Barry Bonds

[packerboy]

Bonds is a great hitter.

I am not all that interested in career records since they are as much about longetivity as they are about ability. I mean, would you rather have a player who hit 40 HRs year for 10 or 20 HRs a year for 20.

But his achievments are extraordinary and it is a shame that they are being diminished by peopel who ,IMO, are just plain putting too much emphasis on steroid use.

I dont think it helps ballplayers that much. Football, yah, the weight gain is significant but I dont believe you can hit 755 HRs if you just take some steroids.

Bonds is a geat hitter. Give him his due.

[Neutron 14]

Just put an ass trick next to his and McGwires names in the record books denoting they used performance enhancing drugs.

The same fate should befall Bonds that happened to Ben Johnson and soon to be Landis. They cheated and got caught. Whether the owners were complicit or not is irrelative.

The integrity of the game should be above reproach. Otherwise the records themselves are worthless.

[HShockeywatcher]

Packerboy, there is definitely merit to what you are saying, but the bottom line is that the thing they are using is illegal. It's not just against the rules, but it is an illegal drug, just as much as marijuana another drug. It is an illegal drug they are using. So, they should be fired because they are breaking the rules. An example should be made of them.

Yes, great ball player. Yes, he cheats.

Neut, couldn't agree with you more.

Take any great player in the history of any sport. MJ, Lebron, Brett Farve, Santana, Gretzke, Woods, etc, etc. All great players. But if any of them were to start using roids they should be kicked out of their sport and be punished.

[packerboy]

Comparing Bonds and baseball to Johnson and track is difficult. Should we go back and change the scores of games because we think Bonds was on steroids?

We need to get passed this steroid hysteria in baseball and embrace the great hitters of our times.

This is all very silly.

Steroid use is serious business and needs to be banned and enforced.

But to say that a guy doesnt deserve a HR career record becase he admitted some use is a little over the top. Ruth drank alot of beer. It proably helped hm hit more HRs than any steroid user. Just ask the softball players.

[HShockeywatcher]

You can't compare beer to roids. That's one legal drug and one illegal drug. That's like justifying a high school football player getting tanked before a game because it helps him out. It's illegal at that age and AGAINST THE RULES.

[packerboy]

Beer, alcohol, cigarettes and other such substances are only legal because thay are a source of revenue for our ultra liberal, tax and spend , Democrat legislators to spend.

Cigarettes are legal. Think about it. How important is it to you that its legal?

The other thing that I dont get is why a person should lose their job if they get caught smoking pot or doing something illegal. Thats why we have jails and the like.

[HShockeywatcher]

Well, a good point. It would definitely be a real plus and we'd have a healthier country overnight the day cigarettes become illegal. But that is neither here nor there. I suppose that's a good point, but in this case the illegal drug gives you an advantage over other players.

[Neutron 14]

Beer, alcohol, cigarettes and other such substances are only legal because thay are a source of revenue for our ultra liberal, tax and spend , Democrat legislators to spend.

Cigarettes are legal. Think about it. How important is it to you that its legal?

The other thing that I dont get is why a person should lose their job if they get caught smoking pot or doing something illegal. Thats why we have jails and the like.

1. As proven during legislative sessions and even the drive home, Republican State Senators like alcohol also.

2. If you wish to ban cigarettes under the name of health care, fine. Ban ice cream and McDonalds for fat people too. Obesity kills more people than cigarettes, and is just as preventable.

3. Agreed

[packerboy]

The last time I checked we needed food to live. Sure, a lot of us eat too much and are unhealthy but that is being worked on.

We dont need cigarettes to do anythiing unless we are addicited to nicotine, which is exactly the goal of those that sell them.

The only reason they are legal is that our esteemed lawmakers would have to spend less or raise taxes (either of which is totally contrary to nature) to make up for the loss of revenue if they were banned.

[Neutron 14]

The last time I checked we needed food to live. Sure, a lot of us eat too much and are unhealthy but that is being worked on.

Ice cream is needed for obese people to live? If you want to ban unhealthy lifestyles/choices its going to be a long list.

The only reason they are legal is that our esteemed lawmakers would have to spend less or raise taxes (either of which is totally contrary to nature) to make up for the loss of revenue if they were banned.

Thats the argument for legalizing marijuana!

[packerboy]

"Cigarettes are legal so pot should be too" is a horse bleep argument.

Cigarettes should be illegal as should pot.

