Seeding

[Knowlzee]

Paragraph 1,....First of all, what is wrong with a "lesser team" advancing?

Paragraph 2,....They are not ALL EXACTLY the same, but for the most part they are all very good, a team or two may be a notch below, but certainly all good teams, or they wouldn't be there?

Paragraph 3,....The MAJORITY are the same, or very near, not enough difference to be concerned, even with the one or two "lesser teams".

Pargraph 4,....it is not about trust,....but a "group of coaches" should disband the group, and each go coach a team, something they each know more about. No person/group (or machine) needs to decide anything here, just go play, when the tournament is done,....we will all know the winner.

Paragraph 5,....There is no need to trust, or distrust,.....a random draw, it is,...what it is. Teams just go win three games against other section champs, and become a State Champion. Toughest game may be any of the three. Fans watch ALL games, because any may be the best game.

Neut, take Friday off work,....Packerboy, don't stay at the Liffey too long to miss second session,.....HSHockeywatcher, get off your computer, get your nose out of the book, skip classa day or two,.....and enjoy ALL the games,.....and the players in the tournament can make the determinations as to which team is better. CNT gets it.

[Can't Never Tried]

Paragraph 1,....First of all, what is wrong with a "lesser team" advancing?

Paragraph 2,....They are not ALL EXACTLY the same, but for the most part they are all very good, a team or two may be a notch below, but certainly all good teams, or they wouldn't be there?

Paragraph 3,....The MAJORITY are the same, or very near, not enough difference to be concerned, even with the one or two "lesser teams".

Pargraph 4,....it is not about trust,....but a "group of coaches" should disband the group, and each go coach a team, something they each know more about. No person/group (or machine) needs to decide anything here, just go play, when the tournament is done,....we will all know the winner.

Paragraph 5,....There is no need to trust, or distrust,.....a random draw, it is,...what it is. Teams just go win three games against other section champs, and become a State Champion. Toughest game may be any of the three. Fans watch ALL games, because any may be the best game.

Neut, take Friday off work,....Packerboy, don't stay at the Liffey too long to miss second session,.....HSHockeywatcher, get off your computer, get your nose out of the book, skip classa day or two,.....and enjoy ALL the games,.....and the players in the tournament can make the determinations as to which team is better. CNT gets it.

Must a been the college?

BTW BIAFP I agree with your last comment how about that.

[packerboy]

Knowlzee,

1. Nothing is wrong with a lesser team advancing. I dont care who wins after they seed them.

2. Thats contrary to everyones experience. Many teams that are average or just above have made it to the state tournament because they are from weak sections or because of upsets in the sections.

3. Nonsense. see above.

4. Coaches are best at coaching but they also know most about the teams. Even if they havent seen them, they know who the players are and they all have reliable sources. The HS hockey "world" in MN is pretty small these days.

5. Rhetoric

I have to admit that I have stayed too long at the Liffey, but never so long that I missed a game.

[Knowlzee]

This issue of seeding the State Tournament is totally insignificant. It is definately one the least important issues ever debated on this "bored". It is the State Tournament, all good teams, does it really matter, who plays who, and when?

This issue is so insignificant, I could easily change my mind and agree with Packerboy,....seed 'em. But, quit frankly, it is so insignificant,....that it is a waste of time, space, and energy to get a committee together to seed them,......so why bother,....use the random format that was generated years ago, and call it good.

And what a waste of time debating such insignificance,......but it sure was fun.

P.S. How about a "Flat Tax",.......now that's a level sheet of ice. But, I suppose you Minnesota Nice guys like that "Progressive Tax" (advantage bottom),.....even though you're pro Seeding (advantage top),.....go figure.

[packerboy]

I agree. But it is interesting to see that the oposition to it is based on a real reluctance to trust the process to the coaches.

We trust them with our sons everyday for 4 months but not to seed some teams for a tournament.

Interesting. Where do you suppose that comes from?

[hipcheck]

Were the Rams the best? No (not on paper)

Would not seeding this year changed the outcome? Who knows.

