Before & After Girls Elite League ("BAGEL")

hockeyheaven · Post by **hockeyheaven** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:39 pm

Given that the MSHSL allows student athletes in grades 7-12 eligible for varsity sports. Does anyone know of anyone who (from these larger schools like Edina, Wayzata, White Bear, etc.) who made a successful challenge to this policy of not letting underclassman participate? If so, what was their approach?

Rocket78 · Post by **Rocket78** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:38 pm

.[/quote]Unless my memory is bad, all the metro AA schools in the state tourney (Burnsville, Roseville, Stillwater, North Metro, BSM) did or will allow 8th graders to play. I suspect (but am not sure) that Mayo, GR and Bemidji did/will allow it as well.[/quote]

Rochester still is not in a position to properly feed the three high school teams with enough 9-12 graders. Last year our 14U dissolved in order to feed the HS teams. We have enough girls for 14U this year but the team will be light. Mayo will have one 8th grader from what I have been told, Century will have a 7th grader and JM has no younger girls moving up. There is probably about 15-20 14U eligible girls playing on the three HS teams.

Northland · Post by **Northland** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:41 am

Rocket ... if your talking about the girls that are 9th graders and still eligable for U14, most would rather play HS even if JV.

.

Thunderbird77 · Post by **Thunderbird77** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:43 pm

My observation over the years is that, in Minn, girls that do not play varsity hockey at the first opportunity are at a disadvantage. If you look at the NDC rosters, it appears the advantage goes to the girls that have had at least one (and more likely two) years of varsity experience. There has never been a JV player on an NDC roster, so in this aspect, U14 may be a better place to be than JV.

On another vein, a parent of a player who made varsity as an 8th grader at one of the three schools mentioned that no longer allows it, told me that her daughters 8th grade season was tough. She ended up on the third line, causing much questioning and bad feelings. I did have a coach of a team that doesn't allow 8th graders tell me that they would not change the policy at this point because it would cause hard feelings with current team members that didn't get this opportunity.

bigred · Post by **bigred** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:08 pm

hockeyheaven wrote:Given that the MSHSL allows student athletes in grades 7-12 eligible for varsity sports. Does anyone know of anyone who (from these larger schools like Edina, Wayzata, White Bear, etc.) who made a successful challenge to this policy of not letting underclassman participate? If so, what was their approach?

ALL SPORTS ALLOW 7-12 graders HOWEVER it is up to each individual coach of each sport at each school to decide who he will pick for his teams and there is nothing anyone can do about it. One coach I know (soccer) cut 12 Jrs/Srs to allow "phenom" 7-8th graders to play V/JV (even though there was 5 lower level HS teams (9th A 9th B etc), thus displacing the older girls and they now have NO team to play on. I also know of other coaches who will ALWAYS take the older girl if abilities are similar. Our previous girls hockey coach, we have a new one this year, so who knows? banned all 7th graders UNLESS you were good enough to make the starting line on V. anything less than that, have fun in U12 where MOST 7th graders belong. We did have ONE kid who made the team as a 7th grader is a soph now and very strong. They also HIGHLY encouraged 8th-9ths to play U14 because of playing time. We are too deep and you would ride the bench unless you are an outstanding player as a 8th-9th, we graduated only 1 skater adn 1 goalie total this past year, the rest are returning....and IMO U14A leagues are tougher than most JV's. ANd you get to play much more. If you are a phenom, that is another story. But bottom line, each coach can roster whomever he wants 7-12 on varsity and that is the rule in MN...Maybe specific schools have altered the rules for their schools, who knows?

jumpstart · Post by **jumpstart** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:29 am

jumpstart wrote:
SEMetro wrote:Lots of discussion about high schools that will not let 8th graders play varsity. Besides Edina, how many high school teams will not let 8th graders play? Any?
White Bear Lake to date has not allowed 8th graders to try out for JV or Varsity.

WBL is going to allow an 8th grader to try out under their "Exceptional Athlete" policy. Have heard mostly negative feedback on this, but will have to see how it all shakes out.

bigred · Post by **bigred** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:40 pm

Chaska had 6 8th graders (on JV/V) last year including one who is an elite player, they have also had one player, Catie Ladner on V since 7th grade, she is a 10th grader now.

