topshelf10, if what I have written makes the school look bad, that's sad. Most of what I write isn't even school specific. It's cool when the school does well, but it's also nice to see these players go off and do great things.
I won't post much, if at all, for a while. But how bout try telling the people who are commenting on my stuff to stop for a change?
Anders Lee
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
HShockeywatcher, if you can't stand the heat maybe you do need to get out of the kitchen. Some of the posters here did take some unfair potshots at you, but there were some good measured responses to the things you've said and if those bother you, you do need to take a look at yourself. I've always enjoyed the rancor that your posts seem to stir up, it makes for an interesting board.
You've been a staunch defender of class A and it's true that there is a lot of talent in that class. I think the difference between Class A and AA is the depth, the top AA teams can roll out 2 or 3 good lines whereas the Class A teams usually have one top line. That Edina team is stacked and one thing to consider is that Anders will probably face a higher level of talent in practice than he would at STA.
You've been a staunch defender of class A and it's true that there is a lot of talent in that class. I think the difference between Class A and AA is the depth, the top AA teams can roll out 2 or 3 good lines whereas the Class A teams usually have one top line. That Edina team is stacked and one thing to consider is that Anders will probably face a higher level of talent in practice than he would at STA.
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HShockeywatcher
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ChrisK,
It's not at all that I can't take the heat, it's the people who tell me I make a certain school look bad, and other similar comments. I don't see how I've destroyed anything. Most of what I am arguing has nothing to do with school specifics, but more about a hockey class as a whole, which contains what, 70ish schools? Yes, just like you I enjoy what it stirs up, and it makes for great discussion, which is why I post on a discussion board
I just wish people, along with the bashing, would do more commenting on things people say.
Thanks for agreeing with EXACTLY what I've said. It's all about depth through and through. Not anything to disagree with in your 2nd paragraph at all, in fact I couldn't agree more. For specific individuals, going from one class to a higher class in two schools that are both top of their class is a great move.
As I've said before, personally I just wouldn't do it when there are two other sports where he won't get the same exposure. Maybe being about to play QB plays a role. I just think it's funny that people who breach "stay where you are" think this move is fine, it's speaking out both sides of your mouth. I like Anders, he's a great guy and this is probably a great move for his hockey career.
It's not at all that I can't take the heat, it's the people who tell me I make a certain school look bad, and other similar comments. I don't see how I've destroyed anything. Most of what I am arguing has nothing to do with school specifics, but more about a hockey class as a whole, which contains what, 70ish schools? Yes, just like you I enjoy what it stirs up, and it makes for great discussion, which is why I post on a discussion board
I just wish people, along with the bashing, would do more commenting on things people say.Thanks for agreeing with EXACTLY what I've said. It's all about depth through and through. Not anything to disagree with in your 2nd paragraph at all, in fact I couldn't agree more. For specific individuals, going from one class to a higher class in two schools that are both top of their class is a great move.
As I've said before, personally I just wouldn't do it when there are two other sports where he won't get the same exposure. Maybe being about to play QB plays a role. I just think it's funny that people who breach "stay where you are" think this move is fine, it's speaking out both sides of your mouth. I like Anders, he's a great guy and this is probably a great move for his hockey career.
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thestickler07
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1. Packerboy, How many games do they play in the state tournament now? There ya go. They ONLY make additions for 6 teams, consolation bracket, 3rd place, and championship. So less than half of the teams will be playing 4 games. And also WBL wouldn't have to beat HM, STA would. This inherently groups most/all privates together in the lower A brackets and makes them knock each other off. You could also do the tourney Tues-Sat and play all games at the X, or do Wed-Sat, and play some games at Mariucci. Also, who wouldn't want to play for THE state title, instead of the AA title?packerboy wrote:OK, fine stickler. We will argue with you then.
1. A 16 team tournament probably wont happen because it wold take too long unless they can play 4 games in 4 days. In addition,AA schools are never going to agree to play A schools in the same tournament and I dont blame them.
Why would White Bear Lake agree to play STA in the same tournament when STA got there by beating Lacresent and Red Wing and WBL got there by beatng HM and Roseville.
2. Neither Neut nor I give a flyng flip what level STA plays at. He has kids at Centennial and I have kids at CDH. We dont care. But when STA fans such as HS wonder why a kid would leave to play at the hgher levels of his sports, we are nice enough to try and explain it to him. BTW, HS is not a retard and his thinking process is shared by many STA fans.