I dont know alot of people who would equate the eatng of ice cream with smoking cigarettes but I dont get out as much as I used to.

[HShockeywatcher]

I don't know. We probably wouldn't need as much because of much better health if they were illegal. We won't even get into the marijuana debate.

And making fast food illegal isn't the issue. Fast food isn't bad. People that don't take care of themselves is bad. If Joe Mauer goes to McDonalds five days a week, I'm sure he'll be fine. If some fat (sorry, obese) guy goes there five days a week, different story. I love fast food, it's cheap, it's easy, and it tastes good. But I also exercise 6-7 days a week, have a great metabolism, etc,etc. The fast food isn't an issue, it's the lifestyles of certain people using it.

Tabacco isn't the same because it can kill you with a good lifestyle. It can also kill others. I've heard people bring up the car pollution response when talking to me about this. And that would be a great argument for the electric car.

Back to Bonds. He's doing something illegal. He should be punished. And so should all people using. It may seem unfair that only those breaking records "get caught" but it is because they are doing something wrong they are noticed and able to break the record.

[Neutron 14]

How about alcohol? Caffiene? Which non-prescription stimulants should be allowed and why?

Cigarettes are the politically correct vice to single out, and its done under the guise of being unhealthy. Double the taxes.. err... health fee to balance the budget. But smoking is the second leading killer. Obesity is first. Why not tackle that as well? Lets add a health fee at McDonalds too!

Hypocrisy abounds....

p.s. I'm a non-smoker of either

[HShockeywatcher]

Well, my idea (which many have thoughts would be really cool) is to have a weight limit to certain fast foods. And to get a doctor's note to be able to if you're over the weight. For example, NFL players are in great shape and a Big Mac here and there won't hurt. My thought was over 225lbs for men and something like 175-200lbs for women. If you weigh that you can't buy them.

Nuet, total agreement that something should be done about it. But raising taxes just means getting closer to something like Communism. Plus, if you think about it, people wouldn't be spending their money on cigarettes, they would be doing one of two things with it; 1. spending it on something else where taxes are collected, or 2. saving it, which isn't bad because then more people will have more.

I think the one thing that would need to be addressed is whether you taking the "non-prescription stimulant" affects just you or if it negatively affects other people. A couple of examples:
Tobacco - we all know this negatively affects other people. Health insurance is higher.
Caffeine - for the most part it only affects you.
Alcohol - unless abused only affect you, which is why there are limits on how much you can have.
Marijuana - For the most part, as long as you aren't driving, doesn't negatively affect other people.
Food - Everyone's health insurance is higher because of obesity.

[theref]

I loved how no one has touched the subject of banning beer and alcohol! haha. If they are legal, marijuana should probably be legal too. I imagine there'd be a lot less bar fights and drunk driving accidents as nobody would be motivated to go anywhere, but obesity rates would go up.

On another note, someone pointed out that it is not fast foods fault that people are obese. I would agree and disagree. Only within the last couple years have they been coming up with alternatives to the greasy burgers and salty fries. Don't get me wrong, I eat there also because it is quick and easy and that is just it. I'm not forced to eat there, I choose to. So for anyone thinking about suing Burger King because you got fat, take a hike.

Here is the end result with Bonds, what ever he is doing now, he must use extremely special stuff because you know that baseball is testing him more than average and has been for the last two years. Yes, he still has to hit the ball, but when people get better in their 40's then they were in their 30's? Seems suspicious to me.

However, since steriods weren't illegal until the last couple years, you can't justify wiping out someones career stats. Just like it is a farce that McGwire is held out of the Hall of Fame. He did a lot for the sport just when they needed it after the strike. Since he basically said that he did something that is illegal now in a time when it wasn't illegal, everyone frowns upon him.

Past is past and present is present. I don't like Barry either and think that he probably did take and may still have a way to take them and hide it, but until MLB proves it (or at least confirms to everyone they've proved it. Who wants to lose a big name when ratings are down and this is big press for them, conspiricy maybe?), the man is innocent until proven guilty as it goes in our great country.

[Neutron 14]

You want to drink yourself to death? Have a good time, but don't drive.
You want to smoke and get lung cancer? Be my guest, but take your cigarette outside.
We can't legislate to protect people from themselves.

Goverment can be like Larry the Cable Guy's midget girlfriend. She was about waist high. Obvious advantages, but he had to break up with her because she couldn't keep her nose out of his business.