We have had so many coaching changes that the (individual coaching preferences) rules change, but I know they are highly encouraging ALL 7-9ths to play U12-U14 rather than get limited playing time on V/JV. But each kid gets to choose. In the past they didn't let 7th graders try out unless they could make Varsity top 5. (Above player mentioned, did that.) In the past 3-5 years I think we have had only 2 7th graders play and one transferred to Tonka in 8th grade. IMO it is better to play U12/U14 than sit on the bench on V/JV but if you are seriously outstanding...then U14 would not be your best choice. Most teams have their own rules regarding who can try out. it all boils down to supply and demand...and each school has different needs.

gopher25 · Post by **gopher25** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:53 pm

jumpstart wrote:
jumpstart wrote:
SEMetro wrote:Lots of discussion about high schools that will not let 8th graders play varsity. Besides Edina, how many high school teams will not let 8th graders play? Any?
White Bear Lake to date has not allowed 8th graders to try out for JV or Varsity.
WBL is going to allow an 8th grader to try out under their "Exceptional Athlete" policy. Have heard mostly negative feedback on this, but will have to see how it all shakes out.

I don't know if this board should be used to Isolate a single instance for a kid. Nobody knows what is going on in white bear except for the parents of the player and coaches. I don't know if saying "heard negative feedback" is appropriate. Keep in mind we are talking about a 14 year old kid here. And if it is the same kid that I am thinking of and have seen play numerous times she could probably start on any varsity teams' 1st line D, so maybe they are actually following the rule for what is used for, an "exceptional athlete"

jumpstart · Post by **jumpstart** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:46 pm

gopher25 wrote:
jumpstart wrote:
jumpstart wrote: White Bear Lake to date has not allowed 8th graders to try out for JV or Varsity.
WBL is going to allow an 8th grader to try out under their "Exceptional Athlete" policy. Have heard mostly negative feedback on this, but will have to see how it all shakes out.

I don't know if this board should be used to Isolate a single instance for a kid. Nobody knows what is going on in white bear except for the parents of the player and coaches. I don't know if saying "heard negative feedback" is appropriate. Keep in mind we are talking about a 14 year old kid here. And if it is the same kid that I am thinking of and have seen play numerous times she could probably start on any varsity teams' 1st line D, so maybe they are actually following the rule for what is used for, an "exceptional athlete"

1) Was simply updating my prior statement that WBL had not yet allowed an 8th grader to try out. 2) Yes we are talking about a 13 or 14 yr old who is going to have to be mature enough to handle varsity. 3) Think a few more people know what is going on than the parents and coaches. 4) Never said anything negative about the player. She is a good player. 5) Never said they weren't following the rule.

hockeya1a · Post by **hockeya1a** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:39 pm

Getting an opportunity to play at the Varsity level is what every kid in sports strives for.
Having had a kid in the 8th grade make the varsity team, I will tell you from personal experience that physically most of those exceptional players will do fine but it can be tough for them on them on the emotional side. The maturity difference is sometimes a challenge and not for the faint of heart. Would my kid have changed it for the world! Not a chance. But she is not shy and will not back down from anyone.

Melvin44 · Post by **Melvin44** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:48 pm

The 8th grader in question is being allowed because of the defections of 7 or 8 girls to hockey to HM, TG, etc. Is she an elite player? I don't think she's there yet. Is she a top 4-6 varsity defender? Yes! The only people that will complain are the parents of the girls whom spot she might take. My advise is to tell your daughters to come prepared to tryouts and earn the spot!

Would she benefit playing in a U14 watered down league? absolutely not. When the higher ups took away the U15 level they took away the talent pool. Should be U19, U16, U13, U10 that way a girl not good enough to play varsity has an opportunity to play more games and hope to make the team the following year. Not just make it because a talented player couldn't tryout.

My daughter wasn't allowed to tryout in 8th grade and I'm ok with this decision as U14 used to be stronger than JV. I also heard that if she wasn't allowed she was going to switch to Hill. John Anderson will only take the best girls and if your daughter is better she will make it!

Stillwater, Hill, BSM, etc allow 8th graders to play.

joehockey · Post by **joehockey** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:03 pm

I think the girls of WB and Edina are lucky that they don't have to play HS immediately. So many associations lose their top girls becuase the HS is so thin on players. A 7th or 8th grader can really benefit playing U14 as the mental game of HS is tough for many young players who aren't yet mentally tough. Also at HS you get little skill development and a small number of games as compared to U14.

So back to the thread how has the first year of the BAGEL League gone - will this become the standard process utilized by top players to prepare for the HS season?

