agreedover8ted wrote:Good point but we are 6 months off now, would 2 more months be that big a change? Aside from the occasional Fargo tournament is the USA hockey date relevent in MN?
I think its pretty realistic to say that HS hockey is still the engine that pulls the train in MN.
Early move up Bantam(s)
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
It's my understanding that MN Hockey did a study and found out that 80% of boys born in July and August are held back in starting kindergarten. The ultimate goal of MN Hockey is to keep class grades together as teams to mirror High School. If the cutoff date were moved to match the school cutoff date - 9/1 - that would leave the majority of July/Aug birthdays ineligible for Bantams as 9th graders.
By keeping it at July 1 the majority of 9th graders are eligible for bantams. Every year there is the 20% of kids born in July/Aug who are ahead of their group in school. But the majority rules in this case.
By the way, I think 80% is an amazing #. Many issues here.....should my son be the youngest in his class or one of the oldest? Social and athletic advantages to both obviously.
By keeping it at July 1 the majority of 9th graders are eligible for bantams. Every year there is the 20% of kids born in July/Aug who are ahead of their group in school. But the majority rules in this case.
By the way, I think 80% is an amazing #. Many issues here.....should my son be the youngest in his class or one of the oldest? Social and athletic advantages to both obviously.
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32HockeyFan
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:59 am
I've always felt the cutoff should be a combination of birthdate and grade in school.
If you have a July/August 94 birthdate kid that is entering 8th grade this year, he should be allowed to play Bantams this year with the rest of his class. That way he can play his second year as a 9th grader. In the current setup, he wouldn't start Bantams until he was a 9th grader and would probably skip Bantams and move to high school as a 10th grader. I think two years of Bantams would be the idea situation for most kids. If you have a July 94 birthdate kid that's was held back starting school and is entering 7th grade, he should stay in PeeWees for one more year.
If you have a July/August 94 birthdate kid that is entering 8th grade this year, he should be allowed to play Bantams this year with the rest of his class. That way he can play his second year as a 9th grader. In the current setup, he wouldn't start Bantams until he was a 9th grader and would probably skip Bantams and move to high school as a 10th grader. I think two years of Bantams would be the idea situation for most kids. If you have a July 94 birthdate kid that's was held back starting school and is entering 7th grade, he should stay in PeeWees for one more year.
Wow...80% is a big #. I knew there were a lot. Unfortunately my boys have a cave man for a dad who didn't even think of the social/athletic advantages of holding them back. I just put them in the grade they were supposed to be in.
Give that 20% the option. Let them make the choice based on their school friends, maturity, size/speed etc.
Give that 20% the option. Let them make the choice based on their school friends, maturity, size/speed etc.
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puttinthefoilon
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:18 pm
sept age date
Why doesn't Mn Hockey follow a grade level? It seems it is set to keep w/ the final product not what is in best interest of the whole.
Lets say 90% of the players in a given association are not true A players, that leaves us with many many kids that may not be part of this age classification.
As stated above 80% of summer birthdays didn't start school until the following year, then a possible look from Mn Hockey is due. If you are going into 7th grade and are forced to play Bantams, what do you do in ninth grade? Your association has no U16, you are not good enough as a 9th grader to play varsity ( oh my ) and you can't play JV or Junior gold because of the policies in place... so you quit. Whom is Mn Hockey serving now? Why is it July 1? Perhaps it should be Sept 1...or whatever Mn Schools uses for the earliest one can enter Kindergarten.
Why is it that association will not allow a child to enter mites if they are not enrolled in kindergarten, but they maybe were born on June 22, and are 5? Then they enter mites the following year, but have to move up to squirts before their peers and following their 3rd year.
If the age is driven by high school then perhaps it should go with the beginning of the school year. What does July 1 mean? What if the child was born 3 months premature and the expected date was Sept 15? I highly doubt parents are holding their summer children back prior to kindergarten because their child is going to be the gifted athlete that way.