Really, bring a good team to state. Have some luck. Win the title.

Karma????

[Knowlzee]

Trusting that a coach can teach/coach hockey,....is different than trusting that he knows the quality of all section championship teams (he knows some teams very well, and others probably not very well at all). In a ranking process, if he doesn't know about all teams very well,.....what good is it to know anything? At that point, it may be better to know nothing,......Colonel Klink.

Interesting question Packerboy, maybe the answer to your question is based on what was learned over the last "4 months". What are you implying?

[Can't Never Tried]

I agree. But it is interesting to see that the oposition to it is based on a real reluctance to trust the process to the coaches.

We trust them with our sons everyday for 4 months but not to seed some teams for a tournament.

Interesting. Where do you suppose that comes from?

Trust or Tolerate? if we don't choose our school we have little choice of who the coaches are.

If your not teaching your kids to question, and even doubt at times others who proclaim authority, they will merely be sheep that follow and never the shepard to lead, as there is someone who always can decide better for us. sound familar?
I heard something like that before......
What thread was that in???? I think it's in the cafe now??

[HShockeywatcher]

Knowlzee, comparing seeding to taxes is apples and oranges.

Well, with most of you just saying things are wrong, there isn't much to say when you're arguing with people who don't admit when the other side makes points. The point I'd like to make is that this argument (more than about what you get from playing a good season) is about the other teams other than the winner. If they gave out one trophy you'd get no argument from me about seeding whatsoever. But they gives out 5 trophies (right?). Well, in an unseeded bracket 5th and 2nd are the same (possibly 3rd too). And 4th and 6th are the same. The reason you seed isn't only for the top guy, it's for the rest of the playing field.

From the people I've talked to from WI they only give out one trophy; the state champ. If that's how you're going to do it, then put the teams alphabetical if you want. But when you introduce any more trophies seeding is necessary. If you won't take it from me or the few others on here who've said it do a little research and someone with a PhD in stats will say the same thing.

[Knowlzee]

First of all, comparing taxes to seeding, is like comparing the "advantage" given to some, when our government takes our money with the "advantage" given to a team, when a tournament is seeded,.......it has NOTHING to do with the difference in two fruits.

Seeding should not be used in the State Tournament. For instance, what if the #1 ranked team and the #2 ranked team (as determined by a committee of "trusting coaches") were paired against each other played in the Thursday afternoon session (determined by the old fashioned rotation system). At least the game would have been played,....not on Friday or Saturday night,....but at least played.

I suppose it wouldn't matter for some of you guys anyway, as on Thurdsday,.....Neut would be "working",.....Packerboy may be having one too many at the Liffey,......and HShockeywatcher would be in "Stats class". But, CNT and I would have enjoyed the game!

With the Trusting Coaches Seeding System (TCSS), what if #7 seed upsets #2 seed. Possibly the best game in the tournament would not have EVER been played......and now a 2nd round game is screwed up too,......and we have #1 facing a #4/#5 team in the final. TCSS just failed, may as well pull'em out of a hat. Once again our forefathers had it right with the old fashioned rotation system.

Seeding is for farmers and gardeners!

[Can't Never Tried]

First of all, comparing taxes to seeding, is like comparing the "advantage" given to some, when our government takes our money with the "advantage" given to a team, when a tournament is seeded,.......it has NOTHING to do with the difference in two fruits.

Seeding should not be used in the State Tournament. For instance, what if the #1 ranked team and the #2 ranked team (as determined by a committee of "trusting coaches") were paired against each other played in the Thursday afternoon session (determined by the old fashioned rotation system). At least the game would have been played,....not on Friday or Saturday night,....but at least played.

I suppose it wouldn't matter for some of you guys anyway, as on Thurdsday,.....Neut would be "working",.....Packerboy may be having one too many at the Liffey,......and HShockeywatcher would be in "Stats class". But, CNT and I would have enjoyed the game!

