe they just want to have some of their time back to play other sports OR - heaven forbid - be a kid!!!

this is often the type of AAA team i played on, which did in fact make it easier to not feel so stressed.

One other thing that crossed my mind today, after watching the Lucia video, was that parents that are giving their kids all these options should not be criticized. There are tons of kids who have little parental contact, and I guess if this is one way that parents can connect with their kids, then so be it.

I agree whole-heartedly with this. My dad never said no to any tournament/league that i wanted to do and it did help us connect. We'd spend hours talking about this game or that game, and in-season we'd spend nights hovered over the newspaper tracking the stats of the friends i had made.

Hux · Post by **Hux** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:13 pm

14all all41 wrote:What do NDP, OS, CODP, Junior and Senior Fest, and all those other AAA and self-titled Elite opportunities sell? Simply put, they sell HOPE.

Participating in CODP is not a straight shot to the Olympics either. Parents often pony up large amounts of cash for training programs like these without finding out anything about the instructors, group dynamics or program content.

It would be far cheaper to pay the airfare and lodging for all college coaches to come watch high school and USA hockey teams play in Minnesota. The difficulty is that their peak season and ours overlap. Yet, you can still find many of these coaches watching games at holiday tournaments and playoff time at their expense. And, it would be far cheaper to create a summer training league, open to everyone, and use it to increase the level of play while promoting individuals for college opportunities.

What all these acronym organizations do is increase visibility, and sometimes improve skills. But there are no guarantees. Many are entrepreneurial businesses that need to make money, pay salaries, and cover costs. When it comes to our kids, we parents are not always careful consumers. We buy with our hearts and not our heads.

As noted, CODP is not a direct shot to the Olympics. It is not meant to be. CODP is a non-profit, whose purpose is to identify and develop elite athletes. It does not exist to showcase players, or to get them D1 rides, or to "sell hope."

The 19 eligible seniors from the 2005 advanced training group all received college scholarships because their dedication to improving themselves over the course of three or four years of training elevated their abilities, not because they were part of the program and seen by coaches. The CODP training methods improve skating, skills and strength & conditioning. The players that have come through that program now read like a whos who of D1 stars, particularly in the past five years. Some of those players will be part of the 2010 Olympic team, and those in the years after.

As a person in considerable contact with a number of college coaches, one of the most common things I hear about young players (incoming recruits or current Freshman) is along these lines "she has a lot of natural talent, but she needs to improve her strength and conditioning." Yet on several occasions I have heard comments like "she is in amazing shape, and is really strong on her skates" and it just so happens that that player came through CODP.

While CODP may not exist with the sole intent of getting a player noticed, a player who has been through CODP, and follows the regimine will be one who gets noticed.

findme · Post by **findme** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:22 pm

There is a fine line between giving your kid the opportunity to participate in any program you may wish them to participate in and burn out. If a younger player loves the game and does not complain about going to camps, playing AAA, ect then it is the parents responsibility to realize that too much of a good thing could have a negative effect as well. (burn out, injuries) Considering we are the "guardians" of our children and we write the checks out then it would be very appropriate for us to say no to one camp or another. It is one thing to have a very talented 7th, 8th or 9th grader however it is totally a different thing to have a very talented High School player who is not enjoying the game.

I know my daughter has not skated at all since the end of the 2007 season. Physically, mentally and spiritually she needed a break from the tough High School Hockey season that she played. It's been one of the best things she's done for herself.

hockeya1a · Post by **hockeya1a** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:26 pm

I wonder if anyone has ever added up what they have spent on some of these kid’s camps and clinics, Schools and off season teams AAA Selects and the likes.
I would bet if we would have saved that money we could have paid their way thru college. I guess if you think about a AAA or select costing $1200 a year and add in a camp or two at around $400-$1000 for a week or two then if you send your kid to a private school it could be between 10-25,000 a year all total you could easily spend 25-30,000 a year over 3-4 HS years and now you have spent 100,000-120,000 to get a HS education and play hockey and that does not even include the several years of hockey they have played before HS and the worst part is there are still no guarantees you will get a scholarship or even play hockey in college.
But I guess we are all guilty is some ways

Thunderbird77 · Post by **Thunderbird77** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:08 am

Hux wrote;While CODP may not exist with the sole intent of getting a player noticed, a player who has been through CODP, and follows the regimine will be one who gets noticed.

This used to be true about CODP when Jack Blatherwick was involved. I've spoken with Jack directly and he no longer has anything to do with it. Unfortunately, the man who runs it now continues to use Jack's name as a means of giving the program credibility. I have a friend at work whose daughter received a letter chastizing her for choosing not to participate in CODP. The letter questioned her committment to the sport of hockey and suggested that she would never become an Olympic athlete. The girl was 11 years old! The only name on the letter was Jacks. The only trouble is that Jack never wrote it.

The last time we spoke with Jack about CODP, he said that he had started the program because at the time there weren't any other training alternatives for girls that wanted to excel at hockey. Jack's comment was that this wasn't the case any longer. At the time, there was a conflict between the CODP time my daughter was given and her high school's practice time. He advised us to go to the High School program and have our daughter continue to play soccer.

As an aside, my daughters high school coach, once a big supporter of the program is no longer recommending it. Too many injuries. Also, the camp is run in such a disorganized manner that no one is ever sure what the schedule will be until the last minute, making it virtually impossible to schedule around.

CODP may be a non-profit, but it would be interesting to find out just what the salary/bonus of the camp director and his daughter are. IMHO, the olympic ideal is dead at CODP.

While its true that you may get noticed if you pick CODP for summer training, the same is true for a number of the training programs that exist today. There's more than just the training program that determines a Division 1 athlete. I was an unnoticed athlete coming out of HS, but ended up a D1 athlete with a scholarship. Different sport, different era, but the concept is the same.

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