NAHL vs USHL

[HOFamer]

Been hearing alot of talk about the NAHL catching up with the USHL from a talent perspective. Haven't gotten out and watched much and was wondering if anyone had an opinion?

[Gopher Blog]

The NAHL is essentially a fall back league for players who can't make a USHL roster. Whoever says they are catching up is way off base.

[Hockeyguy_27]

The NAHL is essentially a fall back league for players who can't make a USHL roster. Whoever says they are catching up is way off base.

I agree. The USHL is the premiere junior league in the US.

[Knowlzee]

The leagues have a little different approach, and therefore have evolved to somewhat different type teams. The USHL seems to be driven by players that already have attracted the attention of colleges. Since this is happening at an earlier age, the USHL has many talented and younger players that colleges judge to have potential. They seem to want to attract the younger players as they also have a maximun number of 20 yr olds per team.

Since there are many good hockey players, and not all potential is noticed at an early age, not to mention player development is quite variable for each player, many good players therefore do not make the USHL teams. For many it is not about ability, but about the college interest. Also, NAHL does not have a maximum number of 20 yr olds per team.

In general, it is younger players with potential, versus older more developed players. The gap isn't that great, if at all. It would be very interesting to see them play, but the USHL has nothing to gain, possibly some pride to lose, so we may never see an interleague contest.

Both leagues, very good hockey.

[Lordosis]

The gap isn't that great, if at all.


Don't kid yourself. There is a considerable gap between leagues. Look at some of the players stats that were in the USHL to begin the year and now playing in the NAHL. I've played in both leagues and can tell you there is a considerable difference in the speed of the game. I do agree that the NAHL is still very good hockey, but it's not in the same league. Put any team from the NAHL in the USHL and they would be struggling to get 15 wins in a season. Also look at the impact USHL players make on major conference D1 hockey programs as opposed to NAHL'ers. They don't call USHL tier 1 for the fun of it.

[Knowlzee]

Personal stats are for selfish hockey players, lazy scouts and hockey Moms. I am referring to actual play. Stats between leagues mean very little, as a player in that situation probably would have seen much less USHL time and much more NAHL time, because, yes,.....they are different leagues. However, the gap in quality of play isn't that different.

Can't argue, if you have played in both leagues, however, the changes in the last few years are significant. If you haven't played in the last 3 years, your experience may be inaccurate.

As posted earlier, the USHL is college driven, of course they will have more D-1 players, because the interest by colleges was already there. However, there are more and more "major conference D1" players coming from the NAHL each year.

By the way, Chicago and Ohio won't get 15 wins this year,....and they are already in the league.

[Blue&Gold]

Ohio was basically a team made up of NAHL players at the beginning of the season. Since then, MANY player changes have made the team better, but before the changes made, Ohio only won like a couple of games.

Just like any league, the NAHL has a few players that could play in the USHL now, and some might next season. However, the play is night-and-day different. It's almost as big a step from NAHL to USHL as it is from MN Jr. B to NAHL.. (Aren't they trying to become Jr. A Tier III?)

If you can catch onto an NAHL team and not make a USHL team, that does NOT mean you won't make it. Go play and work hard. But the game level is tougher the higher you go..

[Observer85]

Stats between leagues mean very little, as a player in that situation probably would have seen much less USHL time and much more NAHL time, because, yes,.....they are different leagues. However, the gap in quality of play isn't that different.

The reason the player sees little playing time in the USHL is maybe he is not that good or just in the wrong situation. Three players come to mind right away, two had connections with the Southern Minnesota Express.

Jeff Carlson was on 3 or 4 USHL rosters and was a 6 to 8 roster defenseman. At Owatonna, he is a top pairing defenseman and has done very well for himself. In his case, things worked out. He is going to a WCHA school (Anchorage) but who knows what his financial package is.