With the Trusting Coaches Seeding System (TCSS), what if #7 seed upsets #2 seed. Possibly the best game in the tournament would not have EVER been played......and now a 2nd round game is screwed up too,......and we have #1 facing a #4/#5 team in the final. TCSS just failed, may as well pull'em out of a hat. Once again our forefathers had it right with the old fashioned rotation system.

Seeding is for farmers and gardeners!

<<< knowlzee and CNT at Thursday's game!
<<PB at Liffey's
<< neut at work

<<<Seeding is for farmers

<<<(TCSS)


<<<CNT and Knowlzee after the game!



Oh yeah>>>> guess who??

[Knowlzee]

Yup,.....CNT gets it!

P.S. Seeding is for farmers and gardners.

[HShockeywatcher]

You guys are running yourself in circles here. Over half the people that voted think all 8 should be seeded, then a forth say 4 is fine, but you continue to argue for the one fifth of the people who voted.

When it comes to people transferring people are in total agreement with the MSHSL. But here the MSHSL (and many of the coaches involved) have shown they want it to be seeded. Maybe it will never get to 8 (hopefully it does) but they have still shown they want it seeded. At this point arguing to not have it seeded won't get you anywhere. But since it is clear you like talking to yourselves, that shouldn't be an issue.

The big thing I still don't understand is why people want things to be up to chance. Yes, all the tournaments have been great and had many good games, but why would you want to just have it up to chance as to who plays who? OR, if you're going to argue for that, why not argue for it to actually be by chance instead of the sections being on a rotation. When it's on a rotation there isn't really chance involved.

Why not have something like 1v5, 4v8, 2v7, and 3v6 so that every game is equally fair of the type of opponent someone has? Regardless of which side you are on, why would you want the competition level for certain teams to be totally different for the different teams?

[packerboy]

Trusting that a coach can teach/coach hockey,....is different than trusting that he knows the quality of all section championship teams (he knows some teams very well, and others probably not very well at all). In a ranking process, if he doesn't know about all teams very well,.....what good is it to know anything? At that point, it may be better to know nothing,......Colonel Klink.

Interesting question Packerboy, maybe the answer to your question is based on what was learned over the last "4 months". What are you implying?

What I am implyng is that our society has turned into a mindless world of mandatory sentencing; mandatory guidelines; arbitrary rules and regulations; and we even prefer a "lottery" over a decision by a person or group of people who are otherwise trustworthy.

Its like the movie 2001: A Space Odyessy except its taking a little longer. Soon we will just ask HAL to decide everything.

This great country of ours was built by gov't, ie decision making,of the people , for the people , by the people.

In other words, being against seeding is being against America.

Lets us begin again to trust the process of decision making, even if we dont always agree with the decision.

Pretty deep ,eh?

[HShockeywatcher]

Although I think both the america and taxes argument tax this way too far, if you're going to support your taxes argument, I think the whole American one kinda trumps you.

If you don't like the idea of putting it in the hands of the coaches who made it, why not change how the seeding is done? Personally I'd prefer they paid some guy to come up with a ranking system and tweak it every year and then it would be completely unbiased, with no complaining out of everyone.

[packerboy]

Yup, if you pay some one then all of our problems will be solved.

Hey, I know , lets authorize funds for a committee to study the whole issue.

We will call it a "blue ribbon committee' and we will flush thousands of dollars down the toilet on the whole deal.

Democrats.

[Can't Never Tried]

Yup, if you pay some one then all of our problems will be solved.

Hey, I know , lets authorize funds for a committee to study the whole issue.

We will call it a "blue ribbon committee' and we will flush thousands of dollars down the toilet on the whole deal.

Democrats.

That's funny seriously funny (BRC)

Hey HSWatcher,
Why would the ranking system need tweaking each year?

[Neutron 14]

If you don't like the idea of putting it in the hands of the coaches who made it, why not change how the seeding is done? Personally I'd prefer they paid some guy to come up with a ranking system and tweak it every year and then it would be completely unbiased, with no complaining out of everyone.