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:14 am

Too many myths about HS vs youth hockey. Every assn./HS scenario different. Can't make one rule be best for all. Would be nice if you could. Argument made about more skill development & game time at one level vs another is tough comparison unless you really know the specifics for each program, approach, true ice time allocated to HS vs youth, look at playing time in games at HS vs. youth levels. More shorter games may not result in more time vs fewer longer games (+ must consider 4-period per-day & 100 period-per year HS setup good or bad), but playing time in either scenario + opponents + teammates + coaching + etc. should be considered as well. Each kid is different, each program (HS & youth) is different, and it's so easy to say one way is always best in every scenario but that simply isn't true. Ideally a kid would have a choice youth vs. HS, but that's not always or even often the case either. And many don't know what to ask or how to do their homework about this decision. Many miss the emotional consideration as well which should almost be as important as anything. Not all kids are ready for HS hockey in 7th grade even if they have the talent. All we can do is try to create the most opportunities for kids. Single worst thing that ever impacted all of this (Hs vs youth) was the U15 age classification change to U14 I believe. I'm very worried about this transition age in girls hockey and I think we need to do more to address the JV/HS & U14/Youth crossover/transition age. Something better must be able to be done, but I don't even know what for certain the answer is.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:25 am

ghshockeyfan wrote:Too many myths about HS vs youth hockey. Every assn./HS scenario different. Can't make one rule be best for all. Would be nice if you could. Argument made about more skill development & game time at one level vs another is tough comparison unless you really know the specifics for each program, approach, true ice time allocated to HS vs youth, look at playing time in games at HS vs. youth levels. More shorter games may not result in more time vs fewer longer games (+ must consider 4-period per-day & 100 period-per year HS setup good or bad), but playing time in either scenario + opponents + teammates + coaching + etc. should be considered as well. Each kid is different, each program (HS & youth) is different, and it's so easy to say one way is always best in every scenario but that simply isn't true. Ideally a kid would have a choice youth vs. HS, but that's not always or even often the case either. And many don't know what to ask or how to do their homework about this decision. Many miss the emotional consideration as well which should almost be as important as anything. Not all kids are ready for HS hockey in 7th grade even if they have the talent. All we can do is try to create the most opportunities for kids. Single worst thing that ever impacted all of this (Hs vs youth) was the U15 age classification change to U14 I believe. I'm very worried about this transition age in girls hockey and I think we need to do more to address the JV/HS & U14/Youth crossover/transition age. Something better must be able to be done, but I don't even know what for certain the answer is.

ghs, I agree with all of your points about each program/high school being different and what's best for one girl may not be best for another, etc. I'm a little confused, though, when you make these points first and then say at the end that "something better" must be done to address the crossover/transition age. Isn't that what you were talking about up until then, when you said, "Ideally a kid would have a choice youth vs. HS"? "Something better" seems to imply you favor new rules, which seems to go against giving kids a choice. I am personally in favor of giving girls a choice, except perhaps in situations where the community programs are so large that the high school coaches in those communites want to reserve their varsity spots for the girls who are actually in their school (9th-12th grade). Coaches in smaller schools or those in areas with fewer numbers do not have that luxury, and they may want to take the very talented 7th or 8th graders to help them be more competitive.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:54 pm

MNHockeyFan wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:Too many myths about HS vs youth hockey. Every assn./HS scenario different. Can't make one rule be best for all. Would be nice if you could. Argument made about more skill development & game time at one level vs another is tough comparison unless you really know the specifics for each program, approach, true ice time allocated to HS vs youth, look at playing time in games at HS vs. youth levels. More shorter games may not result in more time vs fewer longer games (+ must consider 4-period per-day & 100 period-per year HS setup good or bad), but playing time in either scenario + opponents + teammates + coaching + etc. should be considered as well. Each kid is different, each program (HS & youth) is different, and it's so easy to say one way is always best in every scenario but that simply isn't true. Ideally a kid would have a choice youth vs. HS, but that's not always or even often the case either. And many don't know what to ask or how to do their homework about this decision. Many miss the emotional consideration as well which should almost be as important as anything. Not all kids are ready for HS hockey in 7th grade even if they have the talent. All we can do is try to create the most opportunities for kids. Single worst thing that ever impacted all of this (Hs vs youth) was the U15 age classification change to U14 I believe. I'm very worried about this transition age in girls hockey and I think we need to do more to address the JV/HS & U14/Youth crossover/transition age. Something better must be able to be done, but I don't even know what for certain the answer is.
ghs, I agree with all of your points about each program/high school being different and what's best for one girl may not be best for another, etc. I'm a little confused, though, when you make these points first and then say at the end that "something better" must be done to address the crossover/transition age. Isn't that what you were talking about up until then, when you said, "Ideally a kid would have a choice youth vs. HS"? "Something better" seems to imply you favor new rules, which seems to go against giving kids a choice. I am personally in favor of giving girls a choice, except perhaps in situations where the community programs are so large that the high school coaches in those communites want to reserve their varsity spots for the girls who are actually in their school (9th-12th grade). Coaches in smaller schools or those in areas with fewer numbers do not have that luxury, and they may want to take the very talented 7th or 8th graders to help them be more competitive.