Regardless of age the child should be able to play with their class, either up or down based on the current USA Hockey date. If they go to a grade in class then you don't have much at all to discuss. If you are held back upon starting school and is for educational / physical reasons then let them continue w/ their class... if it is for prison/suspension yada yada yada then don't.
Putting something in place to deal w/ 10% of the members is a true problem with governing bodies of our hockey.. both USA and Mn.
How much of a good hockey player, contributing at perhaps 3rd line varsity for one year, did his/her parents money go to Mn Hockey or USA hockey in funding /training to find the next Kessell or Modano? What are they going to do for Joe Good student and contributor to his community from what he learned competing in team sports?
Elliot what can be done ?
High School Coach
Lets say 90% of the players in a given association are not true A players, that leaves us with many many kids that may not be part of this age classification.
As stated above 80% of summer birthdays didn't start school until the following year, then a possible look from Mn Hockey is due. If you are going into 7th grade and are forced to play Bantams, what do you do in ninth grade? Your association has no U16, you are not good enough as a 9th grader to play varsity ( oh my ) and you can't play JV or Junior gold because of the policies in place... so you quit. Whom is Mn Hockey serving now? Why is it July 1? Perhaps it should be Sept 1...or whatever Mn Schools uses for the earliest one can enter Kindergarten.
Why is it that association will not allow a child to enter mites if they are not enrolled in kindergarten, but they maybe were born on June 22, and are 5? Then they enter mites the following year, but have to move up to squirts before their peers and following their 3rd year.
If the age is driven by high school then perhaps it should go with the beginning of the school year. What does July 1 mean? What if the child was born 3 months premature and the expected date was Sept 15? I highly doubt parents are holding their summer children back prior to kindergarten because their child is going to be the gifted athlete that way.
Regardless of age the child should be able to play with their class, either up or down based on the current USA Hockey date. If they go to a grade in class then you don't have much at all to discuss. If you are held back upon starting school and is for educational / physical reasons then let them continue w/ their class... if it is for prison/suspension yada yada yada then don't.
Putting something in place to deal w/ 10% of the members is a true problem with governing bodies of our hockey.. both USA and Mn.
How much of a good hockey player, contributing at perhaps 3rd line varsity for one year, did his/her parents money go to Mn Hockey or USA hockey in funding /training to find the next Kessell or Modano? What are they going to do for Joe Good student and contributor to his community from what he learned competing in team sports?
Elliot what can be done ?
High School Coach
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puttinthefoilon
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:18 pm
The ultimate goal of MN Hockey is to keep class grades together as teams to mirror High School. If the cutoff date were moved to match the school cutoff date - 9/1 - that would leave the majority of July/Aug birthdays ineligible for Bantams as 9th graders.
In response to above. I believe most associations allow a child to play UP with their grade based upon Mn Hockey age guideline. It would be interesting to know what percentage did and didn't. We have at least 5 this year that are July/August b-days playing squirts as 4th graders.
If the goal of Mn Hockey is to play with their class then perhaps it should include the June birthdays that did not go to kindergarten along w/ the 80% of the July / August...
H.S. C.
In response to above. I believe most associations allow a child to play UP with their grade based upon Mn Hockey age guideline. It would be interesting to know what percentage did and didn't. We have at least 5 this year that are July/August b-days playing squirts as 4th graders.
If the goal of Mn Hockey is to play with their class then perhaps it should include the June birthdays that did not go to kindergarten along w/ the 80% of the July / August...
H.S. C.
