How did it all get so messed up

[elliott70]

Breakout..

WIth anticipation I came on here this morning hoping that you have finally jumped on the oppurtunity to state your actual affiliations, to the dissapointment of many, you have yet to man-up and profess

Did you guys have a meeting without me?

I blame Neutron, CNT, Elliott and TomAss for not letting me know. Was it breakfast at Perkins? I love their ham and cheese omelets. Now I am hungry and upset

Lunch meeting at TJuans in Bemidji.
I waited hours and no one else showed, ate and had the bill sent to HOFAMER.

[breakout]

See how things got messed up

By the way, if it is lunch we are talking about I am thinking about Brigid's Irish Pub in Bemidji. A nice pint of Guiness would do while shooting some darts. Food would be optional

[Can't Never Tried]

Breakout..

WIth anticipation I came on here this morning hoping that you have finally jumped on the oppurtunity to state your actual affiliations, to the dissapointment of many, you have yet to man-up and profess

Did you guys have a meeting without me?

I blame Neutron, CNT, Elliott and TomAss for not letting me know. Was it breakfast at Perkins? I love their ham and cheese omelets. Now I am hungry and upset

Lunch meeting at TJuans in Bemidji.
I waited hours and no one else showed, ate and had the bill sent to HOFAMER.

Must have had the Bison burger huh! man that stuff is tuff to swallow

[just the facts]

Hey boys it is time to stop the madness and get a life.

[breakout]

[/quote]

Must have had the Bison burger huh! man that stuff is tuff to swallow [/quote]


Try it without the horns..........goes down easier

[jancze5]

sorry, I didn't get the lunch invite....not that you guys, my forum pals invited me anyway. I was at Chipotle in St Paul, went for the HUGE burrito/steak/with guac...can't believe I finished it. I'm on my way to old and fat...now I need the beard

Do any of you guys drink "fat tire" beer?

Perhaps we need a new thread...best Hockey guy beer...

[Ontheice]

sorry, I didn't get the lunch invite....not that you guys, my forum pals invited me anyway. I was at Chipotle in St Paul, went for the HUGE burrito/steak/with guac...can't believe I finished it. I'm on my way to old and fat...now I need the beard

Do any of you guys drink "fat tire" beer?

Perhaps we need a new thread...best Hockey guy beer...

Don't need a thread that would be "Old Frothingslosh "

[breakout]

sorry, I didn't get the lunch invite....not that you guys, my forum pals invited me anyway. I was at Chipotle in St Paul, went for the HUGE burrito/steak/with guac...can't believe I finished it. I'm on my way to old and fat...now I need the beard

Do any of you guys drink "fat tire" beer?

Perhaps we need a new thread...best Hockey guy beer...

Interestingly, there is a favorite beer thread in the cafe forum.

I did have Moose Drool beer from Montana

[elliott70]

See how things got messed up

By the way, if it is lunch we are talking about I am thinking about Brigid's Irish Pub in Bemidji. A nice pint of Guiness would do while shooting some darts. Food would be optional

You have to have their calcanon soup.
And the stew is very good.

So the next meeting is at Brigid's Cross.

[elliott70]

sorry, I didn't get the lunch invite....not that you guys, my forum pals invited me anyway. I was at Chipotle in St Paul, went for the HUGE burrito/steak/with guac...can't believe I finished it. I'm on my way to old and fat...now I need the beard

Do any of you guys drink "fat tire" beer?

Perhaps we need a new thread...best Hockey guy beer...

Go to the "CAFE" - nonhockey forum.
Beer was fulluy discussed this late summer.
Ne posts are welcome.



And Jancze, you are invited to our 'luncheons'.

[frederick61]

I got in on this discussion late, but I have an answer to keepyourheadup's question. I have been observer of youth hockey (mostly peewee) for twenty years and have seen how Lakeville's hockey program has gone astray. I watched games at the peewee level prior to their split in the 05-06 year. Schoeder's last year at Lakeville was 04-05 and he went directly to St. Thomas and played varsity and ended up in the state tournament the following year. This did not go unnoticed by the returning parents and peewee players.

In the first year of the split, the fathers of peewee age hockey players orchestrated a move that allowed them to become coaches of the major peewee traveling teams, in part because Lakeville had started a policy of paying the coaches. But in part because it would give their sons the maximum opportunity to follow in Schoeder's footsteps. But it created politics between the fathers and culminated with one father coach benching another fathers son during a key set of games. That grudge never went away and those fathers and sons have now split the Lakeville South Bantam team apart.