3. Your reasons for STA not opting up are limp at best. CDH doesnt have a football field. They play at the Highland rink and they don't have any more baseball fields than STA does. Facilities arent the reason.
The reason is because they want to win and win consistently. Staying in the lower classes allows them to do that. Why not just admit that?
2. Again, please reread, I have stated the best know logic for why St. Thomas doesn't opt up, there are exceptions to the rule for facilities off course, but I'm talking about being in the same league as the bigger schools. Generally, AA schools are bigger, have more money/facilities than smaller A schools. Even if not all AA schools are better than all A schools in all sports. Cretin doesn't have a football field on campus, they practice on a beautiful turf field less than 10 minutes from CDH.
3. They want to win consistently? Umm, doesn't every sports team want to do that? I don't quite see your point. In my eyes, the goal of winning consistently in an Athletic Department is to gain recognition and acclaim for your programs, every school knows that the AA tourney gets more publicity and is more prestigious than the A tournament. Winning A alot does not prove much in the grand scheme of things.
4. Ok, you obviously know CDH has many intangibles in many athletic programs (baseball, football primarily) that other schools don't have. When you have the tradition of those strong programs, talented kids will want to play for you. Not recruited, but kids will be drawn to the program. CDH has a much richer history of success in baseball than STA, or any program in the state, as such, they attract better players. STA SHOULD OPT UP!!!<<<<<You are reading it from me, an STA alum. They are not my reasons, they are the schools reasons, reread my response again and notice that I don't care about what you think of the reasons, because crying about it won't change their mind. Email Jack Zahr, the STA AD if you have a beef with it. Believe me, many people have.
P.S. What kind of thinking is shared by HS and other STA fans?
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thestickler07
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HShockeywatcher
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Interesting point stickler that I never thought of; all season most people on here are private school bashers. Well, I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a private school in state that has AA enrollment (maybe CDH). So, why not support no opt ups, then those private schools couldn't be playing for THE beloved state title?
Thanks for saying the one thing I've been saying for the longest time; whining on here does nothing as far as specific schools opting up goes. I won't agree that the Cadets should opt up this year because of all the people that have left, but if a little kid who's at Ann Arbor right now hadn't gone there, I'd say they should've last year.
Email/call/send letters to ADs or the MSHSL if you feel strongly about the class programs should be in.
Thanks for saying the one thing I've been saying for the longest time; whining on here does nothing as far as specific schools opting up goes. I won't agree that the Cadets should opt up this year because of all the people that have left, but if a little kid who's at Ann Arbor right now hadn't gone there, I'd say they should've last year.
Email/call/send letters to ADs or the MSHSL if you feel strongly about the class programs should be in.
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HShockeywatcher
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If you guys really think the top D3 teams couldn't do well, or even win, against the bottom D1 teams that's an issue I can't help you with. But it's like that in all sports. I don't need to give examples.
Even moreso, the point I was making was that every AA team isn't better than every A school. But everyone knows that.
Even moreso, the point I was making was that every AA team isn't better than every A school. But everyone knows that.
The stickler wrote:
1. Packerboy, How many games do they play in the state tournament now? There ya go. They ONLY make additions for 6 teams, consolation bracket, 3rd place, and championship. So less than half of the teams will be playing 4 games. And also WBL wouldn't have to beat HM, STA would. This inherently groups most/all privates together in the lower A brackets and makes them knock each other off. You could also do the tourney Tues-Sat and play all games at the X, or do Wed-Sat, and play some games at Mariucci. Also, who wouldn't want to play for THE state title, instead of the AA title?
2. Again, please reread, I have stated the best know logic for why St. Thomas doesn't opt up, there are exceptions to the rule for facilities off course, but I'm talking about being in the same league as the bigger schools. Generally, AA schools are bigger, have more money/facilities than smaller A schools. Even if not all AA schools are better than all A schools in all sports. Cretin doesn't have a football field on campus, they practice on a beautiful turf field less than 10 minutes from CDH.
3. They want to win consistently? Umm, doesn't every sports team want to do that? I don't quite see your point. In my eyes, the goal of winning consistently in an Athletic Department is to gain recognition and acclaim for your programs, every school knows that the AA tourney gets more publicity and is more prestigious than the A tournament. Winning A alot does not prove much in the grand scheme of things.