Stu Bickel, started last season in the USHL, in Green Bay. He had 0 points in 14 games and was released/traded (whatever you want to call it). In Owatonna, he put up 20 points in 38 games as both a forward and sometime defenseman. This year, he is playing in Sioux Falls, strictly as a defenseman and has 10 points in 50 games. As an older player, he has been a captain for the team (they rotate like the Wild do).

Danny Sexton played with Witchita Falls last season, had 59 points in 58 games. This season he moved up to Sioux Falls, plays just as much (I know because I have watched him several times) and has 20 points in 50 games.

The gap is bigger than you think.

However, there are more and more "major conference D1" players coming from the NAHL each year.

Most of these are low scholarship players or fill in players. Brian Schack went to Minnesota on a walk on basis (earned some money after he got there). The new defenseman from Fairbanks that is going to Wisconsin (Craig Johnson) is a walk on. The new goalie going to UMD, also playing for Fairbanks is most likely a walkon or low scholarship player. Last year, Jason Wiley played at Owatonna and was a walk on at Mankato.

Conclusion: Most of the scholarship money goes to players coming out of the USHL.

By the way, Chicago and Ohio won't get 15 wins this year,....and they are already in the league.

At the beginning of the year, Ohio was a glorified NAHL team. Many of their players played in the NAHL in 2005 as the Cleveland Barons. In mid season, the team started to make wholesale changes to the roster to improve and actually has.

Chicago is Chicago. A poorly run organization. Maybe they do belong in the NAHL.

[Knowlzee]

Again, the argument is about overall quality of play between the two leagues, however, here is a response to a few items by the Observer85.

If Dan Sexton plays on the powerplay, like he did for Wichita Falls, pretty sure he would have more than 20 points today. Different play situation,....different point total. By the way, are you the selfish player, lazy scout,....or the hockey Mom?

Overall play between hockey leagues has nothing to do with the type of scholarship, or not, that an individual player receives. In fact, "Financial package", "walk-on", "low scholarship player", further substantiate the that the USHL is DRIVEN by previous college interest, not actual quality of play by the players. Players that already have interest by colleges tend to make USHL teams, tend to play more, and tend to get more powerplay time. For the most part, the NAHL players have to prove themselves first, because they have not already been noticed. However, as players begin to see the overall play of the NAHL improve, more of the recruited players may choose the NAHL to play against mature and talented players,.....rather than the high potential, but younger, less mature players of the USHL. We'll see.

Regardless, the facts are,...... that more and more NAHL players are being given the opportunity at "major conference D1" institutions, which suggests the overall talent level is improving. With their current philosophy, the USHL may remain the top league, as long as the talent is correctly evaluated at any early age, if too many players are missed, or better development is shown in the NAHL, the overall quality of play of the NAHL may become better than the USHL. Keep the blinders on, if you choose.

[Offside]

the better NAHL teams are not any different than the lower one third of the USHL teams. Obviously the top NAHL teams don't get to play the USHL teams so the competition is the issue. Practices for top NAHL teams is not any different from the bottom one third of USHL teams. This is a hugh generality but for the most part, true

[irishhockey]

The truth of the matter is that a lot of colleges are making mistakes on kids that are two young. Due to this Colleges are looking for kids that will take low money and that are College ready. That is where the NAHL is making its claim. The Johnson kid from Fairbanks is a low scholarship guy(Less then 1/3). Reiter is a little less then a 2 for 4 (1/2). On Fairbanks roster they have 6 guys with Schmidt getting the most at almost (80%).

The gap is fairly big in talent between toe two leagues. However, if two teams played it would be a closer game then you think. Take a look at the all nahl team (Air Force) vs team ushl U Minnesota. UofM has no question more talent but Air Force was harder working and had more experience.

Perception is reality and the USHL has created a great image and the top players are wanting to play there. The NAHL has also found its niche of taking older players and giving them an oppurtuinity. Recently I heard Norm Bazin of CC say this to an NAHL coach- "This is a great league and we have over looked for the past few years." I would be willing to be they sign Rafeal Rodriguez from Santa Fe. He will be another low money guy with great value.

