Nationalize health care?

[east hockey]

Chris' topic on the strike at the U of M leads into this somewhat, since an integral part of negotiations in the public sector concerns health care benefits.

I found this USA Today article, published in May 2006. It jumped out at me because Duluth is mentioned in the article as an example of a government unit which is getting the hurt put on their balance sheet.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/200 ... alth_x.htm

For all the talk about health care costs growing exponentially, there has been precious little talk about actual solutions. Here is one...I frankly haven't had the time to study this issue much other than to take notice that Democrats love it and Republicans hate it. So I can pretty much predict how certain reactions will fall here.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/ed ... pose_x.htm

Lee

[Can't Never Tried]

Not sure if we will ever do it... I think we could have even bigger problems.
I hope this doesn't stray to far, but I think a lot of the health care cost issues are a direct result of over use of services, or shall I say mis-use...
Having lived with a health professional for over 25 yrs and being involved in company health plan issues I have a pretty wide perspective.

It seems when I was a kid the only time you went to the doctor was when you needed stitches,broke something, or mom just couldn't get the fever down....and that was usually after days!
Now a days it seems that every little bump, bruise, cold or symtom results in a trip to the doctor, or urgent care, or worse yet in our society of instant service the emergency room.$$$$$
Part of this is the big drug companies fault as well...you can't watch a TV show without getting bombarded with drug commercials...I mean all these allergy meds, Viagra, etc..you name it...they push hard to sell it, and the only way to get it is........yep a trip to the doctor.
The 1st step is for all of us to police ourselves...use the system only when you need to ...everyone gets sick from time to time but in most cases the body is an amazing thing it fights off those things on it's own and you become stronger for it....sorry if I went off course Lee.

[hockeygod]

Don't even get me started on health care.....I think your absolutly right. first we have to start policing ourselves and not go in for every little thing.

Secondly we have to learn to accept that things don't always work out. I can't tell you how many people I see who have a a elderly grandparent pass on and they want to to sue. Sometimes old people don't make it through surgery and that is just a fact.

The third thing that we must do is charge the same prices for the unisured that the insurance companies pay. This will promote better healthcare for the less fortunate of our country and will stop them from running to the emergency (most expensive care) rooms when they have problems.

We also need a state pool, where the self employed and those without healthcare would have access to the same type of group rates that the states large employers enjoy. This would level the field so that more people could afford to pay for healthcare.

[elliott70]

Agreed with both posts.

I do not think nationalizing it will work, nor do I think it will ever happen.

[elliott70]

Personally, my health costs have gone out of sight, including insurance.
I have found that to bring them under control I need to manage my health better (on all levels). Including being better educated on my health issues and their treatment, requesting more information from health care providers, more cognizant of the cost (in the past since the insurance company wrote the check I would normally not review a billing), demanding that the health care providers PROVIDE services and not just the motion or lip service, and on and on.
It is more costly for me in terms of my time, but it reduces the $ cost and has produced better health services for me.

[packerboy]

I dont know what the solution is but I would like to try somethig that works really well in controlling costs/prices.......competition.

The last time I tried to see a doctor who specializes in a minor foot problem I was having, I was told he was booked out 6 months for new patients. ....6 boofin months.

There arent enough of them.

[BIAFP]

I dont know what the solution is but I would like to try somethig that works really well in controlling costs/prices.......competition.

The last time I tried to see a doctor who specializes in a minor foot problem I was having, I was told he was booked out 6 months for new patients. ....6 boofin months.

There arent enough of them.

Well I can tell you they have nationalized health care in Canada. My cousin from Ontario just came down to MN to have both knees replaced because it was a seven year wait in Canada. Sounds like a great Liberal plan to me While they are at it they should nationalize housing and automobile distribution as well. More Government please!

[Can't Never Tried]

Personally, my health costs have gone out of sight, including insurance.
I have found that to bring them under control I need to manage my health better (on all levels). Including being better educated on my health issues and their treatment, requesting more information from health care providers, more cognizant of the cost (in the past since the insurance company wrote the check I would normally not review a billing), demanding that the health care providers PROVIDE services and not just the motion or lip service, and on and on.
It is more costly for me in terms of my time, but it reduces the $ cost and has produced better health services for me.

That's about the size of it...don't go to the doctor and say I didn't take care of myself now make me better, start taking it upon yourself to better your health so you don't end up there in the 1st place.
That's a generalized statement and not pointed towards you elliott.