4. Ok, you obviously know CDH has many intangibles in many athletic programs (baseball, football primarily) that other schools don't have. When you have the tradition of those strong programs, talented kids will want to play for you. Not recruited, but kids will be drawn to the program. CDH has a much richer history of success in baseball than STA, or any program in the state, as such, they attract better players. STA SHOULD OPT UP!!!<<<<<You are reading it from me, an STA alum. They are not my reasons, they are the schools reasons, reread my response again and notice that I don't care about what you think of the reasons, because crying about it won't change their mind. Email Jack Zahr, the STA AD if you have a beef with it. Believe me, many people have.
P.S. What kind of thinking is shared by HS and other STA fans
1. Four is more than 3 and some think playing 3 in 3 nights, especially with the new 17 minute periods is too much. Remember this all started with 12 minute periods and no checking in the offensive zone 60 years ago.
2,3 and 4. If you are OK with the primary goal being to win consistently, then why email the AD? He has decided that winnng consistently to promote the athletic programs at STA is the prime goal. They dont get on TV if they opt up in the major sports. If your response is "well they could beat a lot of AA teams" then you have answered the question posed in your PS.
In further response to your PS , THE state title is the AA title.
1. Packerboy, How many games do they play in the state tournament now? There ya go. They ONLY make additions for 6 teams, consolation bracket, 3rd place, and championship. So less than half of the teams will be playing 4 games. And also WBL wouldn't have to beat HM, STA would. This inherently groups most/all privates together in the lower A brackets and makes them knock each other off. You could also do the tourney Tues-Sat and play all games at the X, or do Wed-Sat, and play some games at Mariucci. Also, who wouldn't want to play for THE state title, instead of the AA title?
2. Again, please reread, I have stated the best know logic for why St. Thomas doesn't opt up, there are exceptions to the rule for facilities off course, but I'm talking about being in the same league as the bigger schools. Generally, AA schools are bigger, have more money/facilities than smaller A schools. Even if not all AA schools are better than all A schools in all sports. Cretin doesn't have a football field on campus, they practice on a beautiful turf field less than 10 minutes from CDH.
3. They want to win consistently? Umm, doesn't every sports team want to do that? I don't quite see your point. In my eyes, the goal of winning consistently in an Athletic Department is to gain recognition and acclaim for your programs, every school knows that the AA tourney gets more publicity and is more prestigious than the A tournament. Winning A alot does not prove much in the grand scheme of things.
4. Ok, you obviously know CDH has many intangibles in many athletic programs (baseball, football primarily) that other schools don't have. When you have the tradition of those strong programs, talented kids will want to play for you. Not recruited, but kids will be drawn to the program. CDH has a much richer history of success in baseball than STA, or any program in the state, as such, they attract better players. STA SHOULD OPT UP!!!<<<<<You are reading it from me, an STA alum. They are not my reasons, they are the schools reasons, reread my response again and notice that I don't care about what you think of the reasons, because crying about it won't change their mind. Email Jack Zahr, the STA AD if you have a beef with it. Believe me, many people have.
P.S. What kind of thinking is shared by HS and other STA fans
1. Four is more than 3 and some think playing 3 in 3 nights, especially with the new 17 minute periods is too much. Remember this all started with 12 minute periods and no checking in the offensive zone 60 years ago.
2,3 and 4. If you are OK with the primary goal being to win consistently, then why email the AD? He has decided that winnng consistently to promote the athletic programs at STA is the prime goal. They dont get on TV if they opt up in the major sports. If your response is "well they could beat a lot of AA teams" then you have answered the question posed in your PS.
In further response to your PS , THE state title is the AA title.
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thestickler07
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1. Fine, have the Round of 16 games at neutral sites in the section's home area. Have 1A play 1AA in Rochester, 8A play 8AA at the Ralph, or maybe a bigger venue in St. Cloud, don't nit pick specifics packerboy. Play the games on the Sunday before the trip to St. Paul. Who wouldn't want to see another Roseau vs Warroad game? Maybe STA vs CDH in the Coliseum for the right to represent the St. Paul side? Lourdes vs Century, Hermantown vs East, AHA vs Edina. Talk about amazing matchups. How can you seriously argue that this wouldn't be a better idea than what we have now? And you, of all people, arguing about the kids playing hockey too much? You think those kids would be bugged about playing 4 games in a week? And what happened to not wanting to water down competition with multiple classes?packerboy wrote:
1. Four is more than 3 and some think playing 3 in 3 nights, especially with the new 17 minute periods is too much. Remember this all started with 12 minute periods and no checking in the offensive zone 60 years ago.