The players from the NAHL are doing well in College right now and are earning the respect of Universitys around the country. I look for this trend to continue However, the NAhl still needs to find a way to get top end (big time players -Lewis/Nodel/Wheeler etc.) To be considered equal to the USHL. The gap is there but not huge.

Well, that is a long post for me but I do have a little knowledge on this one.

[Observer85]

If Dan Sexton plays on the powerplay, like he did for Wichita Falls, pretty sure he would have more than 20 points today. Different play situation,....different point total. By the way, are you the selfish player, lazy scout,....or the hockey Mom?

Actually I am none of the 3. I am a dad of someone who did get offered a split season with Owatonna (so he could play HS too), has USHL experience, was a Mr. Hockey finalist when he was in HS, was recruited by several schools (what an experience!) and accepted a full ride, and was drafted by the NHL. I have watched both leagues very closely for the past 4 years.

Dan Sexton does play on the PP in Sioux Falls, that I know too (know him personally). But you are right, different play situation...different point total. He has done alright for himself with the Bentley College scholarship. What a GREAT business school and the hockey isn't bad either.

The truth of the matter is that a lot of colleges are making mistakes on kids that are two young. Due to this Colleges are looking for kids that will take low money and that are College ready. That is where the NAHL is making its claim. The Johnson kid from Fairbanks is a low scholarship guy(Less then 1/3). Reiter is a little less then a 2 for 4 (1/2). On Fairbanks roster they have 6 guys with Schmidt getting the most at almost (80%).

The gap is fairly big in talent between toe two leagues. However, if two teams played it would be a closer game then you think. Take a look at the all nahl team (Air Force) vs team ushl U Minnesota. UofM has no question more talent but Air Force was harder working and had more experience.

Perception is reality and the USHL has created a great image and the top players are wanting to play there. The NAHL has also found its niche of taking older players and giving them an oppurtuinity. Recently I heard Norm Bazin of CC say this to an NAHL coach- "This is a great league and we have over looked for the past few years." I would be willing to be they sign Rafeal Rodriguez from Santa Fe. He will be another low money guy with great value.

The players from the NAHL are doing well in College right now and are earning the respect of Universitys around the country. I look for this trend to continue However, the NAhl still needs to find a way to get top end (big time players -Lewis/Nodel/Wheeler etc.) To be considered equal to the USHL. The gap is there but not huge.

Well, that is a long post for me but I do have a little knowledge on this one.

Excellent post by irishhockey. I think what we may see in the future is the evolution of colleges looking for a more seasoned, mature player to come in once the higher profile "one or two and done" player leaves for the pro ranks. Because the NAHL allows more 20 years on their rosters, these kids continue to develop, are rewarded with a chance and most likely will stay around for the 4 years of college.

[Knowlzee]

My apology to the Observer85, although the question was mostly in sarcasm. He certainly has a much better hockey resume than myself. However, the most pertinent to the discussion of this thread is that you have "watched both leagues very closely for the past 4 years".

Observer85, in your opinion, has the gap closed, widened, or stayed the same over the last 4 years?

[Mitch Hawker]

The jobs of college coaches largely depend on recruiting the best players that they can get.

Here are links to the last four years of D1 recruits, according to Chris Heisenberg's excellent site:

http://members.aol.com/cheisenber/Recruit07.htm
http://members.aol.com/cheisenber/Recruit06.htm
http://members.aol.com/cheisenber/Recruit05.htm
http://members.aol.com/cheisenber/Recruit04.htm

The NAHL numbers for the past four years (2004 recruits through 2007 recruits):
63, 66, 53, 46 ...the number seems to be decreasing

During the same 4 years the USHL D1 signees have increased: 111, 128, 134, 134

This season's USHL had almost 3 times (134 v 46) as many players committed to a D1 college (even though the USHL has only 12 teams and the NAHL has 17 teams). That is an average of over 11 D1 recruits per USHL team and fewer than 3 D1 recruits per NAHL team.

