Buffalo and D5

[elliott70]

Hi elliott70,

My name is Neutron 14, and I'm a first time caller to your show. Has anyone mentioned moving Centennial from District 10 to District 2? Its a lot closer, then we wouldnt have to drive to Mora and St. Cloud. White Bear and Forest Lake are natural rivals also. I'll hang up now and listen for your answer.

Thanks.

Whatever the Neut wants....

please stay on the line for your free T-shirt.

[HOFam'r]

Holfamer, ya its confusing becaues now your throwing out to play mostly D-10 teams while your Bison are wanting to move to D-3 . Question for you to ponder, if your district play16- 18 games and your teams play around 45-50 games a year seems to me that they are playing only around 30-40 % of there games against D-5, and I dont believe you have been blowing out D-5 compition either,, JUST THE FACTS

Unpuckeyone- You keep going back to Buffalo 'Blowing out' the competition as your response. Fact is Unpuckeyone that regardless of d5 scorebook...Buffalo is trying to grow as an association and is willing to to take it lumps against D3 or 10 or whomever instead of playing much smaller Associations. You obviously have it in for Buffalo or someone in the Association and honestly there are several who could give the wrong impression and/or be arrogant. That's not the point...the point is Buffalo needs to play Associations it's own size for competitive, scheduling, conveniece reasons...your wrong to Badger the Bison...most of us just want to play against boys are own size...

[Puckguy19]

Since the late 1990's, Buffalo has made at least four attempts to move out of District 5, but to no avail. The reasons have more to do with competitive balance and high school placement, rather than geography and travel. I do not doubt that those would be important to some of the members, but not the majority.

As seen in the eyes of the MSHSL, and due to its rapid ascent in enrollment growth, Buffalo has been kind of a nomad in high school hockey . . . AA to A to AA, Section 6 to Section 8, North Suburban to M8 with a home/away with the Classic Lake, to now a home/away with the M8.

The basic premise underlying all four (or five) requests was the desire to compete at the same level of competition that the high school program was at. If youth hockey is truly a feeder program, does it make sense to develop by playing Litchfield, Willmar, and Hutchinson, and then have to face Roseau, Moorhead, Brainerd, when you get to the high school level?

The desire was to maximize the opportunity on the schedule to play Edina, Wayzata, Armstrong, Elk River, Maple Grove, Grand Rapids, Duluth, etc., as those are the teams that are the competition in high school. It is the opinion of some, that it is better to get beat while pushing your limits, then beating up on someone and coasting for half the game.

In 1998 and 2001, the issue never made it past DD Sweezo. In 2003, a push was made to get the issue in front of the redistricting committee, and support was sought from D3 to join their District. Buffalo was asked to hold off as state-wide redistricting was on the table, and there was going to be a moratorium on all movement until then. After waiting two years, it was apparent that all administrative movement had swung to HEP, and nothing was in the works . . . oops, there goes Orono sliding into District 3, so much for a moratorium.

With no feedback, it was decided that it was time to press a little harder, offer to play an independent schedule, or 4 point games, so that we can free schedule space for potential AA opponents. But its been one stonewall after another.

It should be noted that Minnesota Hockey is a representative body, and that you should be able to submit requests for changes and advances to them without being branded a renegade. And, you should be able to anticipate a fair and measured response. In 1998 and 2001, Buffalo received that. In 2003 it did not.

I don't think the majority in Buffalo have anything against District 5, nor the Mississippi 8, its just not where we would choose to develop the program. We believe we have more in common with AA schools, rather than A schools in our vicinity, and have spent 30+ years trying to build a program to compete at that level. Even given the fluctuation is talent, and it will always ebb and flow, Buffalo is consistently top 2 or 3 in every classification in District 5, and will likely be so in the M8, for years to come. But that is not satisfying when it comes to building a program.

In the 1980's and early 1990's Buffalo and District 5 were a perfect fit on all counts. The growth of the school district and the hockey program have severly restricted that fit, and the gap will only continue to get bigger. I really hope that there is enough foresight for people to understand that "we've always done it that way" isn't good enough to justify continuing down the same path. If it was, we wouldn't have HEP.

I would like a t-shirt, also. . . and a book

[elliott70]

Since the late 1990's, Buffalo has made at least four attempts to move out of District 5, but to no avail. The reasons have more to do with competitive balance and high school placement, rather than geography and travel. I do not doubt that those would be important to some of the members, but not the majority.