2,3 and 4. If you are OK with the primary goal being to win consistently, then why email the AD? He has decided that winnng consistently to promote the athletic programs at STA is the prime goal. They dont get on TV if they opt up in the major sports. If your response is "well they could beat a lot of AA teams" then you have answered the question posed in your PS.
In further response to your PS , THE state title is the AA title.
2-4. Athletic programs want attention, more attention is served to the higher class champions, honestly, who watches tv at noon on a saturday to catch the AAAA state football championship? or the hockey class A title game? Playing in the top class gives you the most exposure, which just about any school would want. STA, imo, will inevitably opt up. Just deal with the fact that they are currently playing where they are assigned. Believe me, it irks me they are playing down too, the difference, I don't complain and cry about it on a hockey forum.
AA title is the more competitive, more prestigious, more publicized title game. But the winner is called the champion of class AA, not the State of Minnesota. We should stop watering these things down and go to 1 tournament.
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HShockeywatcher
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I know I irk people with what I say, but I still don't understand why people think hockey is different. Yes, sure, size doesn't matter, necessarily, but it has to do with depth, as it does in all sports, as I have demonstrated.
Why does this sport get to have one class? Why is it the norm in this sport to opt up if you think you're too good for the class you're in? Why do we think that the winner of the highest class is necessarily the best team in state?
I know it probably won't happen, but instead of just calling me names and telling me my ideas are dumb, could you explain why you feel that way?
Another thing that people need to understand is that there is a thing called upsets, which is what they are. Winning a title doesn't give you a shoe in to be the best team in state, it means you played the best in the post season and won. This isn't a tennis forum at all, but Roger Federer is one of the best, if not the best, tennis player that ever walked the earth. If he gets upset and loses early in a tournament, that doesn't mean that he's not the best. Same is with MN hockey. If Burnsville, for example, had won this year I'm not sure how many people would've said they were the best team in state. I'm not trying to discredit the state tournament, but winning it doesn't make you the best all of a sudden.
Why does this sport get to have one class? Why is it the norm in this sport to opt up if you think you're too good for the class you're in? Why do we think that the winner of the highest class is necessarily the best team in state?
I know it probably won't happen, but instead of just calling me names and telling me my ideas are dumb, could you explain why you feel that way?
Another thing that people need to understand is that there is a thing called upsets, which is what they are. Winning a title doesn't give you a shoe in to be the best team in state, it means you played the best in the post season and won. This isn't a tennis forum at all, but Roger Federer is one of the best, if not the best, tennis player that ever walked the earth. If he gets upset and loses early in a tournament, that doesn't mean that he's not the best. Same is with MN hockey. If Burnsville, for example, had won this year I'm not sure how many people would've said they were the best team in state. I'm not trying to discredit the state tournament, but winning it doesn't make you the best all of a sudden.
The stickler wrote: 1. Fine, have the Round of 16 games at neutral sites in the section's home area. Have 1A play 1AA in Rochester, 8A play 8AA at the Ralph, or maybe a bigger venue in St. Cloud, don't nit pick specifics packerboy. Play the games on the Sunday before the trip to St. Paul. Who wouldn't want to see another Roseau vs Warroad game? Maybe STA vs CDH in the Coliseum for the right to represent the St. Paul side? Lourdes vs Century, Hermantown vs East, AHA vs Edina. Talk about amazing matchups. How can you seriously argue that this wouldn't be a better idea than what we have now? And you, of all people, arguing about the kids playing hockey too much? You think those kids would be bugged about playing 4 games in a week? And what happened to not wanting to water down competition with multiple classes?
Stickler, the State Tournament is played in St Paul at the X. Not in Rochester nor at The Ralph nor St Cloud The Sections are played there. We already have great section championship games played there.
The tournament should be at one venue. They did the remote thing in basketball and it was awful. They played the quarters at remote locatons and it did not have any of the feel of a state tournament.
As far as a STA vs CDH for something other than bragging rights and to make it a real rivalry, all STA has to do is write a little letter and mail it to the local MSHSL opting up.
The stickler also wrote:
2-4. Athletic programs want attention, more attention is served to the higher class champions, honestly, who watches tv at noon on a saturday to catch the AAAA state football championship? or the hockey class A title game? Playing in the top class gives you the most exposure, which just about any school would want. STA, imo, will inevitably opt up. Just deal with the fact that they are currently playing where they are assigned. Believe me, it irks me they are playing down too, the difference, I don't complain and cry about it on a hockey forum.