Any ranking system is biased to some degree. Even PS2. Anytime "correctors" are used, anytime certain games are ommitted, anytime the most recent game is weighted higher, its biased. Coaches are biased for sure, but they don't get to vote for their team. But they can vote against others.

Its the human element. Live with it, or let HAL rule our lives. If we didn't have faith in people to make decisions, we wouldn't have jurys. Like packerboy says, If we didn't have faith in people to make decisions, we wouldn't have America.

God Bless America!

[Knowlzee]

Ahhhh, Packerboy, are you feeling ok?

Why can't it just be all "decided" on the ice,.....like our forefathers intended,.....with the old fashioned rotation system?

The only "decision" that needs to made on this one, is what Knowlzee and CNT are drinking after the Thursday games.

[Can't Never Tried]

OK one human can pick the #'s out of the hat
The other 7 can the drinks for Knowlzee and I

[HShockeywatcher]

It could need tweaking each year if you find something that needs to be more heavily weighted that wasn't the year before.

Putting heavier emphasis on more current games makes sense because that is the team that is going. But yes, you are right, any system is biased. But in the case of a ranking system every team is biased the same way, unlike when people are voted, those are all biased in different ways.

It wouldn't be wasting money because there is probably a system out there somewhere that could be used, or this could be bought from somewhere. Whenever money's brought up at all people always assuming it's a waste of money, but it wouldn't need to be.

[packerboy]

Thats right Neut, "Stand beside her and guide her" just like the song says.

Wait a minute...who decides who draws the names out of a hat...and while we are at it, who says we should use a hat.

I think Knowlzee and CNT should just buy a big Wheel of Fortune and every time a decision needs to be made, spin that sucker and see what happens. (Vanna not included)

Much better than having an actual person decide it. He might be biased.

[Can't Never Tried]

Thats right Neut, "Stand beside her and guide her" just like the song says.

Wait a minute...who decides who draws the names out of a hat...and while we are at it, who says we should use a hat.

I think Knowlzee and CNT should just buy a big Wheel of Fortune and every time a decision needs to be made, spin that sucker and see what happens. (Vanna not included)

Much better than having an actual person decide it. He might be biased.

Same person who spins the wheel
Vanna works for me

Actually PB why don't you pick the seeds? you wouldn't be biased would you? and you also wouldn't be affected by those that would say you are biased, whether you were or not...right?

Ya see although I think any reasonably intelligent person with some hockey experience that follows the game could come up with a 1-8 seeding, another equal person could come up with something slightly different and that's all it takes...you are at a disagreement, now do it with a group of 8, if that's the # of people in TCSS they would use.

Also,
A hat is traditional for pulling things out of, but a hockey helmet would work just as well...as long as it had a dangler mask.


I still have hard time with you wanting a group of people to make these decisions, isn't this the same MSHSL that you were upset with for the OE issue, now you are willing to put this too in their hands? just asking!

[Neutron 14]

I still have hard time with you wanting a group of people to make these decisions, isn't this the same MSHSL that you were upset with for the OE issue, now you are willing to put this too in their hands? just asking!

The fictional evil MSHSL. If you don't like 2 classes, blame them. If you don't like the transfer changes, blame them. Who are they? They are the representatives of the schools themselves. Lets blame the schools themselves for administrating their league in a manner they see fit. Lets call it unfair, bureaucratic, and un-American.

[Can't Never Tried]

I still have hard time with you wanting a group of people to make these decisions, isn't this the same MSHSL that you were upset with for the OE issue, now you are willing to put this too in their hands? just asking!

The fictional evil MSHSL. If you don't like 2 classes, blame them. If you don't like the transfer changes, blame them. Who are they? They are the representatives of the schools themselves. Lets blame the schools themselves for administrating their league in a manner they see fit. Lets call it unfair, bureaucratic, and un-American.

Neut we must blame someone

I say we blame that AD in ...what was it Red Wing?? where you can't stand up at games. that's the type I want administrating a real level head there huh?