I blame the association for letting it happen. They did not chose their coaches for the betterment of their program. They relied on fathers to coach. And it created these rivalries and grudges that did not go away, but festered. Outside coaches are accountable to the board and can focus on improving the program. If not, they are not brought back in next year. Father coaches have their own agendas and stay within the program. As a result, Lakeville South suffers at all levels. No matter how good they become at the high school level, over the next years, people will say they could have been better.

[keepyourheadup]

wow, and and I've been accused of being "out there"
Its over now so lets just move on.

[breakout]

I got in on this discussion late, but I have an answer to keepyourheadup's question. I have been observer of youth hockey (mostly peewee) for twenty years and have seen how Lakeville's hockey program has gone astray. I watched games at the peewee level prior to their split in the 05-06 year. Schoeder's last year at Lakeville was 04-05 and he went directly to St. Thomas and played varsity and ended up in the state tournament the following year. This did not go unnoticed by the returning parents and peewee players.

In the first year of the split, the fathers of peewee age hockey players orchestrated a move that allowed them to become coaches of the major peewee traveling teams, in part because Lakeville had started a policy of paying the coaches. But in part because it would give their sons the maximum opportunity to follow in Schoeder's footsteps. But it created politics between the fathers and culminated with one father coach benching another fathers son during a key set of games. That grudge never went away and those fathers and sons have now split the Lakeville South Bantam team apart.

I blame the association for letting it happen. They did not chose their coaches for the betterment of their program. They relied on fathers to coach. And it created these rivalries and grudges that did not go away, but festered. Outside coaches are accountable to the board and can focus on improving the program. If not, they are not brought back in next year. Father coaches have their own agendas and stay within the program. As a result, Lakeville South suffers at all levels. No matter how good they become at the high school level, over the next years, people will say they could have been better.

Interesting input.

[really?]

""""wow, and and I've been accused of being "out there"
Its over now so lets just move on.""""

Ya see??... We DO agree on some things!!

To Frederick:

Being about as intimately familiar as one can get with the incidents you speak of... (hint!) I have to agree with keepyourheadup - It's bunk. To imply that this one episode was the catalyst for 6 families moving their kids to private schools is, indeed, "out there" in the extreme. The two parents you speak of (the "sons" were never involved in that discussion or the disagreement itself - both parents are smarter than that) talked it out at the time (privately and respectfully) and agreeing to disagree, moved on. I'm sure neither has changed his opinions one bit - I'm also sure neither is dwelling on any "grudge". For my part, I wish him and his son well. (The fact is, those two parents dealt with it all to the best of their abilities and got over it a lot better and faster than a few of the other parents did...) (It should also be noted that this incident was but one very small part of what was going on with the team at the time).

I don't really believe there are any "problems" with the Lakeville hockey program. It's working like it should. The group that left (for the most part) has been close-knit for many years - Whatever they did, it was always a good bet many of them would stay together. Three of the six were [u]always[/u] destined for private school. It wasn't a surprise. One may very well have had a lot to do with LHA "politics" (show me an association that doesn't deal with that sort of departure once in a while), one seems to have followed a friend, and the last departure was always expected - and while probably "politics" again, it was completely unrelated to the first...

Bottom line is, they're gone. They made the decisions they needed to make for their families. The conjecture regarding what motivates those types of decisions and how tier #1 hockey affects association hockey, what's changing in the long run, new transfer rules, community values, etc. etc. is all very interesting and, as has been noted, it's all been beaten to death on this thread.

Everyone really should move on - It's a new season! If Frederick would like to discuss the issue further - let's have a beer! (the whole thing would bore the rest of this readership...).

[frederick61]

I don't know who knows what about what, but I do know what I have seen. If keepyourheadup thinks my answer is "out there" then tell me where I am wrong. I have mentioned no kids and laid the problem at the doorstep of a hockey board that has allowed parents and kids to turn the program into one that is not better for the overall program. If I am wrong, then I will admit it for I have no pony in this. But if I am right, then shouldn't the hockey board re-think how they are running their program.

None of these responses addressed what I have provided as an answer to the question "how did it all get so messed up". Besides, I don't drink beer. Instead I watch hockey. Last year I watched over 100 peewee hockey games. I do it because I can and because I enjoy them. I plan to watch 100 more this year including Lakeville South. By saying it's over with, you have agreed to accept status quo.

[really?]

""""I don't know who knows what about what"""",

Exactly.