I know a person that goes thru the same flippin battery of tests for his heart each year, and this has been going on for 10 yrs, stress test, portable week long monitering, but no medication, and each year I ask him about the outcome of the test and he says yep they said it all looks good??? What is that!!! 10 yrs and I'm not joking...if it's been good that long maybe there isn't a problem...that is the type of waste I'm talking about...

The other big problem is the prescription narcotics I think people would be suprised to know how many visits are just so people can get their legal fix.
So sad!!

[east hockey]

I dont know what the solution is but I would like to try somethig that works really well in controlling costs/prices.......competition.

The last time I tried to see a doctor who specializes in a minor foot problem I was having, I was told he was booked out 6 months for new patients. ....6 boofin months.

There arent enough of them.

Well I can tell you they have nationalized health care in Canada. My cousin from Ontario just came down to MN to have both knees replaced because it was a seven year wait in Canada. Sounds like a great Liberal plan to me While they are at it they should nationalize housing and automobile distribution as well. More Government please!

Fine. What would be the Conservatives' solution to 47 million people in the United States (2005) being without health insurance? Get better jobs? Don't get sick?

Also, can you cite any real data to support that a National Health Insurance plan in the U.S. would result in the same problems which Canada is facing?

Oh wait, I remember this from the Reagan days. We need a safety net. Trickle-down economics will take care of everyone. How could I have missed that?

I'm not saying nationalalizing health care is the solution. But you haven't put any alternative out there to a system which is in serious trouble, only using this thread as a soapbox to bash liberalism once again. Attaboy.

Lee

[east hockey]

Personally, my health costs have gone out of sight, including insurance.
I have found that to bring them under control I need to manage my health better (on all levels). Including being better educated on my health issues and their treatment, requesting more information from health care providers, more cognizant of the cost (in the past since the insurance company wrote the check I would normally not review a billing), demanding that the health care providers PROVIDE services and not just the motion or lip service, and on and on.
It is more costly for me in terms of my time, but it reduces the $ cost and has produced better health services for me.

That's about the size of it...don't go to the doctor and say I didn't take care of myself now make me better, start taking it upon yourself to better your health so you don't end up there in the 1st place.
That's a generalized statement and not pointed towards you elliott.

I know a person that goes thru the same flippin battery of tests for his heart each year, and this has been going on for 10 yrs, stress test, portable week long monitering, but no medication, and each year I ask him about the outcome of the test and he says yep they said it all looks good??? What is that!!! 10 yrs and I'm not joking...if it's been good that long maybe there isn't a problem...that is the type of waste I'm talking about...

The other big problem is the prescription narcotics I think people would be suprised to know how many visits are just so people can get their legal fix.
So sad!!

I also agree that those two things which were spoken of have contributed to higher costs. What role does cost increases as a result of increased premiums for malpractice insurance which doctors have to pay play here? What impact would tort reform have in the arena of cost containment?

Lee

[Can't Never Tried]

What are we spending in Iraq each week?

Here's an Idea
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/Trade-Offs.html

At the link choose the poeple with health care trade off.

It unreal....

[packerboy]

There is a middle ground that I think competiton would help us reach.

The medical profession has done a great job protecting itself by limiting access. The result is lack of competition and high costs.

Nationalization limits incentive and its a commie, pinko idea.

Gotta be a middle ground. There is enough demand and money to pay for high quality health care so the profeesion can do well without it being an economic burden even to upper middle class families.

[Can't Never Tried]

I'm sure HG could tell us more about tort reform but we have to be careful here as well....as in any profession there are the unscrupulous (?) that without some form of check and balance system can have catostrophic outcomes.
I lost my father to just that sort of thing many years ago...way before his time, just routine surgery !! mistakes were made he never came home. 59yrs old ....but that's enough of that.

I think sudsidized health care would be OK as long as they trim it from some of the waste we already have not a tax increase.

Any time the government controls $ there is corruption and that is a problem.

[hockeygod]

we have to have a safety net to catch the lowest income people wha can't afford health insurance, we need affordable insurance to the people in the middle and the high earners can take care of themselves as always do.

A national health care system will be the same mess everything the government touches turns into. it will be filled with politcal appointees (democrat and republican) there will be corruption and abuse of the system, it wouldn't work. There is no doubt that our system we curently have is badly broken and we have to do something but I don't think more government is the answer.