Most associations allow the summer birthday kids to move up to be with their class if they've started kindergarten late. Here's an excerpt from the Edina handbook:
EHA “MOVE UP POLICY”
The Edina Hockey Association enforces a policy of placing all participating skaters in the level of play associated with their age/birth date. However, a skater may request EHA Board approval to “move up” to a level of play that is a level higher than the level dictated by their date of birth. Permission to move up is granted solely at the discretion of the Board and may be granted only in cases where such movement allows the skater to play with their “peer” grade in school. This policy affects skaters who are young relative to their grade in school, as follows:
Player not eligible (per birth date) for: But Entering:
Termites Kindergarten
Mites 1st grade
Squirts/U-10 Girls 4th grade
Pee Wees/U-12 Girls 6th grade
Bantams/U-14 Girls 8th grade
Once a skater has been granted permission to move up and has begun the tryout process at the higher level, he/she must remain at the level chosen. Additionally, a skater electing to move up will be allowed only two years at each level, from the
Squirt/U-10 level to the Bantam/U-14 level. In other words, this is a “one-time” election that continues through the Bantam/U-14 levels of play.
The EHA does not allow skaters to “play down” a level.
Our association has a very similar policy.
EHA “MOVE UP POLICY”
The Edina Hockey Association enforces a policy of placing all participating skaters in the level of play associated with their age/birth date. However, a skater may request EHA Board approval to “move up” to a level of play that is a level higher than the level dictated by their date of birth. Permission to move up is granted solely at the discretion of the Board and may be granted only in cases where such movement allows the skater to play with their “peer” grade in school. This policy affects skaters who are young relative to their grade in school, as follows:
Player not eligible (per birth date) for: But Entering:
Termites Kindergarten
Mites 1st grade
Squirts/U-10 Girls 4th grade
Pee Wees/U-12 Girls 6th grade
Bantams/U-14 Girls 8th grade
Once a skater has been granted permission to move up and has begun the tryout process at the higher level, he/she must remain at the level chosen. Additionally, a skater electing to move up will be allowed only two years at each level, from the
Squirt/U-10 level to the Bantam/U-14 level. In other words, this is a “one-time” election that continues through the Bantam/U-14 levels of play.
The EHA does not allow skaters to “play down” a level.
Our association has a very similar policy.
If a child is born in July or August of 2002 (a five year old) he CAN start school in the fall of 2007. The child MUST start school in the fall of 2008.
A child born on September 1 of 2002 cannot start school in 2007, can start in 2008 and must start in the fall of 2009.
As for hockey, the upper level is the guide.
MN Hockey mini-mite would be born on or after July 1 of 2000. Using the 2 year rule per classification that would make a child eligible for mini-mites born on or before June 30 of 2002. Using this as a guideline, those born in July and August of 2002 would not be eiligible.
BUT, MN hockey (nor USA Hockey) have no rule as to the lower level of an age group (playing up). The local association sets this rule.
During the 1990's when I was President/Director of Bemidji Youth Hockey our rule was 5 year-olds (July/August birthdays) could play if they were enrolled in kindergarten (those playing with their classmates).
I believe a lot of associations follow this rule, although they do not have to.
As I stated before, regardless of when a player started and not weighing in other factors, I recommend kids play bantams when they are in 8th and 9th grades 9play two years of bantams and only one of pee-wees if that is how it worked out). Again, other factors may change that opinion, but that is how it should work on the face of it. I follow this guideline if an individual files a grievance with me.
Other District Direcotrs may use other guidelines, but to me playing two years of bantams is an importana step before moving on to high school. Numbers in the local program may be difficult to manage, but usually moving one kid is not a problem.
MN Hockey has not taken this on as lower limits (players moving up) has never been on the table at the state level. It is allowed. Local associations set their guidelines. MN Hockey's role has been to determine they are consistent in how they follow their rule.
A child born on September 1 of 2002 cannot start school in 2007, can start in 2008 and must start in the fall of 2009.
As for hockey, the upper level is the guide.
MN Hockey mini-mite would be born on or after July 1 of 2000. Using the 2 year rule per classification that would make a child eligible for mini-mites born on or before June 30 of 2002. Using this as a guideline, those born in July and August of 2002 would not be eiligible.
BUT, MN hockey (nor USA Hockey) have no rule as to the lower level of an age group (playing up). The local association sets this rule.