Insert Twilight Zone theme music here...

I'm done.

[frederick61]

So "really?" accepts status quo. So you are satisfied with the "messed up". At least you could of asked how many non-parent coaches Lakeville North and South has had since the 05 season at the peewee A/B level. Or is it because you already know? The twilight zone theme music is playing in Lakeville.

[watchdog]

i dont know the situation first hand but i can feel it. Fred i think your on to it big time and heads up dont like the answer. problems like that can be huge if associations dont watch for it. Up north it happens nobody watches for it because they dont have too. where are you gona go? you would have to pack up and move your whole life to get away from it. one thing you have to keep in mind when dealing with this sort of thing. no matter how much of an advantage some get with playing favorites or politics its all a wash in the end. infact its better for your son to have to deal with it and make his own way. we all deal with that sort of thing in life every where we go. If your getting all the favors growing up and you stray from that little love nest life can get pretty scarey. if little johnnie heads for juniors for hockey and dad cant make the team for him or give him double ice time it might get ugly. its a rude awakening for some. the total point is your gona find that sort of thing anywhere you go. you just have to deal with it and help your kids deal with it so they understand whats happening around them.

[just the facts]

I happen to agree with Fredrick. With that being said the word is out on Lakeville hockey not to apply to coach there because the board does not support their non parent coaches. Case in point in or around 1997 Lakeville had a coach with NHL experience and took the first Lakeville hockey team to the state tournament. He was not invited back the next season and as I understand it all of the players on the team respected him. Good coaches do not want to coach in Lakeville for fear of everything.

[frederick61]

There are good hockey programs around who understand the function of the hockey board to establish and maintain standards that give every player a fair opportunity. Unfortunately more and more of the programs are falling to a take over. In the cities programs that I am familiar with, some board memebers are elected on small votes (often less then a dozen is needed). Parents with desires to be coaches elect themselves or their close circle and then control the selection of coaches especially at the peewee level. They then pass head coach position to each other until their kids have moved to Bantams.

Unfortunately, they believe that because they are competent "on ice" coaches that each player gets a fair shake. Often when I go to a tournament, I look for teams with parent head coaches and then watch those games. Most of the time, the kid is a marginal wing on the top line with the best players. The parents of the rest of the team soon realize they are paying their hard earn money to underwrite the coaches kid learning experience. They become discouraged.

Simply put, a parent coach has to be exceptional to convince other parents he is not favoring his son's play. But even if he is fair, the perception of unfairness exists and problems erupt. Then kids eventually leave and teams are decimated. The hockey board is then left with nothing in the pipe to feed their high schools. They have failed their job.

The more successful programs establish stability at the board level that allows the board to mature in its management of youth programs and as a result become experienced in handling the politics. Those programs attract large numbers and interest in the community. Most of these programs try to get and keep qualified non-parent coaches, especially at the A levels.

[keepyourheadup]

Fredrick I can see your point but I'm not certain it applies to the Lakeville south situation. The top kids in this group were very closely alligned with the coach in my situation. He was highly qualified and I felt he did an oustanding job. Were there some that would disagree?, absolutely..was one a highly placed board member..yes. Did they make up and move on? I'm not so sure. Would a non parent coach have handled the situation differently?..again hard to say. There seems to be a preference for parent coaches in our association but while it may be one factor in our meltdown there are many other factors involved. Rest assured in this case the coaches son didn't need any help.

[fromthecrease]

What Lakeville fails in, is exactly what fredrick is talking about, status quo. They have followed the path of least resistance, as we talk about the squeaky wheel and throwing it out, LHA has caved to it. They are running a country club in the south metro, in a area of growth that should be prospering like the Edina's, but they can never get over the hump. Why? Because they don't support coaches that foster development for all, it's a win at all costs. They are following the status quo, just look at the coaching staffs assembled by Lakeville teams, they all have strong ties related to the their board, heck almost all of them are on the board! When you look at the defections related to the South Bantam 'A', these kids were involved basically until the board member was plugged into the head coaching spot, the original coach left because of his job comitment and the board wanted all or nothing with him so he had to leave. These kids aren't stupid, they looked at the situation and after years of seeing these dads take advantage of the situation for the betterment of their own, they said to heck with this a left and I can't blame them for it at all! If they showed some loyalty they might get some back. It's a culmination of 6-7 years of the same b.s. and they are tired of it. I'm sure the coach's kid deserved a spot on the team this year, he better after all the years of playing at the top level and on a line with the best players when he most likely did not deserve it, but look at the cost. Lakeville hockey has suffered, kids leave because the loyalty you speak of only exists for the few and not for all. Eventually, LHA's number will dwindle, kids will start out but continue to transfer out because if you're not one of the chosen ones you don't matter. It's a shame. I wish every kid could learn to love hockey the way I have, but frankly that just isn't happening in Lakeville. It's associations like these that have St. Thomas, Holy Angels and Benilde licking their chops.