Also, if you sort by college name it will become evident that a greater portion of commitments from the NAHL players are to teams in lesser college leagues.

Do the people you have heard saying that the gap is closing have any connection to the NAHL?

[Observer85]

The NAHL numbers for the past four years (2004 recruits through 2007 recruits):
63, 66, 53, 46 ...the number seems to be decreasing

During the same 4 years the USHL D1 signees have increased: 111, 128, 134, 134

This season's USHL had almost 3 times (134 v 46) as many players committed to a D1 college (even though the USHL has only 12 teams and the NAHL has 17 teams). That is an average of over 11 D1 recruits per USHL team and fewer than 3 D1 recruits per NAHL team.

Also, if you sort by college name it will become evident that a greater portion of commitments from the NAHL players are to teams in lesser college leagues.

Do the people you have heard saying that the gap is closing have any connection to the NAHL?

Plus, what you also have to look at for the NAHL is that they love to include the college commitments of the NTDP (Ann Arbor) kids. Most of these players would be on USHL teams if the program did not exist.

When you take the Ann Arbor players and their numbers out, the numbers are even less impressive for the NAHL.

[Lordosis]

The jobs of college coaches largely depend on recruiting the best players that they can get.

Here are links to the last four years of D1 recruits, according to Chris Heisenberg's excellent site:

http://members.aol.com/cheisenber/Recruit07.htm
http://members.aol.com/cheisenber/Recruit06.htm
http://members.aol.com/cheisenber/Recruit05.htm
http://members.aol.com/cheisenber/Recruit04.htm

The NAHL numbers for the past four years (2004 recruits through 2007 recruits):
63, 66, 53, 46 ...the number seems to be decreasing

During the same 4 years the USHL D1 signees have increased: 111, 128, 134, 134

This season's USHL had almost 3 times (134 v 46) as many players committed to a D1 college (even though the USHL has only 12 teams and the NAHL has 17 teams). That is an average of over 11 D1 recruits per USHL team and fewer than 3 D1 recruits per NAHL team.

Also, if you sort by college name it will become evident that a greater portion of commitments from the NAHL players are to teams in lesser college leagues.

Do the people you have heard saying that the gap is closing have any connection to the NAHL?

Thank you Mitch for finding the statistics. I once was one of those who didn't believe there was much of a gap, until I saw first hand. The Rochester Mustangs were in the league when I was a part of the USHL. I also remember playing a team called Fernie in the other league, with four, 20 year old over-agers from the WHL. If I remember right that Fernie team took Green Bay to overtime in the Junior A national Championship semifinals. The USHL didn't have a maximum number of 20 year olds then either. The leagues are both great hockey for prospects who don't yet have a college roster spot. The reality is that the USHL is hands down considerably better. No knock to the NAHL, because that's were a guy can get his roots, but it's not the same.

[Knowlzee]

Of course, we may have a connection to the NAHL (can't get anything by administration).

And how can anyone argue that Tier I is lower than Tier II?

Thanks for the recruiting statistics, but because Tier I is higher than Tier II is the reason for the difference in commitments between the two leagues. Despite what the USHL would like people to believe, the USHL doesn't necessarily develop (not that players aren't developing) players that become college recruits,....they for the most part, receive them.

Recruiting statistics are not actual quality of play. The game is not played on paper (the paper would rip), it is played on ice. There are many (much more than one 12 team league) very good hockey players in the US. Could it be possible that a team of comfortable players that already know what college team they will play for not work quite as hard, or play quite as hard,......as a team of players still trying to achieve the dream of playing college hockey? Could it be possible that talented, but not as physically or mentally strong players, not play as well as,......older, stronger players with maybe a little less talent? Is it possible that the previously noticed USHL player with potential have not (maybe will not) reach their potential? Is it possible that a college may have incorrectly judged the potential, or completely missed an NAHL prospect? I think the answer to these questions are yes, and combined with a very large pool of talent across the US,.....contributes to the fact tha actual quality of play between the two leagues is not much different.