As seen in the eyes of the MSHSL, and due to its rapid ascent in enrollment growth, Buffalo has been kind of a nomad in high school hockey . . . AA to A to AA, Section 6 to Section 8, North Suburban to M8 with a home/away with the Classic Lake, to now a home/away with the M8.

The basic premise underlying all four (or five) requests was the desire to compete at the same level of competition that the high school program was at. If youth hockey is truly a feeder program, does it make sense to develop by playing Litchfield, Willmar, and Hutchinson, and then have to face Roseau, Moorhead, Brainerd, when you get to the high school level?

The desire was to maximize the opportunity on the schedule to play Edina, Wayzata, Armstrong, Elk River, Maple Grove, Grand Rapids, Duluth, etc., as those are the teams that are the competition in high school. It is the opinion of some, that it is better to get beat while pushing your limits, then beating up on someone and coasting for half the game.

In 1998 and 2001, the issue never made it past DD Sweezo. In 2003, a push was made to get the issue in front of the redistricting committee, and support was sought from D3 to join their District. Buffalo was asked to hold off as state-wide redistricting was on the table, and there was going to be a moratorium on all movement until then. After waiting two years, it was apparent that all administrative movement had swung to HEP, and nothing was in the works . . . oops, there goes Orono sliding into District 3, so much for a moratorium.

With no feedback, it was decided that it was time to press a little harder, offer to play an independent schedule, or 4 point games, so that we can free schedule space for potential AA opponents. But its been one stonewall after another.

It should be noted that Minnesota Hockey is a representative body, and that you should be able to submit requests for changes and advances to them without being branded a renegade. And, you should be able to anticipate a fair and measured response. In 1998 and 2001, Buffalo received that. In 2003 it did not.

I don't think the majority in Buffalo have anything against District 5, nor the Mississippi 8, its just not where we would choose to develop the program. We believe we have more in common with AA schools, rather than A schools in our vicinity, and have spent 30+ years trying to build a program to compete at that level. Even given the fluctuation is talent, and it will always ebb and flow, Buffalo is consistently top 2 or 3 in every classification in District 5, and will likely be so in the M8, for years to come. But that is not satisfying when it comes to building a program.

In the 1980's and early 1990's Buffalo and District 5 were a perfect fit on all counts. The growth of the school district and the hockey program have severly restricted that fit, and the gap will only continue to get bigger. I really hope that there is enough foresight for people to understand that "we've always done it that way" isn't good enough to justify continuing down the same path. If it was, we wouldn't have HEP.

I would like a t-shirt, also. . . and a book

The T-shirt is 'in the mail'.

Email me about a book.

[puckeyone]

Hofamer ,nope, have nothing against the Bison, just triing to find the logic. first you state its not about blowing out the competition,.and you want to move for competitive, scheduling and convience, well if your playing competitive games it doesnt matter who its against, whether its a small town or the largest city, it can be only used if you have blown out the compition for years on end, and from what ive seen thats not the point, so you can throw that one right out the window.. Second you state for scheduling, i believe scheduling is basically the same all over you pick up the phone or sit at a meeting and schedule the games , NO BIG DEAL,. Third you state for convience, well wouldnt everybody in this world like it to convienent, but this is the real world and you cannot expect everything to be convienent just for you and your hockey world,
So now ive knocked all three reasons you stated for Buffalo to move,, whats next,,,, oooppps forgot you somebody stated that have to be able to go up against the Moorheads and Roseaus, well then move to D-15 and D-16, and see what travel is all about,

[HOFam'r]

Hofamer ,nope, have nothing against the Bison, just triing to find the logic. first you state its not about blowing out the competition,.and you want to move for competitive, scheduling and convience, well if your playing competitive games it doesnt matter who its against, whether its a small town or the largest city, it can be only used if you have blown out the compition for years on end, and from what ive seen thats not the point, so you can throw that one right out the window.. Second you state for scheduling, i believe scheduling is basically the same all over you pick up the phone or sit at a meeting and schedule the games , NO BIG DEAL,. Third you state for convience, well wouldnt everybody in this world like it to convienent, but this is the real world and you cannot expect everything to be convienent just for you and your hockey world,
So now ive knocked all three reasons you stated for Buffalo to move,, whats next,,,, oooppps forgot you somebody stated that have to be able to go up against the Moorheads and Roseaus, well then move to D-15 and D-16, and see what travel is all about,

Unpuckeyone- Your not understanding what everyone on this thread is talking about and lucky for me...I am the one you have decided to direct your ridicules arguments toward.