Tort reform..there you go blaming the lawyers again... If we made the losing party of a suit pay all the legal fees invoved it would take care of the problem fairly quickly because there are many, many cases that are settled on the basis that it would be cheaper than fighting. where if the losing party paid the costs it would make the case worth fighting and deter frivolous lawsuits.

[Can't Never Tried]

we have to have a safety net to catch the lowest income people wha can't afford health insurance, we need affordable insurance to the people in the middle and the high earners can take care of themselves as always do.

A national health care system will be the same mess everything the government touches turns into. it will be filled with politcal appointees (democrat and republican) there will be corruption and abuse of the system, it wouldn't work. There is no doubt that our system we curently have is badly broken and we have to do something but I don't think more government is the answer.

Tort reform..there you go blaming the lawyers again... If we made the losing party of a suit pay all the legal fees invoved it would take care of the problem fairly quickly because there are many, many cases that are settled on the basis that it would be cheaper than fighting. where if the losing party paid the costs it would make the case worth fighting and deter frivolous lawsuits.

What about all the legal advertisement on TV for "if you've been exposed to" and "did your child have a birth defect commercials"
or "if you took Drug XYZ" please call now you may be entitled to cash!!
Not that it's any worse then the adds to sell drug XYZ that play right after that

It's a factor!

[hockeygod]

think how many of those cases are settled rather fought out to the end. We haven't done many of those type cases but the cost of a case like that is astronomical. If you were suing a drug company you would be certain that you had a very strong case before even attempting, knowing that if you lost you would be libel millions of dollars in legal fees, it would put a law firm out of business. The way it sits now. I can sue anyone for anything I want, all I have invested is my time and some filing fees. If I lose, I have lost nothing but time. If I win than I am wealthy. Our current system encourages taking a shot in the dark and rewards those who win but fails to punish those who lose.

[Can't Never Tried]

think how many of those cases are settled rather fought out to the end. We haven't done many of those type cases but the cost of a case like that is astronomical. If you were suing a drug company you would be certain that you had a very strong case before even attempting, knowing that if you lost you would be libel millions of dollars in legal fees, it would put a law firm out of business. The way it sits now. I can sue anyone for anything I want, all I have invested is my time and some filing fees. If I lose, I have lost nothing but time. If I win than I am wealthy. Our current system encourages taking a shot in the dark and rewards those who win but fails to punish those who lose.

So your last sentence is a step towards reform..but big money will almost always win, because they can draw it out forever essentially driving the opponent into the dirt financially.
So you go to the doctor they operate and screw up and you can't work.. the little guy is now saying geez if I sue what if the judge or jury sides with them I lose everything, I already got screwed by the operation can I afford to take this chance it may be insult to injury.

Just another unrelated example...but I'm assuming hourly rate is hourly rate...
so if the legal fees weren't like $500/hr like the Northwest Airlines attorney's are getting as that bonus deal... geez maybe things wouldn't cost so much.
It's funny to hear that..and then the argument over a .69¢/hr raise

[elliott70]

I dont know what the solution is but I would like to try somethig that works really well in controlling costs/prices.......competition.

The last time I tried to see a doctor who specializes in a minor foot problem I was having, I was told he was booked out 6 months for new patients. ....6 boofin months.

There arent enough of them.

Well I can tell you they have nationalized health care in Canada. My cousin from Ontario just came down to MN to have both knees replaced because it was a seven year wait in Canada. Sounds like a great Liberal plan to me While they are at it they should nationalize housing and automobile distribution as well. More Government please!

My Canadian relatives / friends that can afford it or get access to it use the US (nothing against Canadian health care workers - just the availabilty of it).

[elliott70]

Fine. What would be the Conservatives' solution to 47 million people in the United States (2005) being without health insurance? Get better jobs? Don't get sick?

Also, can you cite any real data to support that a National Health Insurance plan in the U.S. would result in the same problems which Canada is facing?

I'm not saying nationalalizing health care is the solution. But you haven't put any alternative out there to a system which is in serious trouble, only using this thread as a soapbox to bash liberalism once again. Attaboy.

Lee

First, medicaid is a form of national health insurance that may or may not (from both sides view) work well. Ditto Indian Health Service.

Second, I believe most of us on here are fairly intelligent folk, but this is a long standing problem that those with intelligence and resources have yet to find a good solution.

Third, I don't think there has been a lot of bashing as just stating some annedotical responses to what we all (republicans, democrats, Catholics and heathens ) believe is a serious, multi-faceted problem.

And it is not a problem for the 47 million without insurance. It is a problem for just about every American I know (fortunately for us it mostly a problem of cost).