STA gets plenty of TV exposure now. They were in the major sport tournaments the last few years. Its posibe they could have pulled off an upset in BBall or hockey and gone to one state tournament if they played at the highest class. Maybe.
But no chance in football.
So , some exposure in the lower classes is better than none or very little in the highest. STA seeks exposure for its programs and pub for the school not athletic accomplishment at the highest competitive level. I dont care about that. I dont cry about it. It is what it is.
But remember how this discussion got started. HS couldnt understand how a kid could leave to go to Edina.
Stickler, the State Tournament is played in St Paul at the X. Not in Rochester nor at The Ralph nor St Cloud The Sections are played there. We already have great section championship games played there.
The tournament should be at one venue. They did the remote thing in basketball and it was awful. They played the quarters at remote locatons and it did not have any of the feel of a state tournament.
As far as a STA vs CDH for something other than bragging rights and to make it a real rivalry, all STA has to do is write a little letter and mail it to the local MSHSL opting up.
The stickler also wrote:
2-4. Athletic programs want attention, more attention is served to the higher class champions, honestly, who watches tv at noon on a saturday to catch the AAAA state football championship? or the hockey class A title game? Playing in the top class gives you the most exposure, which just about any school would want. STA, imo, will inevitably opt up. Just deal with the fact that they are currently playing where they are assigned. Believe me, it irks me they are playing down too, the difference, I don't complain and cry about it on a hockey forum.
STA gets plenty of TV exposure now. They were in the major sport tournaments the last few years. Its posibe they could have pulled off an upset in BBall or hockey and gone to one state tournament if they played at the highest class. Maybe.
But no chance in football.
So , some exposure in the lower classes is better than none or very little in the highest. STA seeks exposure for its programs and pub for the school not athletic accomplishment at the highest competitive level. I dont care about that. I dont cry about it. It is what it is.
But remember how this discussion got started. HS couldnt understand how a kid could leave to go to Edina.
HS, I will go real slow for you. (Sorry, I couldnt resist)
The reason hockey should be only one class is because school size doesnt matter as you point out. See Roseau for example. Its that simple. That answers all of your questions.
The reason teams are allowed to opt up is because...............Yup thats right folks, school size doesnt matter.
Havng 2 classes in hockey based on enrollment is a joke as we all know because the flippin Class A school champ is a bigger school than the Class AA champ. And what does that prove? ..............Correctomundo, school size doesnt matter.
Does that explain it for you?
The reason hockey should be only one class is because school size doesnt matter as you point out. See Roseau for example. Its that simple. That answers all of your questions.
The reason teams are allowed to opt up is because...............Yup thats right folks, school size doesnt matter.
Havng 2 classes in hockey based on enrollment is a joke as we all know because the flippin Class A school champ is a bigger school than the Class AA champ. And what does that prove? ..............Correctomundo, school size doesnt matter.
Does that explain it for you?
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Can't Never Tried
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packerboy wrote:HS, I will go real slow for you. (Sorry, I couldnt resist)
The reason hockey should be only one class is because school size doesnt matter as you point out. See Roseau for example. Its that simple. That answers all of your questions.
The reason teams are allowed to opt up is because...............Yup thats right folks, school size doesnt matter.
Havng 2 classes in hockey based on enrollment is a joke as we all know because the flippin Class A school champ is a bigger school than the Class AA champ. And what does that prove? ..............Correctomundo, school size doesnt matter.
Does that explain it for you?
Not sure who has hooked who here 
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thestickler07
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- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:00 pm
The football state tournament plays its quarters at alternating section sites, we played in it last year, believe me, our quarterfinal game vs Northfield felt like a state tournament game. Honestly, call it subsection 1A and subsection 1AA if you want. So I guess its just a matter of opinion, I've lived it, it had all the emotion, and pageantry of a state tournament game, and I preferred it played at a smaller, more intimate site.packerboy wrote:The stickler wrote: 1. Fine, have the Round of 16 games at neutral sites in the section's home area. Have 1A play 1AA in Rochester, 8A play 8AA at the Ralph, or maybe a bigger venue in St. Cloud, don't nit pick specifics packerboy. Play the games on the Sunday before the trip to St. Paul. Who wouldn't want to see another Roseau vs Warroad game? Maybe STA vs CDH in the Coliseum for the right to represent the St. Paul side? Lourdes vs Century, Hermantown vs East, AHA vs Edina. Talk about amazing matchups. How can you seriously argue that this wouldn't be a better idea than what we have now? And you, of all people, arguing about the kids playing hockey too much? You think those kids would be bugged about playing 4 games in a week? And what happened to not wanting to water down competition with multiple classes?