During the 1990's when I was President/Director of Bemidji Youth Hockey our rule was 5 year-olds (July/August birthdays) could play if they were enrolled in kindergarten (those playing with their classmates).
I believe a lot of associations follow this rule, although they do not have to.
As I stated before, regardless of when a player started and not weighing in other factors, I recommend kids play bantams when they are in 8th and 9th grades 9play two years of bantams and only one of pee-wees if that is how it worked out). Again, other factors may change that opinion, but that is how it should work on the face of it. I follow this guideline if an individual files a grievance with me.
Other District Direcotrs may use other guidelines, but to me playing two years of bantams is an importana step before moving on to high school. Numbers in the local program may be difficult to manage, but usually moving one kid is not a problem.
MN Hockey has not taken this on as lower limits (players moving up) has never been on the table at the state level. It is allowed. Local associations set their guidelines. MN Hockey's role has been to determine they are consistent in how they follow their rule.
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greybeard58
- Posts: 2569
- Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:40 pm
If I remember right many years ago Mn Hockey went from the Jan.1 birthdate to the Sept.1 birthday. I am not sure as for how many years but then USA Hockey changed the Date to July 1 and I believe that was sometime in the early 90's. Mn Hockey ptoved a point and rather fight for 2 months moved the date to align with USAHockey and started sending teams to the national tournament again. In 2003(?) USA Hockey switched dates and years. Mn Hockey had a study on how each date would affect the concerned players. The vote then was to stay with the July 1 birthday and has been that way since. The last change was not just a month change but also a birth year change.
Elliott if you can further help with the particulars I would apprescate it to many grey hairs affecting the memory.
Elliott if you can further help with the particulars I would apprescate it to many grey hairs affecting the memory.
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firejacque
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:58 pm
greybeard/elliot/puttinthfoilon
this is good discussion, what steps would be taken to have Sept 1 be the date and play with the school year? Seems logical. With 80% of July / August b-days not going into school I assume quite a few June as well.
I believe most association do allow a player to play (up) with their grade.
The player that did not go to kindergarten with a june birthday appears not to be able to play witht their grade. That needs to be corrected it seems.
How does this move to discussion beyond a message board?
this is good discussion, what steps would be taken to have Sept 1 be the date and play with the school year? Seems logical. With 80% of July / August b-days not going into school I assume quite a few June as well.
I believe most association do allow a player to play (up) with their grade.
The player that did not go to kindergarten with a june birthday appears not to be able to play witht their grade. That needs to be corrected it seems.
How does this move to discussion beyond a message board?
Present a plan to MN Hockey rules committee - either directly to the chairman, through Prsident Dennis Green or to you r cognizant district director.firejacque wrote:greybeard/elliot/puttinthfoilon
this is good discussion, what steps would be taken to have Sept 1 be the date and play with the school year? Seems logical. With 80% of July / August b-days not going into school I assume quite a few June as well.
I believe most association do allow a player to play (up) with their grade.
The player that did not go to kindergarten with a june birthday appears not to be able to play witht their grade. That needs to be corrected it seems.
How does this move to discussion beyond a message board?
A discussion was held in 2001 when the USA Hockey change was being made. Several people wanted a 9/1 cutoff to match teh school year, but final decision was to leave it as is (July) to avoid any further confusion that year. It was to be revisited later, but it has not been. Why???
I am not sure why.
For D16 it has not been an issue. Our associations take kids into their program somewehere, somehow, regardless of grade when they are 4 or 5 years old. They play them based on MN Hockey rules and allow for playing up to accomodate talent and grade levels.
I guess that is why it has not been addressed at MN Hockey becasue playing up a level is more of a local, case by case issue with too many specifics to clearly define a rule that takes all (or most) variations (besides playing with your grade) into it.
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puttinthefoilon
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:18 pm
Elliot
What does D16 do with a player with a June birthday that is currently NOT playing with their grade, but would like too?