Your not getting the fact that Buffalo has a larger Association and should be playing Associations of similiar size. Do you think Centennial would be happy in d5? Your not getting that Buffalo plays only a few competitive games per team each season in District and your not getting that Buffalo is an outer ring suberb and not a farming community anymore. In the meantime everyone reading this thread is getting that you have animosity and possible jealousy toward the Buffalo Association.

The four season previous to last year Buffalo lost a total of 4 Bantam A games within the District...I would say there is something wrong with the competition when that happens. Buffalo like most larger Association looks to develop the majority of its HS players from that team. Most solid second year bantam players are playing HighSchool Hockey at all d5 Associations...with the exception of Buffalo...

Regarding scheduling...Many Associations within d5 have trouble fielding an appropiate number of teams for Buffalo teams to play...associations of the same size can and do field those teams...For instance, Buffalo has been playing D3 Bantam C for several years....Lastly, MN Hock is investigating realignment to eliminate travel for several associations not just Buffalo.

Somehow, Unpuckeyone you are feeling that your opinions make sense. Well, while your entitled to them.... However, it is highly unlikely anyone else thinks much of them. Please read the history provided by Puckguy19 and you'll better understand that Buffalo has been very mindful of the rules and although he is way too nice...the response to Buffalo have been vague with not alot of thought... at best. I think Buffalo deserves a yay or nay...and if nay deserves a better explanation why... so at least they can understand the POV of MN Hock.

[puckeyone]

this is not about you and me Hofamer, it is about what is best for everyone, in D-5 and Mn Hockey district alignments, your comments are biased as anyone can see, your comment that you are a large association, well that has NO bearing on that at all, its how you can compete, . You talk about up untill last year about the Bantam program and how good the Bison were, yes they have been at the top but you dont bring up lasy year, , are the Bison falling or the rest of D-5 catching up.. I remember posts and some scores last year and i do believe youy bantam team posted a tie with the River Lakes squad which many of you in bison countryhave ridiculed in the past and say you dont want to play them .. wether your a large association or small you can develop players anyway and anyhow ,,,,,,, and to show your ingnorance your stament about not being in a farming community has absululty no bearing on this conversation at all,,,,, if it did then you better change your mascot because the BISON dont belong in the city, they need open country to roam around,, aslong as Mn Hockey does not want to realign the districts , D-5 is where you should be,, but WE do AGREE that MN Hockey should get the ball roilling and not submit to the politics to get this done and soon, no more talk , GIT R DONE

[HOFam'r]

this is not about you and me Hofamer, it is about what is best for everyone, in D-5 and Mn Hockey district alignments, your comments are biased as anyone can see, your comment that you are a large association, well that has NO bearing on that at all, its how you can compete, . You talk about up untill last year about the Bantam program and how good the Bison were, yes they have been at the top but you dont bring up lasy year, , are the Bison falling or the rest of D-5 catching up.. I remember posts and some scores last year and i do believe youy bantam team posted a tie with the River Lakes squad which many of you in bison countryhave ridiculed in the past and say you dont want to play them .. wether your a large association or small you can develop players anyway and anyhow ,,,,,,, and to show your ingnorance your stament about not being in a farming community has absululty no bearing on this conversation at all,,,,, if it did then you better change your mascot because the BISON dont belong in the city, they need open country to roam around,, aslong as Mn Hockey does not want to realign the districts , D-5 is where you should be,, but WE do AGREE that MN Hockey should get the ball roilling and not submit to the politics to get this done and soon, no more talk , GIT R DONE

OMG-you cannot be serious??? Two years ago Bison outshot RL 81-0 in a game I saw...yes last years teams was down a little but your wrong...it is about Association size because that is how the MSHSL levels the playing field and so should MN Hock.

Obviously, you are a Bison hater...and that's ok but you should consider rethinking your hostility and make a point that makes some sense...

[RLStars]

Obviously, you are a Bison hater...and that's ok but you should consider rethinking your hostility and make a point that makes some sense...

OMG Famer, every time someone doesn't bow down to your opinion or your Bison, they are automatically branded a Buffalo hater with an axe to grind. Get over yourself. Nobody cares that much about the state of Bison hockey as much as you think, unless you're from Buffalo. Remember, according to you I was the president and organizer of the St. Cloud Alliance that was apparently assembled to screw the Bison out of their rightful place at the top of section 8aa. As I recall, I gave my opinion as to the playoff rankings last season and didn't have your team ranked high enough for you. Some other board members also placed your Bison where I did and all of a sudden, the conspiracy was born and we have now become eternal Bison haters in your eyes.

From a different perspective many in d5 like very much the fact that teams in their Association get to play Buffalo twice a season. Many have circled these dates on their calender.