[HShockeywatcher]

I love it when people in bigger spots say the things I have been for a long time; Someone was quoted on ESPN just saying that Bonds should at least give us an explanation because of his stats, his head and his strength. This is basically like the premise of the movie Fracture where everyone knew that Anthony Hopkins shot his wife but it couldn't be proven. Why can't we just ask him to explain himself and when he can't we know he's guilty?


I didn't want to bring it up because it would take this to a whole nother level, but you are right. I agree that marijuana should be legal. When you compare to cigarettes, marijuana wins every time. When you compare to alcohol, marijuana wins. No bar fights, less needed. I don't know about the obesity claim though.

What part do you disagree about? The only part I think that can be put down about fast food places is false advertisement. Aside from that, how is it their fault? I like a McChiken Sandwich and a double cheeseburger from McDonald's. Yesterday I had a Baconator from Wendy's (I recommend that one to anyone). I have also biked 20 miles between today and yesterday, and exercise on a regular basis. They are unhealthy foods. I know that. Grilling would be so much better. But they aren't fast, I know what I'm getting into. This isn't a "it didn't say it was hot" argument; everyone knows they are greasy and unhealthy. Personally I think they should offer more juice instead of pop, but that's just one thing.

You are right about Bonds. What I don't get is that he should have some claim about his actions. If he hasn't used, he should market his workout. He's innocent until proven guilty in a system where we can't prove he's guilty. Someone commented on how they can only test for what they know about. There are also things like insulin, where taken if you don't need it is used as a steroid, that are not tested for.

How long have Steroids been illegal? How long have they been against the rules in baseball?

[Knowlzee]

Appears many on this board know what is best for everyone else. None of the vices mentioned harm anyone else,.....and in moderation do not even harm the user.

So,.....wouldn't it be best that each particular user decided for themselves which vice they want to partake,......how much,.....and how often.

By the way,....this weird concept of personal choice has worked pretty good for the first 200 plus years of America. It helped make us the most affluent country in the world. Do you really think, it is best for government to begin making our choices and decisions, now? Is that progress?

With regards to Bonds, if he breaks the record, what will people think when his name is mentioned,.......home run record,......or steroids. There is your "ass trick", Neut.

[theref]

HSHockeywatcher:

I was trying to make a joke by throwing the obesity comment in there. Lighten up. Also, I really don't know or care what you've said in the past. If you are eluding to the fact that I am just echoing, please get down off your pedastal.

Steriods became illegal when there became a punishment for testing positive and receiving suspensions or fines.

[packerboy]

Knowlzee makes a good point which was that the "punishment" of Bonds will take care of itself. There is no need for us to do anything.

The rest of Knowlzees post is his typical ultra liberal , hippie , "if it feels good do it " easy rider approach to life which should be rejected by all God fearng , conservative , Americans.

[Knowlzee]

Yeah,.....you "conservative" guys keep cramping my style. All I want is a little freedom,.....and the conservative establishment keeps getting in the way. You "conservative" guys keep wanting to ban this, and ban that.

You "conservative" guys keep looking to government to solve your problems. You must think the citizens are too stupid to know how many beers to drink,.....if they should have cigarettes or not,.....or now, if we should eat fatty foods. What's the next "conservative" ban,.....underwear? I think there has been a study that has found, if our underwear is too tight, we can get a stomach ache. Is that the next "conservative" ban?

[HShockeywatcher]

"None of the vices mentioned harm anyone else,.....and in moderation do not even harm the user"...really? I will agree that in moderation for certain people unhealthy food is fine. For anyone smoking is unhealthy; not only for the user, but for others around. Alcohol is moderation is actually good for you. And steroids? Those are good for you, right?

theref, my comment wasn't to you at all. It was in reference to how people out there say the same things I say all the time but people put me down for them and then applaud the others who say them.

[Can't Never Tried]

"None of the vices mentioned harm anyone else,.....and in moderation do not even harm the user"...really? I will agree that in moderation for certain people unhealthy food is fine. For anyone smoking is unhealthy; not only for the user, but for others around. Alcohol is moderation is actually good for you. And steroids? Those are good for you, right?

theref, my comment wasn't to you at all. It was in reference to how people out there say the same things I say all the time but people put me down for them and then applaud the others who say them.

It's very hard not to say something you've already said somewhere on this "bored"

I say we all light up a big stogie right here in the cafe
and smoke him back to youth forum

[HShockeywatcher]

You seem to miss the point of what I said. Oh well.

[Neutron 14]

It appears "the watcher" thinks we read what he writes.