I should know better than to post at 1AM! - my point about something better may be the ability to actually make the rules less restrictive in the U14/JV team/player classification to facilitate more opportunities that are best for development of more of the players. The current restrictions on cross-over play or participation for this age range is maybe blocking even better solutions - but I could be wrong. It's funny - I often support more or less regulation for different aspects of hockey as I think if you never try to make things better (going either direction) you may never actually find a best possible solution & instead just the first that was implemented. How often do we get things perfect the first time when it comes to volatile/ever evolving/changing landscapes like girls hockey? U14 may have been an attempt for example to try something to make things better but in MN that backfired even though it may have been best for the rest of the US, etc.

Thunderbird77 · Post by **Thunderbird77** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:13 am

GHS -

Why do you think the changeover from U15 to U14 backfired in Minn? Clearly, it pushes all girls to the HS level a year earlier. What do you think were the unintended consequences of this? If more players could play youth, wouldn't it put pressure on locales with a smaller number of players to pull-up? It also appears we have a higher number of JV teams. Isn't that a good thing? Please share your perspective. Inquiring minds want to know.

hshockeyfan91 · Post by **hshockeyfan91** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:56 am

My daughter plays in a smaller program that does not have a JV team. I think not adding a JV team a number of years ago was a huge mistake. The Girls youth program is combined with a number with several other associations. I think that is great when we're talking U10 or U12. However, once we get to U14 then the lack of a tie to a single program hurts, and kids drop out. Very few new (or less expereinced) kids tryout for the HS team because they know that it's Varsity or nothing.

When I compare this to sports like soccer, lacrosse, track, basketball, etc., the non-Varsity teams in these programs allow kids to try a sport - some of them advance to being significant Varsity contibutors over time. In Hockey, with no JV, kids just quit and the numbers never grow.

I know we're talking about youth associations and high school sports that are not coordinated efforts - i.e. the HS chooses to do what it does without necessarily having any coordination with the youth program. Still, if I could wave a magic wand, I would say that there shouldn't be any U14 programs where girls have a JV option - and every hs sponsoring a Varsity team should be strong encouraged to offer a JV option. I would expect that someone from a large program (Wayzata, Edina, etc.) might see this differently, but not having a JV really hurts. Frankly, I don't see any option for our community over the next 5 years other than combining the Varsity program (similar to the North Metro thing). I think if a JV team had been added a few years back that things might be different. Any thoughts?

xwildfan · Post by **xwildfan** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:11 pm

Re JV v U14. I would be interested to know how many players actually moved up to the varsity after playing a year or two on the JV. It seems that (unlike the boys), the JV players simply stay on JV and new players from the youth programs pass them by and play varsity. Not saying this is a bad thing; especially if having a JV allows more girls to play hockey. But it seems that the JV level does not prepare a player to play at the varsity level. But in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter if a kid plays varsity or JV. Once their final HS season ends, 99.9% of all players are at the same level regarding future college or vocational plans.

Also, it would be interesting to determine how many recipients of four year scholarships, have ended up with exceptional jobs. I would be interested in seeing a list of players who have become physicians, lawyers, dentists, teachers, nurses, finance, etc.

Hux, you probably would have a good idea in ths area.

Thunderbird77 · Post by **Thunderbird77** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:52 pm

To answer the question of how many 4-year athletes (leave out scholarship so we can include the Ivys) have gone on to get good jobs, I would say pretty high. Any school that is going to invest that much in someone is going to protect their investment. Support for scheduling, tutoring, study tables are just a few of the examples that are routinely supplied. Once on the job market, collegiate athletic experience gives you an edge. Potential employers know that you have excellent time management skills, are competitive and willing to put in extra effort to achieve your goals. The halo effect lasts. Just this week, I met someone new. After we shook hands she mentioned that she had heard I was an athlete in college. I graduated 25 years ago and almost NEVER talk about it. I would be much more likely to talk hockey these days. Everyone knows my kids play hockey.