Stickler, the State Tournament is played in St Paul at the X. Not in Rochester nor at The Ralph nor St Cloud The Sections are played there. We already have great section championship games played there.
The tournament should be at one venue. They did the remote thing in basketball and it was awful. They played the quarters at remote locatons and it did not have any of the feel of a state tournament.
As far as a STA vs CDH for something other than bragging rights and to make it a real rivalry, all STA has to do is write a little letter and mail it to the local MSHSL opting up.
The stickler also wrote:
2-4. Athletic programs want attention, more attention is served to the higher class champions, honestly, who watches tv at noon on a saturday to catch the AAAA state football championship? or the hockey class A title game? Playing in the top class gives you the most exposure, which just about any school would want. STA, imo, will inevitably opt up. Just deal with the fact that they are currently playing where they are assigned. Believe me, it irks me they are playing down too, the difference, I don't complain and cry about it on a hockey forum.
STA gets plenty of TV exposure now. They were in the major sport tournaments the last few years. Its posibe they could have pulled off an upset in BBall or hockey and gone to one state tournament if they played at the highest class. Maybe.
But no chance in football.
So , some exposure in the lower classes is better than none or very little in the highest. STA seeks exposure for its programs and pub for the school not athletic accomplishment at the highest competitive level. I dont care about that. I dont cry about it. It is what it is.
But remember how this discussion got started. HS couldnt understand how a kid could leave to go to Edina.
I would disagree about exposure at lower levels, I don't think any higher of Triton, a AA football team, I believe, then Stephen Argyle. I don't care about the lower levels honestly.
And again, you are preaching to the choir, STA should opt up.
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thestickler07
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HShockeywatcher
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packerboy, you've just given reasons in a two class system for not allowing teams to opt up.
1. Saying school size doesn't matter is true. What I was saying is that it is also true it doesn't matter in many sports. Which is why I don't understand why hockey is different. This year, for example, the two teams in the 4A final probably would've made it out of their prospective sections in 5A. I've given many examples in the past also. But the one thing the higher class has is depth.
2. Schools opting up, there are many A schools that could do well in AA, AA in AAA, and AAA in AAAA in basketball, but why don't they opt up? Hmmm, maybe it's a class system? Just a thought. Wrestling is the same. I think soccer, not sure. Plenty of other sports too.
3. Having a class system based on enrollment (like all other sports, and like they do with divisions in college) is to have teams with similar POTENTIALS put up against each other. If it was for ability they'd go back to the tier system.
So, to answer your final question, no that doesn't explain anything for me. Just tells me again you think hockey is different with no real backing. If you're going to argue all sports should be classless then you've got something going for ya.
Oh yeah, and baseball also has each of their classes at a different place. Many sports have the consolation bracket somewhere else. Football, as said before, has the quarters not even at the Metrodome. Basketball has some quarters at the Williams and some not. I think what you mentioned was more arguing against what you were trying to say than to support it.
Although with many leaving I don't agree St Thomas should opt up given how they did 4 years ago with people leaving. But I will say I could care less because where they in AA they probably wouldn't lose as many players. So, give that up, no one really cares.
1. Saying school size doesn't matter is true. What I was saying is that it is also true it doesn't matter in many sports. Which is why I don't understand why hockey is different. This year, for example, the two teams in the 4A final probably would've made it out of their prospective sections in 5A. I've given many examples in the past also. But the one thing the higher class has is depth.
2. Schools opting up, there are many A schools that could do well in AA, AA in AAA, and AAA in AAAA in basketball, but why don't they opt up? Hmmm, maybe it's a class system? Just a thought. Wrestling is the same. I think soccer, not sure. Plenty of other sports too.
3. Having a class system based on enrollment (like all other sports, and like they do with divisions in college) is to have teams with similar POTENTIALS put up against each other. If it was for ability they'd go back to the tier system.
So, to answer your final question, no that doesn't explain anything for me. Just tells me again you think hockey is different with no real backing. If you're going to argue all sports should be classless then you've got something going for ya.
Oh yeah, and baseball also has each of their classes at a different place. Many sports have the consolation bracket somewhere else. Football, as said before, has the quarters not even at the Metrodome. Basketball has some quarters at the Williams and some not. I think what you mentioned was more arguing against what you were trying to say than to support it.