Of course, without actual interleague play, we will never know. For reasons mentioned in an earlier post, it will never happen. However, for any player with an opportunity (yes, an opportunity, these teams are not easily made) to play in the NAHL, know that you are playing in a very competitive and talented hockey league, arguably as good as any league in the US.

[Blue&Gold]

I'm a bit confused as to some of your points. Not that they're not good points, it's just a bit fuzzy for me.

Before you ask, I've seen several USHL and NAHL games this season. I have first hand knowledge of both leagues and players in both leagues.

If what I think I hear is that in order to be in the USHL, you have to have had college contact first. I know for a fact that is false. Many of the players in the USHL are still looking for the D1 connection. Most will find it, though.

Are the top level of players (1/4?) of the NAHL every bit as good as the bottom level (1/4?) of the USHL? Probably. Are the VERY top NAHL players (1/10) as good as the VERY top USHL players (1/10?)? NO..

The game action in a typical USHL games is faster and crisper than the typical NAHL game. The players in the USHL are, for the most part, going to be D1 players in a year or two. And MOST of them will make an impact on the game at those schools before they move on. It has nothing to do with being contacted before juniors and going to the USHL because of that. I think it mostly has to do with the fact that the player is (generally) a better player over all.

Would the absolute top NAHL team be able to play with a middle-of-the-pack USHL team? My guess that in a best-of-7 it would go to six games at the most.

But it's all opinion as we'll not see the two leagues play each other any time soon.

[Knowlzee]

Not necessarily referring to direct player-college contact before juniors, but lets just say that many colleges may have some influence as to who gets chosen for USHL teams. Obviously, the entire team is not selected from college input, but most players. The USHL exists to move players to college, they will listen to their clients.

Blue&Gold's opinions in paragraphs 4,5, and 6, may be entirely correct,....or not. The USHL should consist of more better players, it is the higher level. However, the level of play does not seem all that different to me,....but there must be a difference, right. It's a different level. However, I truly believe the age/maturity of the NAHL somewhat balances the talent level of the USHL. USHL must still be be better though, right.

The bottom line is we will never actually know, since they will never actually play.

[goldy313]

The recruiting statistics are a bit skewed in a couple of ways though.

1) DI programs sign a kid during his high school years and sends him to the USHL before he ever plays in a college game, then the USHL takes credit for him becoming a DI recruit when, in truth, he already was a DI kid before he ever put on a USHL sweater, and in reality had he gone and played adult rec league for a season he'd probably still be headed to to College. i.e. Alex Kangas

2) A DI program signs a high school kid, then the kid goes and plays a few USHL games after his high school season ends and the USHL again claims him. i.e. Matt Niskanen and Aaron Marvin

3) Just going to a DI program and the USHL and others will claim you. If you're going to West Point it's not because you're a hockey player; playing hockey is just part of your committment - every student has to play a sport. I went to Iowa State on a football scholarship, ISU didn't even have hockey for pete's sake yet I was on the DI alumni page for 20 years after leaving the Austin Mavericks.

I have nothing against the USHL, but as Mark Twain said "There's lies, damn lies, and statistics." You need to see where those statistics come from to get the whole story.

[Observer85]

Back on March 30th I wrote the following:

Stu Bickel, started last season in the USHL, in Green Bay. He had 0 points in 14 games and was released/traded (whatever you want to call it). In Owatonna, he put up 20 points in 38 games as both a forward and sometime defenseman. This year, he is playing in Sioux Falls, strictly as a defenseman and has 10 points in 50 games. As an older player, he has been a captain for the team (they rotate like the Wild do).

Posted on Gopher Puck Live website that Stu will be attending the University of Minnesota next fall. He has paid his dues and congrats on the coming 4 years.