[breakout]

What Lakeville fails in, is exactly what fredrick is talking about, status quo. They have followed the path of least resistance, as we talk about the squeaky wheel and throwing it out, LHA has caved to it. They are running a country club in the south metro, in a area of growth that should be prospering like the Edina's, but they can never get over the hump. Why? Because they don't support coaches that foster development for all, it's a win at all costs. They are following the status quo, just look at the coaching staffs assembled by Lakeville teams, they all have strong ties related to the their board, heck almost all of them are on the board! When you look at the defections related to the South Bantam 'A', these kids were involved basically until the board member was plugged into the head coaching spot, the original coach left because of his job comitment and the board wanted all or nothing with him so he had to leave. These kids aren't stupid, they looked at the situation and after years of seeing these dads take advantage of the situation for the betterment of their own, they said to heck with this a left and I can't blame them for it at all! If they showed some loyalty they might get some back. It's a culmination of 6-7 years of the same b.s. and they are tired of it. I'm sure the coach's kid deserved a spot on the team this year, he better after all the years of playing at the top level and on a line with the best players when he most likely did not deserve it, but look at the cost. Lakeville hockey has suffered, kids leave because the loyalty you speak of only exists for the few and not for all. Eventually, LHA's number will dwindle, kids will start out but continue to transfer out because if you're not one of the chosen ones you don't matter. It's a shame. I wish every kid could learn to love hockey the way I have, but frankly that just isn't happening in Lakeville. It's associations like these that have St. Thomas, Holy Angels and Benilde licking their chops.

Your observations and attitudes could mirror other communinties and different sports. I watched youth football the other night. The two coaches kids either play half back or quarterback the entire game. Those coaches are in there for the wrong reason. They don't help the development and fun for all. They are helping the development of their own kids................no my kid was not on that team.

In my opinion, there should always be non-parent coaches at the A level whenever possible. There will always be some good ole boy stuff. However, non-parent coaches eliminate most of that.

[frederick61]

Fredrick I can see your point but I'm not certain it applies to the Lakeville south situation. The top kids in this group were very closely alligned with the coach in my situation. He was highly qualified and I felt he did an oustanding job. Were there some that would disagree?, absolutely..was one a highly placed board member..yes. Did they make up and move on? I'm not so sure. Would a non parent coach have handled the situation differently?..again hard to say. There seems to be a preference for parent coaches in our association but while it may be one factor in our meltdown there are many other factors involved. Rest assured in this case the coaches son didn't need any help.

You miss my point. A problem exists. You stated it most succinctly when you said "whatever happened to growing up playing with your buds and if you were good enough maybe you got a shot after high school". Parent coaches are the source of the problems and are the least manageable because of the board politics that got them the job keep them there. The solution is to fix the board and its policies regarding it's coaches especially at the A level. Hire non-parent coaches and make them responsible to the board (which eliminates parent feedback because parents almost always have their own agenda). Hire them in a timely manner for they have personal lives and by applying they have already agreed to donate much of their personal time to the association. Never do an exit interview for the coach, always do a "reup" interview so that the good coaches stay for more then one year.

"Fromthecrease" said "kids leave because the loyalty...exists for the few and not for the all". Changes starting with non-parent coaches give loyalty a chance to exist for the all. Parent coaches, even the most excellent ones, can not create that loyalty for all. They are too vulnerable.

[keepyourheadup]

Thanks Fred, but you have the events in the wrong chronilogical order. The players left first, then the coach who had stated the year before he was coming back for one last year only because he felt they had a real shot. He went so far as to bring all the returners together in late summer to get a feel of what was going to happen. The last few left after these two events. The current coach was not even on the staff when this all went down. While a nonparent coach is preferable the assocition was left with no caoch less than two weeks from tryouts. Losing one or two players is one thing...a mass defection is quite another. You could be on the mark with your theory but I feel there is a lot more to it than who the peewee A coach was. How about board members alligning themselves with the high school coach.....think that might have gotten there attention? Who knows in the end, We'll just play it out and move on.