Hux · Post by **Hux** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:18 pm

xwildfan wrote:Re JV v U14. I would be interested to know how many players actually moved up to the varsity after playing a year or two on the JV. It seems that (unlike the boys), the JV players simply stay on JV and new players from the youth programs pass them by and play varsity. Not saying this is a bad thing; especially if having a JV allows more girls to play hockey. But it seems that the JV level does not prepare a player to play at the varsity level. But in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter if a kid plays varsity or JV. Once their final HS season ends, 99.9% of all players are at the same level regarding future college or vocational plans.

Also, it would be interesting to determine how many recipients of four year scholarships, have ended up with exceptional jobs. I would be interested in seeing a list of players who have become physicians, lawyers, dentists, teachers, nurses, finance, etc.

Hux, you probably would have a good idea in ths area.

Hmmm, that would be pretty cool. Take each D1 commitments list and update it two years after graduation with current job.

I have several friends who had full rides and were grads of 2000 and 2001. Two are D1 college coaches, one is a Vice President of a small company, three have since received their Masters and teach special needs and coach high school. (And I wouldn't consider being a lawyer exceptional, as they seem to be a dime a dozen.

gopher25 · Post by **gopher25** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:32 pm

Does anyone know how the U16/U19 BAGEL leages ended up? Were there winners of the league or was it just for fun....

OntheEdge · Post by **OntheEdge** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:02 am

gopher25 wrote:Does anyone know how the U16/U19 BAGEL leages ended up? Were there winners of the league or was it just for fun....

Fun yes. It was developmental so there were no champions. I know that in some of the nonregistered team games if one team was short the other team lent them some players so everyone got equal playing time. From what I could tell everyone was a winner.

Another poster asked if this was going to be the standard ongoing. I have my doubts. I think the cost and the paperwork to register teams with USA/MH might lead OS to go back to what they did last year which was hold a few tryouts to evaluate the players and then organize nonregistered teams for optimum competition. Then at least all of the 9th graders could play regardless of whether or not they played HS hockey the previous year.

xwildfan · Post by **xwildfan** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:59 am

I watched a couple of BAGEL games. They seemed very low key; not a lot of intensity. Also, only a couple extra players on the bench. They seemed very much like pick-up games that happened to have referees.

I was of the impression that it was an attempt to imitate the boy's elite league. Games very different than the boy's side.

A couple possible suggestions: have all the games at one or two locations on weekends only. Early weekday games tough to get good attendance.
Allow 90 minutes per game; this would allow for full length games.

Somehow, get the T-Breds, SSM, and perhaps the WI Wild, Madison Caps, Team IL on board. That would be a great fall league.

This would be a logistical challenge; don't even know if it would be possible.

A final challenge would be to find enough players that would be dedicated and take the fall league serious. I think the boys are much more committed in the fall.

joehockey · Post by **joehockey** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:28 pm

Watching a few games at the BAGEL League, Wakota HS League and games with CODP against Thoroughbreds and Team Wisconsin it would appear there are to many things going on for to few girls committed to playing a high caliber of fall hockey.

The BAGEL did appear hurt by the early games - tough to make if in a fall sport and you had to fight rush hour. It is a great concept with the suggestions made above. It could develop into the Elite league with earlier planning, kids, parents and coaches were all trying to figure this out - good news is now people under stand a process and if coaches know that this is a go in the spring it will be great! Registering with MN Hockey is a great thing for established teams. The CODP team has only played Thoroughbreds, Team Wisconsin and went to Cleveland tournament. It would make sense for CODP to compete in the BAGEL. It is also a good thing for U16 teams if they want to play in USA hockey tournaments like SSM, Stevens Point and others.....there are good U16 teams that are great competition Wisconsin Wild, Team Illinois, SSM U16.

The Wakota League is off from its pace of two years ago, slower last year and slower this year. It is giving a great chance for more JV or young players to play but it appears fewer and fewer top Varsity players skating. I hope it continues as it is a great low cost tune up for HS - but top players are not going to improve playing this level of competition.

xwildfan · Post by **xwildfan** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:36 pm

Perhaps the way to go would be to first contact the established teams; T-Breds, SSM, WI Wild, etc., about their availabilty in the fall. Then have a try-out for all girls interested in participating and committed to playing in an advanced fall league. Make the try-out fee somewhat steep and partially refundable depending on player attendance. The goal would be to try to determine who really wants to play. You may only end up with one or two teams in addition to the established teams. But I think that's a better solution than having a half a dozen teams made up of players with questionable dedication to the fall league.

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