How can we help them to be able to stay and to play with kids in their grade? currently back, and not end up possibly quitting hockey, or having nowhere to play among their peers?
thanks
What does D16 do with a player with a June birthday that is currently NOT playing with their grade, but would like too?
How can we help them to be able to stay and to play with kids in their grade? currently back, and not end up possibly quitting hockey, or having nowhere to play among their peers?
thanks
Well, a June birthday can start hockey as 5 year old. Born June of 2002, will be 5 years old (young mini-mite) on July 1 and can play hockey and start grade K. If he is held back by his parents he can still start hockey.puttinthefoilon wrote:Elliot
What does D16 do with a player with a June birthday that is currently NOT playing with their grade, but would like too?
How can we help them to be able to stay and to play with kids in their grade? currently back, and not end up possibly quitting hockey, or having nowhere to play among their peers?
thanks
If held back; the problem is what level do you skip - obvious answer would be one year of mites, play 3 mites, 2 squirts, 2 pee-wees, 2 bantams.
But in D16 a lot of these kids will start when they are 4 and get 4 years of mites.
If not held back then they are on the same cycle as everyone else.
But changing the cut-off does not do away with the problem of being youngest (held back) it just changes the focus to a different month.
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firejacque
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:58 pm
Now i am confused :
If the date for 1st year peewees was changed to just plain old 6th grade. Then if a association wanted to move a kid up for whatever reason they could do that as they see fit...
So a formula like this
Squirts 4 - 5th grade
Pee Wee 6 - 7th grade
Bantam 8 - 9th grade
Elliot we have a family in our program w/ a 2nd year squirt June birthday and he is in 4th grade. He didn't go to kindergarten till he was 6.
The boy would like to stay in squirts w/ his grade friends instead of peewees next year. His mom does not want him to go to peewees as a 5th grader, and being playing with 6, but 7th graders. What can she do?
If the date for 1st year peewees was changed to just plain old 6th grade. Then if a association wanted to move a kid up for whatever reason they could do that as they see fit...
So a formula like this
Squirts 4 - 5th grade
Pee Wee 6 - 7th grade
Bantam 8 - 9th grade
Elliot we have a family in our program w/ a 2nd year squirt June birthday and he is in 4th grade. He didn't go to kindergarten till he was 6.
The boy would like to stay in squirts w/ his grade friends instead of peewees next year. His mom does not want him to go to peewees as a 5th grader, and being playing with 6, but 7th graders. What can she do?
It is almost impossible to get a 'playdown waiver' from USA Hockey.firejacque wrote:Now i am confused :
If the date for 1st year peewees was changed to just plain old 6th grade. Then if a association wanted to move a kid up for whatever reason they could do that as they see fit...
So a formula like this
Squirts 4 - 5th grade
Pee Wee 6 - 7th grade
Bantam 8 - 9th grade
Elliot we have a family in our program w/ a 2nd year squirt June birthday and he is in 4th grade. He didn't go to kindergarten till he was 6.
The boy would like to stay in squirts w/ his grade friends instead of peewees next year. His mom does not want him to go to peewees as a 5th grader, and being playing with 6, but 7th graders. What can she do?
Medical reasons is about all they listen to.
They can go to the District Director with teh association president and make a request that will apply to the District only. But if he is of normal size and ability it is difficult to do.
Some one is always the youngest/smallest/slowest/least skilled.
Where do you draw the line? There is no good answer.
Playing by grade is not an answer for obvious reasons (especially at squirts and peewees. At bantams and high school the difference become less.
If it is D16, call me. I know Dave Stigen in D15 will listen.
Pat Guyer in D12 (IR) is new, but is s good guy and will see what can be done.
Pete Hill in D11 will also work with you if possible.
Most metro areas are so big - so many numbers that it is hard to bend rules for people, but the association should support the family and present it to the DD.
D5 is a new director.
D4, Mark Jacobs will give it his attention.
Good luck, wish I could be more positive, but that particular situation is difficult.