Although with many leaving I don't agree St Thomas should opt up given how they did 4 years ago with people leaving. But I will say I could care less because where they in AA they probably wouldn't lose as many players. So, give that up, no one really cares.
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Neutron 14
- Posts: 5339
- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:48 pm
Thye stickler wrote in part:
I would disagree about exposure at lower levels, I don't think any higher of Triton, a AA football team, I believe, then Stephen Argyle. I don't care about the lower levels honestly.
Ahhh stickler, who in the heck would have even heard of Triton and Stephen Argyle if football didnt have about 50 classes? Thats the point. You know about those schools only because of the class system in football.
HS, you are hopeless.
Neut, a lot of people have a bone to pick with that ChrisK character. Brad Radke is the only person who likes him.
I would disagree about exposure at lower levels, I don't think any higher of Triton, a AA football team, I believe, then Stephen Argyle. I don't care about the lower levels honestly.
Ahhh stickler, who in the heck would have even heard of Triton and Stephen Argyle if football didnt have about 50 classes? Thats the point. You know about those schools only because of the class system in football.
HS, you are hopeless.
Neut, a lot of people have a bone to pick with that ChrisK character. Brad Radke is the only person who likes him.
Whew! Finally a post that makes sense.packerboy wrote:HS, I will go real slow for you. (Sorry, I couldnt resist)
The reason hockey should be only one class is because school size doesnt matter as you point out. See Roseau for example. Its that simple. That answers all of your questions.
The reason teams are allowed to opt up is because...............Yup thats right folks, school size doesnt matter.
Havng 2 classes in hockey based on enrollment is a joke as we all know because the flippin Class A school champ is a bigger school than the Class AA champ. And what does that prove? ..............Correctomundo, school size doesnt matter.
Does that explain it for you?
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HShockeywatcher
- Posts: 6848
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:21 pm
Yeah, I'm hopeless because you have to actually use some logic instead of repeating the same thing over and over to get me to keel over.
But the one thing I will hand you is that football (along with a few other sports) does have too many classes. But, that being said, Stephen-Argyle would probably still be on top of whatever class they were in. AND you not knowing about them is a reflection on you, not the state.
Maybe you should start using the logic you say you have instead of just making comments filled with nothing as you have.
But the one thing I will hand you is that football (along with a few other sports) does have too many classes. But, that being said, Stephen-Argyle would probably still be on top of whatever class they were in. AND you not knowing about them is a reflection on you, not the state.
Maybe you should start using the logic you say you have instead of just making comments filled with nothing as you have.
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thestickler07
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:00 pm
Just because I've heard of them, doesn't mean I think any more of them. I concede the point about "being seen" but Stephen Argyle winning 4 or however many titles in a row doesn't impress me any. That was my point.packerboy wrote:Thye stickler wrote in part:
I would disagree about exposure at lower levels, I don't think any higher of Triton, a AA football team, I believe, then Stephen Argyle. I don't care about the lower levels honestly.
Ahhh stickler, who in the heck would have even heard of Triton and Stephen Argyle if football didnt have about 50 classes? Thats the point. You know about those schools only because of the class system in football.
But otherwise, do you like the state tourney idea? Nothing would be better than a sweet 16 format imo.
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HShockeywatcher
- Posts: 6848
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:21 pm
There is no doubt that a sweet 16 would be awesome. Right now you basically have two 64 team tournaments, then you'd just have one (including sectional play) with 128+ teams. Watching the bracket would be really cool.
I think the biggest flaw in the idea is one that has been brought up before. I'll use next year's 4A/4AA and 2A/2AA as an example. Say that St Thomas and Breck pull the upsets and make it to the round of 8. Relatively speaking their only "hard" game would've been their last one, where the team the beat would've had to beat the likes of Holy Angels/Edina/Jefferson/Burnsville or Hill/WBL/Stillwater/Tartan/Roseville. Not sure many people would have a problem with the set up at first, but pending just about any upsets (A beating AA) many would probably not like it.
That being said I think we need to remember two things:
1. The MSHSL doesn't play teams of different classes together in the post season.
2. There are 8 sections in every (just about) other sport in the MSHSL.
If the coaches band together and ask for one class the MSHSL will probably do it (but they went to two originally on the coaches' request). But that is the extent of "hockey's different" that will work. To achieve was you're looking for you'd probably just need to go to one class. With that many schools, section finals would probably be held somewhere cool, and there you'd have a sweet 16 with probably the same desired pairings.