You also think many in D5 mark their calender in anticipation of the Buffalo games? Give me a break and get over yourself.

I think pointing fingers or believing that Buffalo feels they play better hockey then anyone else is ridicules.

You use words like "get to play" then make the statement like the quote above in the same paragraph! Wow, you're in a purple haze, my friend.

[puckeyone]

Hofamr,yes it is true a 3-3 tie i believe last year and do you relize that River Lakes is in the same section as the Bison are, so the last comment from you on doing it the way the High school does , well that does not make any sense, since your Bison, River Lakes and MAML all from d-5 are in the same section.... I got one for you maybe Mn Hockey should just do it the easy way and say the districts will be the same as the high school sections, seem to me that this is what your saying, would this make the Bison feel good

[Puckguy19]

I got one for you maybe Mn Hockey should just do it the easy way and say the districts will be the same as the high school sections, seem to me that this is what your saying, would this make the Bison feel good

I don't know if its the easy way, but it certainly makes enough sense to be worthy of consideration. I know Dave Hendrickson proposed it a few years back, and it wasn't met with much support.

[Silent But Deadly]

From a different perspective many in d5 like very much the fact that teams in their Association get to play Buffalo twice a season. Many have circled these dates on their calender.

You also think many in D5 mark their calender in anticipation of the Buffalo games? Give me a break and get over yourself.

RLStars,

I hate to burst your bubble but I regularly discuss hockey issues with the past president of a D5 association. That past president is a current D5 boardmember. He told me that one reason that D5 boardmembers are opposed to Buffalo leaving D5 is for the exact reason HOFam'r stated. In the same way Buffalo seeks better competition, D5 teams don't want Buffalo to leave thus reducing the overall level of play in D5. Their teams anxiously look forward to playing Buffalo.

Whether you share this perspective or not it is true.

[h20]

Lakeville, now Buffalo,well at least Buffalo wont have to call on Red McCombs to keep yelling PURPLE PRIDE, some of these guys on here have enough to go around and then some,,, the world wont stop and hockey wont either if these cities remain where there at till Mn Hockey gets off thier but for Redistrictering

[inthestands]

Lot's of information going around.

I don't have a local opinion, other than what I've seen over the years from Buffalo teams. I wonder what benefit this move would create for the kids playing?

There have been comments about building a program, and the need to be outside of D5 for that to improve. I don't understand that view, but can see where the difference in competition between the youth program and the HS schedule would make some sense.

As for all the back and forth, it appears Elliot has a wide perspective, and some voting authority. Although I don't know him personally, he does have some insight that we all may not....

[HOFam'r]

Obviously, you are a Bison hater...and that's ok but you should consider rethinking your hostility and make a point that makes some sense...

OMG Famer, every time someone doesn't bow down to your opinion or your Bison, they are automatically branded a Buffalo hater with an axe to grind. Get over yourself. Nobody cares that much about the state of Bison hockey as much as you think, unless you're from Buffalo. Remember, according to you I was the president and organizer of the St. Cloud Alliance that was apparently assembled to screw the Bison out of their rightful place at the top of section 8aa. As I recall, I gave my opinion as to the playoff rankings last season and didn't have your team ranked high enough for you. Some other board members also placed your Bison where I did and all of a sudden, the conspiracy was born and we have now become eternal Bison haters in your eyes.

From a different perspective many in d5 like very much the fact that teams in their Association get to play Buffalo twice a season. Many have circled these dates on their calender.

You also think many in D5 mark their calender in anticipation of the Buffalo games? Give me a break and get over yourself.

I think pointing fingers or believing that Buffalo feels they play better hockey then anyone else is ridicules.

You use words like "get to play" then make the statement like the quote above in the same paragraph! Wow, you're in a purple haze, my friend.

LOL..RL...WOW...Guess your hostility is showing through again. No Need to bow to me...I agree Buffalo's Association is not that good...a good year for the Bison is a couple wins against Metro teams...However, within d5 Buffalo is always more than competitive. I would say Sartell and Mound are the other two 'decent' Associations within the District with Hutchinson, Delano, Willmar, STMA and MAML producing decent teams from time to time..Litchfield has a had two or three teams in the 8 years I have viewed the District but without fail River Lakes usually finishes last or close to it....

I would suggest getting out of the same HS Section as Moorhead/Roseau and others. You should spend your time lobbying the HS League to let smaller Associations like yours compete in Class A? Let's face it RL...River lakes would have hard time competing against St Cloud Cathedral or Little Falls...much less trying to beat Moorhead or Roseau.