So the solution -
1. Nationalization (and/or by state and/or by county) assuring availabiltiy to medical services - especially emergency and basic services.

2. Nationalization to assure there is no profit gauging by those supplying the product / service.

3. Education:
of us as patients to be able to be more active in our own (and family) helath needs whether it is in preventive, emergency, diagnosis etal.
of helath care providers - nationalization of a program to assure #1 above - less or no cost for # of years of service.

4. Eye on waste. Whether it be the new mother that is at the emergency room for every sniffle of the baby or the hospital admisitrator that wants fine dining available in the hospital cafeteria (just two examples - not trying to pick on anyone.)

And now I ahve to go back to work - The rest of my plan will be in my forthcoming platform for my forthcoming run for President as a
Rebup-ocrat.
Thank you and keep smiling and stay healthy.

[Can't Never Tried]

Repubo-crat has a special sound to it.... ummm it sounds like you would have to put your finger across your lips from your nose to your chin when you talk.. so the sound comes out of both sides of your mouth.
If ya know what I mean...

[Stealth]

For you that are old enough think back to when lawyers could NOT advertise.
Today
Try to run a business today when somebody is on TV saying are you tiered of people calling you to pay you bills? well call me cause;
That’s all I do and I do it well.

Lawsuits must have a large to do with the price of medical drugs and practices.

Let along all the disclaimers for everything down to don’t spill your coffee in your lap.
IT’S HOT!

[Knowlzee]

Why can't health insurance be run like auto insurance? You pay premiums for the catastrophe, and the individual takes care of the maintenance and small repairs. Insurance covers the heart attack (i.e. car crash) involving a long hospital stay that would be very difficult, if not impossible for most to pay. Each individual pays for doctor visits for the sniffles (i.e. oil change/brake repair).

This plan should lower premiums, decrease unnecessary doctor visits, which would free up doctors to care for more important medical issues on a more timely matter.

Nationalizing health care and putting government in charge would be a disaster. When the care we are needed is not in the budget, and is denied (or even delayed), what do we do,.....go on strike?

[Joey (nine toes) Marcoux]

Just wanted to add....the Government already does a great job of providing health care to a select group....our politicians
Don't get me started on thier wonderful 'retirement' packages.

Talk about waste in Gov.

[Irishmans Shanty]

The last time I tried to see a doctor who specializes in a minor foot problem I was having, I was told he was booked out 6 months for new patients. ....6 boofin months.

I can't help you with the foot thing but Mrs. Shanty can get you into a OBGYN tomorrow that is at least 6 months out for new patients.

It's like everything else, you need to know someone.

[ChrisK]

Why can't health insurance be run like auto insurance? You pay premiums for the catastrophe, and the individual takes care of the maintenance and small repairs. Insurance covers the heart attack (i.e. car crash) involving a long hospital stay that would be very difficult, if not impossible for most to pay. Each individual pays for doctor visits for the sniffles (i.e. oil change/brake repair).

This plan should lower premiums, decrease unnecessary doctor visits, which would free up doctors to care for more important medical issues on a more timely matter.

Nationalizing health care and putting government in charge would be a disaster. When the care we are needed is not in the budget, and is denied (or even delayed), what do we do,.....go on strike?

The problem is that a lot of people will forego the "doctor visits for the sniffles" and problems that could easily have been taken care of will involve long hospital stays. Which will cost more. If people have cheap, easy access to medical professionals (not necessarily MDs) to check them out when they have the sniffles you won't have strep throats turning into rheumatic fever turning into bad heart valves.

And isn't our current health care system already a disaster? Costs are spiralling, millions don't have any coverage, packerboy has to wait 6 months to see a foot specialist. If you don't have the right job (or a job period), you're thrown to the wolves and on your own left to fend for yourself and that's not right.

I can't believe I'm saying this but hockeygod had some good suggestions:

The third thing that we must do is charge the same prices for the unisured that the insurance companies pay. This will promote better healthcare for the less fortunate of our country and will stop them from running to the emergency (most expensive care) rooms when they have problems.

We also need a state pool, where the self employed and those without healthcare would have access to the same type of group rates that the states large employers enjoy. This would level the field so that more people could afford to pay for healthcare.

I think the key theme is making insurance affordable for everyone. How did health care get tied up as a job benefit, shouldn't everyone have the right to affordable health insurance regardless of where they work? Or am I starting to spout commie pinko talk here.