I've always thought it was a cool idea and the ONLY objection I've had is the "hockey's different" approach. You just need to think in the parameters that are there. And based on what's in place, I think that if we go to one class, you'll have what you're after.
I think the biggest flaw in the idea is one that has been brought up before. I'll use next year's 4A/4AA and 2A/2AA as an example. Say that St Thomas and Breck pull the upsets and make it to the round of 8. Relatively speaking their only "hard" game would've been their last one, where the team the beat would've had to beat the likes of Holy Angels/Edina/Jefferson/Burnsville or Hill/WBL/Stillwater/Tartan/Roseville. Not sure many people would have a problem with the set up at first, but pending just about any upsets (A beating AA) many would probably not like it.
That being said I think we need to remember two things:
1. The MSHSL doesn't play teams of different classes together in the post season.
2. There are 8 sections in every (just about) other sport in the MSHSL.
If the coaches band together and ask for one class the MSHSL will probably do it (but they went to two originally on the coaches' request). But that is the extent of "hockey's different" that will work. To achieve was you're looking for you'd probably just need to go to one class. With that many schools, section finals would probably be held somewhere cool, and there you'd have a sweet 16 with probably the same desired pairings.
I've always thought it was a cool idea and the ONLY objection I've had is the "hockey's different" approach. You just need to think in the parameters that are there. And based on what's in place, I think that if we go to one class, you'll have what you're after.
The stickler wrote:
Just because I've heard of them, doesn't mean I think any more of them. I concede the point about "being seen" but Stephen Argyle winning 4 or however many titles in a row doesn't impress me any. That was my point.
But otherwise, do you like the state tourney idea? Nothing would be better than a sweet 16 format imo.
I would be fine with 16 teams if :
1. We go back to one class
2. It could be played at one venue and in a short time span.
There will never be an ageement to mix the 2 classes in a 16 team tournament. AHA vs Albert Lea would not be pretty. In addition, all teams should face the same level of competition in the sections if they are all going to the same state tournament.
The hockey tournamnet is not like the football playoffs. It has its own unique traditions and one of them is a single location for the championship bracket games. The other is that it is played in a short time span. Its an event and a big one.
As far as thinking highly of teams who compete in the lower classes, my attitude is the more power to them so long as that kind of participaton does not diminish the accomplishments nor the experience of those who compete at the highest competitive level.
Hockey does a great job. With the exception of going to Mariucci for the losers on Friday, nothing much has changed the experience for the AA participants and their family and fans as a result of adding Class A.
Just because I've heard of them, doesn't mean I think any more of them. I concede the point about "being seen" but Stephen Argyle winning 4 or however many titles in a row doesn't impress me any. That was my point.
But otherwise, do you like the state tourney idea? Nothing would be better than a sweet 16 format imo.
I would be fine with 16 teams if :
1. We go back to one class
2. It could be played at one venue and in a short time span.
There will never be an ageement to mix the 2 classes in a 16 team tournament. AHA vs Albert Lea would not be pretty. In addition, all teams should face the same level of competition in the sections if they are all going to the same state tournament.
The hockey tournamnet is not like the football playoffs. It has its own unique traditions and one of them is a single location for the championship bracket games. The other is that it is played in a short time span. Its an event and a big one.
As far as thinking highly of teams who compete in the lower classes, my attitude is the more power to them so long as that kind of participaton does not diminish the accomplishments nor the experience of those who compete at the highest competitive level.
Hockey does a great job. With the exception of going to Mariucci for the losers on Friday, nothing much has changed the experience for the AA participants and their family and fans as a result of adding Class A.
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HShockeywatcher
- Posts: 6848
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:21 pm
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Can't Never Tried
- Posts: 4345
- Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:55 pm
HShockeywatcher wrote:I know I irk people with what I say, .
Really!!HShockeywatcher wrote:I'm not trying to discredit the state tournament, but winning it doesn't make you the best all of a sudden.
No just until next years tournament, otherwise what? "yeah we're not the best team... but we did win the state tourney"
Good grief you have to go thru the best to be the best, and you do that in the AA state tourney.
Yes one 16 team tourney would be great.. and I agree with PB, one venue in a short time span, also if it was possible it would be great to have all the games at that one venue and not at others, although I don't think time would allow it, I thought the Colosium was fun