As for your constant and passionate badgering of every word I write. It is your decision to continue to respond to my comments...I don't force you do so but it appears to me everytime you do...your angry and busting the Bisons chops about something? What is it RL??? Got a Buffalo Chip on your shoulder?

As for the Alliance...it was a fun comment and we had some with it..not nothing to hang to your hat on...or get more bitter (if possible) Look at it this way..if you were President it was probably the first time you were in charge of anything...Obviously, you failed and the Alliance has since disbanded and is now defunct.

[greybeard58]

How many scrimmage games did Buffalo teams schedule against stronger opponents? Did the teams also schedule tournaments where they were likely to run into stronger opposition.
It seems that with a good scrimmage schedule and tournament schedule you could accomplish what you want without leaving your present district and could also have a good chance advancing to a regional tournament on the good years.

[RLStars]

How many scrimmage games did Buffalo teams schedule against stronger opponents? Did the teams also schedule tournaments where they were likely to run into stronger opposition.
It seems that with a good scrimmage schedule and tournament schedule you could accomplish what you want without leaving your present district and could also have a good chance advancing to a regional tournament on the good years.

Oh no, another "HATER" to add to Famers list.

[Silent But Deadly]

How many scrimmage games did Buffalo teams schedule against stronger opponents? Did the teams also schedule tournaments where they were likely to run into stronger opposition.
It seems that with a good scrimmage schedule and tournament schedule you could accomplish what you want without leaving your present district and could also have a good chance advancing to a regional tournament on the good years.

Oh no, another "HATER" to add to Famers list.

RLStars....better left unsaid....you reap what you sow!

[Can't Never Tried]

RLStars....better left unsaid....you reap what you sow!

Sounds like something they say in a farming community not a suburb

[Silent But Deadly]

RLStars....better left unsaid....you reap what you sow!

Sounds like something they say in a farming community not a suburb

It does....doesn't it.....I guess that's what happens when I spend too much time in Rogers!

[HOFam'r]

How many scrimmage games did Buffalo teams schedule against stronger opponents? Did the teams also schedule tournaments where they were likely to run into stronger opposition.
It seems that with a good scrimmage schedule and tournament schedule you could accomplish what you want without leaving your present district and could also have a good chance advancing to a regional tournament on the good years.

Greybeard-

I hear yah loud and clear and I think Buffalo has done a very good job in scheduling Scrimmages with those teams that will take them. However, look at it through a quality Associations eyes....What advantage is it for them to play Buffalo?

Normally, they are playing a lesser team and using one of their open scrimmage nights to do so. If they Edina has an opportunity to scrimmage Centennial or Buffalo who do you think they choose? Our better temas have gotten scrimmages against quality teams...but our lesser teams don't get enough to help them understand the speed of the game at that level. Plus, 90% of all scrimmages are away and costing our members extra travel dollars which is not popular with many.

FYI...I don't believe RL's pathetic suggestion that you are a Bison hater. Your suggestion is good and we have and will continue to do so...but the fact is Buffalo stills needs to play Associations it's own size...

[Can't Never Tried]

RLStars....better left unsaid....you reap what you sow!

Sounds like something they say in a farming community not a suburb

It does....doesn't it.....I guess that's what happens when I spend too much time in Rogers!

When did Rogers open a farmers market??
Just like the Rogers folks to help their neighbors sell there goods
I could see where you would want to spend a lot of time in Rogers there is so much more to do then hang out at the co-op

District Play is only a portion of the schedule, you can easily control the level of competition thru scrimmages and tournaments especially at Bantams which is where it matters more anyway.
Unless as some say, you are more concerned with winning the tourney or scrimmage then playing better competition.
Travel will always be an issue.
But then that's why it's traveling!

[HOFam'r]

RLStars....better left unsaid....you reap what you sow!

Sounds like something they say in a farming community not a suburb

CNT-you must be an expert on farm community slang and slogans...especially after all the rural teams Rogers was able to dismantle last season????

[Can't Never Tried]

RLStars....better left unsaid....you reap what you sow!

Sounds like something they say in a farming community not a suburb

CNT-you must be an expert on farm community slang and slogans...especially after all the rural teams Rogers was able to dismantle last season????

Still got the Crown though

[HOFam'r]

Sounds like something they say in a farming community not a suburb

CNT-you must be an expert on farm community slang and slogans...especially after all the rural teams Rogers was able to dismantle last season????

Still got the Crown though

Yes you do...next time it would be nice if you earned it....